My original question for you was why and how you feel personally insulted by someone saying that there is sexism in Baldur's Gate.
Bacause her interview sounds like. "Baldur's Gate was sexist and I will fix it, because now I'm the writer. If you don't like my progressive approach, fu*k you, Baldur's Gate fans."
Bacause her interview sounds like. "Baldur's Gate was sexist and I will fix it, because now I'm the writer. If you don't like my progressive approach, fu*k you, Baldur's Gate fans."
Ah, so this part is what personally insulted you?
"In Siege of Dragonspear, Safana gets her own little storyline, she got a way better personality upgrade. If people don’t like that, then too bad."
Amber Scott probably doesn't think original Baldur's gate was terrible, but sheis following the "progressive" approach, where writing about straight white male is considered to be almost sexist crime or at least backward.
Well, she herself writes about straight white males. So... not sure about that.
My original question for you was why and how you feel personally insulted by someone saying that there is sexism in Baldur's Gate.
I'm going to speak for him/her, which is a terrible idea, but here I go.
If you hear someone call the thing you love sexist, that implies that you are sexist for loving it. And if you aren't sexist, then it's insulting to be called such.
That's the argument I have heard, and it made sense to me. So I'm passing the reasoning along.
i know you wish the best for everyone but i disagree 100%
beamdog should: 1. swear not to alter the game content because it was an artistic decision which they stand behind (if they truly do)
2. pronounce that they've been selected as a target in a (so-called) culture war and declare that they don't, as a company have to take part in any of it - there will be no back-and-forths, no engagement, no interest, just nothing
4. not apologize about asking customers to rate the game because it's a normal thing
#1 I can get behind this.
#2 This one can't work, That minsc quote was a shot at Gamergate. Beamdog can't say they aren't participating when you can make a solid argument that they started it.
#4 It's a normal thing, but it is against Steam's TOS. Which I think is what most people are talking about.
Bacause her interview sounds like. "Baldur's Gate was sexist and I will fix it, because now I'm the writer. If you don't like my progressive approach, fu*k you, Baldur's Gate fans."
Ah, so this part is what personally insulted you?
"In Siege of Dragonspear, Safana gets her own little storyline, she got a way better personality upgrade. If people don’t like that, then too bad."
Seems kind of benign.
While I disagree that she was saying "F*** you" to Baldur's Gate fans, I can see where some are coming from in that she seems somewhat standoffish. Honestly, I think that it's just a young, big shot writer having pride in their work. The arrogance of youth and all that. Personally I could care less about some the changes her and the other writers (yes, others both oco-wrote and signed off on what she wrote :O) have made, the characters they did change were flat, and I'm not really reading what other people are reading into some of the statements characters make.
1. I really like Baldur's Gate 2. A person said Baldur's Gate was not perfect 3. I cannot reconcile these two notions 4. The person is wrong and being mean
I have no problem with people saying Baldur's Gate was not perfect. I have no problem with people saying Baldur's Gate was terrible.
I only have problem with MAIN WRITER of SoD criticizing Baldur's Gate for sexism and trying to show her "progressive" aproach.
My main worry was that it sounded like she changed the original content in order to show off her "proggressive" approach. I hear from some people who played the game that its not that terrible. Still makes you wonder what the hell was happening in her mind when she was giving that interview. Beamdog must know that SJWs are not liked in gaming circles. Or maybe they just tried to kiss ass to Kotaku so they would get positive review. We all know how "progressive" Kotaku is.
My guess is she was railroaded into the quote with a question like:
"Do you think there was any sexism in the Baldur's Gate series, and how did you address it while writing Siege of Dragonspear. Are you afraid there maybe people upset with how characters developed away from these stereotypes and how would you handle them."
Although, I have no idea what the question was asked (the above is my best guess). Go ask the author of the article for a list of all questions he asked (he should have at least a recording, you know to make sure he doesn't misquote anyone) and see if it fits and maybe you'll be able to see where she was coming from with the response given.
