To me, the response to the mild tokenism of a trans person has been a wild overreaction. But I'm willing to concede -- to offer trust -- that trans allies who are strongly denouncing the character's representation may be truthful. If Beamdog were to change things, would many of these former denouncers change their opinions? This isn't all about Beamdog. It's about the reaction of people who consider themselves anti-SJWs and GGs. If they're truly good, they'll show it when offered a hand.
On a related note, can we please get rid of Purudaya and Shawne? They have been incredibly annoying about this whole issue, and I frankly never want to read another one of their hateful posts again.
Different strokes I s'pose. The two posters you reference have been anything but hateful or annoying and, in fact, if asked I'd say they are speaking the most sense in all of this ridiculous, manufactured madness.
On topic, don't cowtow to the persecuted whiners, Beamdog. Do that and they'll just find another perceived slight and mount the ol' soapbox again.
To me, the response to the mild tokenism of a trans person has been a wild overreaction. But I'm willing to concede -- to offer trust -- that trans allies who are strongly denouncing the character's representation may be truthful. If Beamdog were to change things, would many of these former denouncers change their opinions? This isn't all about Beamdog. It's about the reaction of people who consider themselves anti-SJWs and GGs. If they're truly good, they'll show it when offered a hand.
these are the kind of opinions that come along with the whole discussion...The thought of giving in to that makes me sick!
There are people refuting her in the thread. Besides, Beamdog wouldn't be giving into the poster: If the character were re-written, the poster would still want no trans people in the game. The trans person would still be in the game.
Exactly. Thank you again @typo_tilly for being sane and rational.
There's always going to be extremists out there. The worst thing you can do is lump everyone else in with the extremists, and this is something that has happened constantly, and it needs to stop.
I think it was super reductive to even implement such thing into the expansion. It just seems very unnecessary. I am a huge supporter of LGBT rights and I belong to this society, however I kind of dislike how every modern rpg game must implement some of that stuff in the story. The greatness of BG lies in how ancient the story feels, yet how you can apply it to modern problems. I think Beamdog kind of can't get it. Like their EE NPC feel so much more modern than the rest, they couldn't even make portraits suiting the rest, not even talking about the dialogues. Again, I haven't played the expansion yet, but from the trailer it seems very linear, which is not what BG is supposed to be. Is it like icewind dale or more like original BG?
I consider myself socially conservative, and I don't particularly like the politicization of games in general, so I wouldn't say I am 100% behind Beamdog's decisions in this case.
However, the level of vitriol and hate from a small (I hope) minority genuinely shocks and saddens me. I am too busy (mods are volunteers, not Beamdog agents as some people seem to think) irl to read every thread on this issue, but I sincerely hope this minority are all newcomers to the forum rather than our typically wonderful community.
It is one thing to complain about aspects of a game you don't like, it is another to launch a hate campaign focused on 0.01% of a game, and execute it with such poisonous determination.
So although I don't personally support everything Beamdog did with SoD, I absolutely oppose this hateful attempt to censor them because some people don't want to face issues they find uncomfortable.
Thus I respectfully disagree with @typo_tilly and I hope Beamdog makes the moral stand to defend their freedom of expression.
Thank you for the well-thought out post, Tilly. It's good to see cool heads amidst all this drama.
On a related note, can we please get rid of Purudaya and Shawne? They have been incredibly annoying about this whole issue, and I frankly never want to read another one of their hateful posts again.
Lol, don't worry – I've got a meeting to get off to. I won't be able to terrorize you for a while
I think Mizhena should be fully replaced by a new character. I think it should be a male priest of cyric called Insecuritus who once saw a trans person in his village and decided to burn it to the ground because seeing that one trans person convinced him that there was a vast conspiracy taking place where a nefarious group were trying to brainwash the masses with their political agenda.
I would like to propose a different character. A stumpy, blue-haired female named Victimoria who was indoctrinated by the local dried-up hag about the systemic oppression of marginalized groups in Faerûn and now has made it her goal in life to point it all out to hapless adventurers, and if they don't like it, well, that's just too bad.