GGs are all about ethics in gaming journalism, and misquoting or taking a response out of context, is a huge no-no as it deliberately misleads the reader.
~~
As for OP, Tilly, love you and I know where you are coming from in asking for this. But I agree with Shawne. If anything, flesh out the character a bit more with some of the suggestions given but do not remove anything from the game.
If you hear someone call the thing you love sexist, that implies that you are sexist for loving it. And if you aren't sexist, then it's insulting to be called such.
I appreciate the straight answer. Just because there's sexism in something doesn't mean that you're sexist for loving it, though. Almost everyone here loves Baldur's Gate, including the "SJW types" that believe there were sexist elements in it but don't consider themselves (OK, ourselves) sexists.
Lots of great stuff has some sexism and/or racism in it. Shakespeare's works. Huck Finn. It's worth recognizing, but it doesn't mean it's wrong to love those things.
If you hear someone call the thing you love sexist, that implies that you are sexist for loving it. And if you aren't sexist, then it's insulting to be called such.
I appreciate the straight answer. Just because there's sexism in something doesn't mean that you're sexist for loving it, though. Almost everyone here loves Baldur's Gate, including the "SJW types" that believe there were sexist elements in it but don't consider themselves (OK, ourselves) sexists.
Lots of great stuff has some sexism and/or racism in it. Shakespeare's works. Huck Finn. It's worth recognizing, but it doesn't mean it's wrong to love those things.
I don't disagree, I was just trying to point out how someone could get insulted by her comments.
My suggestion for a "solution" to this crisis is... don't change anything and move on. Pandering to a vocal minority special interest group is not the way to make anything better. If there are people who won't play a game because of a character in it, or a Twitter post by a lead writer, or because politics [ooOOooo scary] intrudes into their gaming experience.... well wave bubye and be done with it. Those people can play the games they like and the devs/writers can create the content that they like. No one should expect that the two groups necessarily agree or even get along.
Easy-peasy, problem solved.
Now for down the road, my suggestion would be if you are going to introduce a character with a trait that sets them apart from the norm [in-world or out] then please, PLEASE develop them such that they are memorable for more than simply that they are a member of [fill in the blank] social sub-group of 2016 Earth. There is a vast number of stories about people that could be fleshed out and told with excitement, compassion, humour and/or empathy which certainly deserve to be told - just don't be lazy about it. If there is a story to be told, then tell it. The FR milieu has always been a welcoming place for stories both in and outside the mainstream - use that history of inclusivity and tolerance to introduce NPCs that matter to people and don't just [for all intents and purposes] disappear once they have blurted out "Hey, I'm [fill in the blank]."
If all Drizzt was, was a guy who popped up while killing Gnolls and said, "Hey, I'm a Drow..." no one would remember his name....
How is this person treated in the Forgotten Realms? Are they accepted or do they face problems associated with their particular trait? Are they bitter? Composed? Indifferent to their being "different"? How are they seen by other NPCs, especially party-joinable NPCs? Did they become a Priest due in any part to who they are as a person? Did they pick a particular Deity to worship because of this trait, or is it simply not an issue for them?
What does Ajantis, or Kagain, or Shar-Teel think about them and their situation? Would having this person as a party member cause any reactions from other NPCs, like Priests of other faiths, or anyone else for that matter... The possibilities are endless and what we get is a token interaction that means basically nothing. Which makes one wonder why it appears at all, if it [seemingly] doesn't serve any in-game purpose. Inclusivity which is reduced to the level of a sound-bite doesn't, IMO, serve anyone well...
Lots of great stuff has some sexism and/or racism in it. Shakespeare's works. Huck Finn. It's worth recognizing, but it doesn't mean it's wrong to love those things.
Well it's wrong if you happen to love the specific details that are described as sexist/racist. HP Lovecraft was a xenophobe, but I love his writing overall even if I don't like the bits that verge on the racist. But if you say Safana was sexist in BG1 and I love her just the way she was then it means I am sexist for that.
If you're opposed to Safana's character being developed beyond being just a sex object, then yeah, you might be kind of sexist for that, I guess. Not a big deal.
My original question for you was why and how you feel personally insulted by someone saying that there is sexism in Baldur's Gate.
Well, I'm not native English speaker, so the word "insult" maybe isn't the best one. Mybe "offend" or "upset" would be better. I hate people who find almost everything to be "sexist" or "racist" If the objective of original Baldur's Gate had been raping as many female charactrs as possible, I would understand complaints of sexism. But if somebody consider Baldur's Gate to be sexist, she has probably has some kind of mental disorder. Maybe there are few jokes at "women's expense" but almost every movie, book or game have a few jokes at somebody's expense. Are realy all jokes at somebody's expense serious social issue, which need to be fixed ? I think pop culture without occasional jokes at somebody's expense would be very poor. Jokes at somebody's expense aren't issue as long as they stay within the boundaries of good taste.
My main worry was that it sounded like she changed the original content in order to show off her "proggressive" approach. I hear from some people who played the game that its not that terrible. Still makes you wonder what the hell was happening in her mind when she was giving that interview. Beamdog must know that SJWs are not liked in gaming circles. Or maybe they just tried to kiss ass to Kotaku so they would get positive review. We all know how "progressive" Kotaku is.
Man, you have extremely recently said that you believe in art for art's sake and don't care about the intent behind art and that your problem with "SJW shoehorning" or whatever is that it supposedly always ends up terrible. Apparently it didn't end up all that terrible here, so can we worry about it less?
As someone who agrees with the things Amber Scott said in her interview, I suspect that there was no secret motive; she probably actually believes the things she said and was being honest instead of pandering to a faction of gamers that she disagrees with. Even if you are one of those gamers, isn't that candor a little bit admirable?
Why not just accept that you have political disagreements with one of the writers and that those disagreements didn't affect the final product all that much?
Well, I came here to see what people are saying. I am mostly interested to see if the things she said in the interview really had a horrible effect on the game as I expected from a SJW crusader that she appeared to be. Since then a number of people have come out and said that the changes are subtle which I applaud at. I said I bought the game, will keep it and will also give it a fair chance with an open mind.
In the end I care about BG legacy far too much for this to ruin the game for me - regardless of our political disagreement.
If you're opposed to Safana's character being developed beyond being just a sex object, then yeah, you might be kind of sexist for that, I guess. Not a big deal.
I'm not opposed to her being more developped. I'm opposed to her being called an object in the first place. I'm opposed to the mentality of sexual=sexist. I'm opposed to the double standard of calling female character sexist when the same limited development applied to all the other original characters.
I think part of the issue here is people hearing "sexist" as a vile, screamed, permanent invalidation of one's moral being or something. But people who spend all their time paying attention to this stuff see it *everywhere*. Yes, they (OK, we) sort of think that "almost everything" is sexist or racist. Like in the sense that it contributes in some way to gender or racial inequality. That doesn't always mean it's the worst thing in the universe.
These folks don't necessarily get furious about low-level examples. So they may be like, "Yeah, that kind of objectifies women and pushes a stereotype that they're over-emotional. [eye roll] Let's try to do better next time." It's not an adjective that needs to keep you up at night.
If you're opposed to Safana's character being developed beyond being just a sex object, then yeah, you might be kind of sexist for that, I guess. Not a big deal.
I'm not opposed to her being more developped. I'm opposed to her being called an object in the first place. I'm opposed to the mentality of sexual=sexist. I'm opposed to the double standard of calling female character sexist when the same limited development applied to all the other original characters.
I think it has something to do with the female characters falling into stereotypes that people see as harmful. But yeah, fair enough.