What the writers did was incredibly petty and immature. Just once I'd like to engage with the gaming community without having to deal with these awful fights but it was more important for the writers to get in a snide remark. Now instead of talking about how fun the game is we're talking about this.
Beamdog, you deliberately set out to antagonize people and act surprised when you get a backlash. Petty political infighting has no place in a game that people pay for. I play your games to be immersed in the forgotten realms universe, not to be reminded of the horrible fighting that has been plaguing the gaming community for the past few years.
An experience I've been looking forward to for months as has been made less fun because of your selfishness. I hope it was worth it.
We don't give vocal minorities the ability to dictate the limits of expression. That is a very very very very bad idea.
THIS THIS THIS.
The staggering irony of it all is that is exactly what they claim they are trying to do: stop the vocal minorities having undue influence over things all the while being an extreme and vocal minority who are try.... trying to.... Oh. Oh dear. There goes a few more braincells from trying to comprehend such staggering hypocrisy.
My estimate is that Beamdog didn't think this would blow up like it did. They aren't malicious hateful people who are trying to put social agenda down your throat. They're good people. Let's all be more reasonable and respectful with them. If we all keep slinging mud, nothing will get better.
Just let things cool down and expand the character a bit. People that legitimately felt the character was forced will be happy with a better more integrated character, and those arguing it in bad faith struggle to hold onto their position. Keeps from angering the people who were happy about the character, and alleviates any issues from those that did feel disrespected by the portrayal. By far the safest option, though their is the risk that any change, even one that adds to the character, will be seen as "caving".
1. GamerGaters have never, ever, in the history of their existence as a "movement", done anything to promote better representation of minorities in games. They don't organize workshops, they don't give talks at gay gamer events, they don't support Kickstarters for games like Read Only Memories or Sunset or Undertale (because those games are, of course, "Tumblr SJW Games"). This group is not interested in minorities beyond using them to promote their own positions.
Gamergate was banned from Gaymer X before they could host a panel and they've been kicked out of every con where they could do such a thing. Even if they're not discussing gamergate related things. By people like you.
2. It is absolutely possible to make Mizhena a deeper, more compelling character if that's something Amber and Andrew want to pursue. These changes should not be made as concessions to Internet bullies, especially since they'll just find another way to complain about her anyway.
Nah.
3. I didn't think openly asking for reviews was a good idea, and said so. That said, it's done. And the counterbalance will be showing up as soon as people finish playing SoD anyway.
Nah.
4. GamerGate is not interested in representation of minorities. Their narrative here, which has popped up again and again, is that Amber Scott is a SJW who pushed her agenda onto a classic game. Not a word about Andrew Foley - you know, the other lead writer - not a word about Chris Avellone's role as consultant, not a word about Phil Daigle who was promoting SoD right alongside Amber in those Twitch streams. But somehow it's all Amber's fault. Beamdog absolutely does not need to appease anyone who holds that view.
We have no idea what Avellone or Andrew or Daigle, but Amber is the one going "ME FEMINIST. ME MAKE SURE MUCH DIVERSITY. YOU NO LIKE? DEAL WITH IT. "
They are dealing with it. You want to piss all over a 16 year old game to promote an agenda and intentionally piss people off? Congratulations, it is going to hurt your bottom line.
Hope that the storm of fake negative reviews and down-votes blows over soon, and that over time real reviews balance out the score.
Try to get more critic reviews, because if the average critic score and average audience score differ significantly, prospective buyers will take a closer look on who to trust.
Don't change the controversial parts of the game now, that would just embolden the trolls.
In future games, continue to include minority characters and even explore political themes. But avoid the temptation to needlessly antagonizing people just to score points in an ongoing Internet flamewar, i.e.:
Think twice before including a pop culture reference that may be interpreted as a mean-spirited jab against a subset of gamers.
When you add depth to a previously flat character (which is great!), don't go selling it as "replacing the sexist/problematic characters of the original game, deal with it!" in interviews (which is just a terrible PR move, especially if the characters are really still the same just with more depth, and if you'd just say that, no-one would take issue with it).