But people who spend all their time paying attention to this stuff see it *everywhere*.
That's the problem; people who see it everywhere. It's called confirmation bias. When all you have in your toolbox is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.
And I'm not really upset by her opinion that a certain detail is sexist. It's the fact that she implied it needs to be fixed no matter what the fans of the old franchise think. If she had said this character will be better developped to make it less stereotypical and we hope the fans will enjoy it, that would have been much better
I think part of the issue here is people hearing "sexist" as a vile, screamed, permanent invalidation of one's moral being or something. But people who spend all their time paying attention to this stuff see it *everywhere*. Yes, they (OK, we) sort of think that "almost everything" is sexist or racist. Like in the sense that it contributes in some way to gender or racial inequality. That doesn't always mean it's the worst thing in the universe.
These folks don't necessarily get furious about low-level examples. So they may be like, "Yeah, that kind of objectifies women and pushes a stereotype that they're over-emotional. [eye roll] Let's try to do better next time." It's not an adjective that needs to keep you up at night.
Well, where I am coming from, calling someone sexist or racist is the worst possible insult you can give to a person. I seriously dont know many insults that hurt so much in my Swedish society. Maybe if they call you a pedophile or something, but now there are SJW crusaders who are even defending pedophiles, so thats that.
Perhaps you people dont see sexism as a big issue, but some people are very sensitive to these types of accusations - especially when you hear it so often - since as you say... these days "everything is sexist".
I don't understand about the Minsc line. GamerGate is associated with harassment and misogyny. So yeah, poke fun. Make a joke. Don't censor yourself based on blowback. That would not be noble. Sure, there are practical reasons for such censorship...
I'm trying to understand why this quote is bad..
A good reason for taking it out, is that its poor, lazy writing.
Using a joke or reference about the 'outrage de jour' that everyone is talking about, and putting it in a game or novel or movie doesn't require any more skill as a writer, than turning on the radio or Facebook, and steal a line from there.
It also guarantees a quick payoff right now. Everyone knows what you're talking about, chuckle chuckle!
But the problem is 3 or 5 or 10 years down the road, when everyone's forgotten the reference and why it was funny. It needlessly ages the game/movie/book and makes it harder for people to suspend their disbelief.
(Especially in a fantasy setting for crying out loud!)
Look at games or movies from 15 years ago that use the same kind of current event-nudge-nudge humor (the original BG had some of this too) and look how poorly it comes across now.
This is how that joke will feel like in 5 or 10 years.
Also note how some of the classic comedies that are still seen and gets guffaws today DON'T use current events for cheap laughs: Monty Python for example.
I see sexism as an enormous issue, I just think it has diffuse sources. We can't just burn everything that has any hint of sexism and start from scratch, because there wouldn't be much left. So we try to build on the mostly-good things we have while recognizing the problems that are there. I actually think that taking an NPC who maybe had a stereotypical or reductive personality and developing her into a more complete character is a good example of the right way to do things.
I see sexism as an enormous issue, I just think it has diffuse sources. We can't just burn everything that has any hint of sexism and start from scratch, because there wouldn't be much left. So we try to build on the mostly-good things we have while recognizing the problems that are there. I actually think that taking an NPC who maybe had a stereotypical or reductive personality and developing her into a more complete character is a good example of the right way to do things.
I have not bothered to review the game on any sight- nor am I so uptight and petty as to ask for 20 dollars back or downrate the game so it is not sold. I just wanted to post here a bit and say - please avoid real world issues or vocab someone would use - I would be mad if you had some Clowny Flaming fist say,
"I am Alexjones The Freedom warrior I joined the Flaming fist to fight tyranny and evil mind flayer controllers who poison the water and brainwash children into a common core."
I would come on here and say that was stupid and wrecked my game immersion and I do not want politics in my escapist fantasy where super hot ebon skin elf ladies love me - Beyonce is married youknow.