Comments
https://steamcommunity.com/app/228280/discussions/0/371918937275630653/
these are the kind of opinions that come along with the whole discussion...The thought of giving in to that makes me sick!
On topic, don't cowtow to the persecuted whiners, Beamdog. Do that and they'll just find another perceived slight and mount the ol' soapbox again.
There's always going to be extremists out there. The worst thing you can do is lump everyone else in with the extremists, and this is something that has happened constantly, and it needs to stop.
The greatness of BG lies in how ancient the story feels, yet how you can apply it to modern problems. I think Beamdog kind of can't get it. Like their EE NPC feel so much more modern than the rest, they couldn't even make portraits suiting the rest, not even talking about the dialogues.
Again, I haven't played the expansion yet, but from the trailer it seems very linear, which is not what BG is supposed to be. Is it like icewind dale or more like original BG?
However, the level of vitriol and hate from a small (I hope) minority genuinely shocks and saddens me. I am too busy (mods are volunteers, not Beamdog agents as some people seem to think) irl to read every thread on this issue, but I sincerely hope this minority are all newcomers to the forum rather than our typically wonderful community.
It is one thing to complain about aspects of a game you don't like, it is another to launch a hate campaign focused on 0.01% of a game, and execute it with such poisonous determination.
So although I don't personally support everything Beamdog did with SoD, I absolutely oppose this hateful attempt to censor them because some people don't want to face issues they find uncomfortable.
Thus I respectfully disagree with @typo_tilly and I hope Beamdog makes the moral stand to defend their freedom of expression.
This is the consequence of that.
Now Baldur's Gate is going to suffer.
Shame on both sides, and shame on Beamdog for being on a side.
Beamdog, you deliberately set out to antagonize people and act surprised when you get a backlash. Petty political infighting has no place in a game that people pay for. I play your games to be immersed in the forgotten realms universe, not to be reminded of the horrible fighting that has been plaguing the gaming community for the past few years.
An experience I've been looking forward to for months as has been made less fun because of your selfishness. I hope it was worth it.
The staggering irony of it all is that is exactly what they claim they are trying to do: stop the vocal minorities having undue influence over things all the while being an extreme and vocal minority who are try.... trying to.... Oh. Oh dear. There goes a few more braincells from trying to comprehend such staggering hypocrisy.
1. GamerGaters have never, ever, in the history of their existence as a "movement", done anything to promote better representation of minorities in games. They don't organize workshops, they don't give talks at gay gamer events, they don't support Kickstarters for games like Read Only Memories or Sunset or Undertale (because those games are, of course, "Tumblr SJW Games"). This group is not interested in minorities beyond using them to promote their own positions.
Gamergate was banned from Gaymer X before they could host a panel and they've been kicked out of every con where they could do such a thing. Even if they're not discussing gamergate related things. By people like you.
2. It is absolutely possible to make Mizhena a deeper, more compelling character if that's something Amber and Andrew want to pursue. These changes should not be made as concessions to Internet bullies, especially since they'll just find another way to complain about her anyway.
Nah.
3. I didn't think openly asking for reviews was a good idea, and said so. That said, it's done. And the counterbalance will be showing up as soon as people finish playing SoD anyway.
Nah.
4. GamerGate is not interested in representation of minorities. Their narrative here, which has popped up again and again, is that Amber Scott is a SJW who pushed her agenda onto a classic game. Not a word about Andrew Foley - you know, the other lead writer - not a word about Chris Avellone's role as consultant, not a word about Phil Daigle who was promoting SoD right alongside Amber in those Twitch streams. But somehow it's all Amber's fault. Beamdog absolutely does not need to appease anyone who holds that view.
We have no idea what Avellone or Andrew or Daigle, but Amber is the one going "ME FEMINIST. ME MAKE SURE MUCH DIVERSITY. YOU NO LIKE? DEAL WITH IT.
They are dealing with it. You want to piss all over a 16 year old game to promote an agenda and intentionally piss people off? Congratulations, it is going to hurt your bottom line.