I did google "negative reviews siege of dragonspear" and got this article:
I have no idea if the quotes attributed to the Beamdog emloyee are true or not - if this was actually said though:
“I consciously add as much diversity as I can to my writing and I don’t care if people think that’s “forced” or fake. I find choosing to write from a straight default just as artificial. I’m happy to be an SJW and I hope to write many Social Justice Games in the future” by Amber Scott NOTE I have no idea if she did or did not say this- did she?
-but if she did say that I have to say and reapeat the articles thrust - if you live by the sword you die by the sword -
put in polarizing MODERN DAY NOT DnD Gmae stuff and do not be surprised, shocked, or claim innocence when a bunch of brat kids with way too much free time try to crash your sales by downgrading it -
I do have a steam account as I have bought Steam game but I would be a petty brat if I am bothered enough to downgrade or smacktalk the game for just a few off comments - it really is of no huge impact. But, it absolutely does glaringly stick out like a fresh cow pile in the middle of a 5 star UAE hotel lobby. It would not make me get a different hotel or think my room was bad - but it would be an alien aspect int the setting.
I have blown 600 bucks in one night in Paris and more than that in San Diego on very questionable regrettable dance places - I am not going to ask for a refund or claim I am more moral than Beamdog people. I like the game overall too - and I hope they make more DnD stuff. But I also hope in the future games they keep it unreal and fully DnD not fully P. an C.
There is no solution that needs to be offered or extended. The game is released and this is the product. This isn't a crowd-funded collaborative effort. People who aren't thin-skinned reactionaries will enjoy the game for what it is on it's merits, or they won't. Everyone else can go kick rocks....fixing the bugs and multiplayer are the only things Beamdog owes anyone....
I dont think any company should cater to anyone when it concerns video games.
I always see whining and complaining about stuff that really should not matter.... video games are meant for fun and entertainment and here you have most modern feminists and such complaining about nothing.
There is no solution that needs to be offered or extended. The game is released and this is the product. This isn't a crowd-funded collaborative effort. People who aren't thin-skinned reactionaries will enjoy the game for what it is on it's merits, or they won't. Everyone else can go kick rocks....fixing the bugs and multiplayer are the only things Beamdog owes anyone....
A thousand times this.
Look at you, you are so self-sufficient, not even able to understand why people might have different opinions than yours.
Comments
"In Siege of Dragonspear, Safana gets her own little storyline, she got a way better personality upgrade. If people don’t like that, then too bad."
Seems kind of benign.
If you hear someone call the thing you love sexist, that implies that you are sexist for loving it. And if you aren't sexist, then it's insulting to be called such.
That's the argument I have heard, and it made sense to me. So I'm passing the reasoning along.
#2 This one can't work, That minsc quote was a shot at Gamergate. Beamdog can't say they aren't participating when you can make a solid argument that they started it.
#4 It's a normal thing, but it is against Steam's TOS. Which I think is what most people are talking about.
re:2 - it's too vague and open to interpretation. it's not open criticism of any sort.
re:4 - didn't know. that's a shame.
"Do you think there was any sexism in the Baldur's Gate series, and how did you address it while writing Siege of Dragonspear. Are you afraid there maybe people upset with how characters developed away from these stereotypes and how would you handle them."
Although, I have no idea what the question was asked (the above is my best guess). Go ask the author of the article for a list of all questions he asked (he should have at least a recording, you know to make sure he doesn't misquote anyone) and see if it fits and maybe you'll be able to see where she was coming from with the response given.
GGs are all about ethics in gaming journalism, and misquoting or taking a response out of context, is a huge no-no as it deliberately misleads the reader.
~~
As for OP, Tilly, love you and I know where you are coming from in asking for this. But I agree with Shawne. If anything, flesh out the character a bit more with some of the suggestions given but do not remove anything from the game.
Lots of great stuff has some sexism and/or racism in it. Shakespeare's works. Huck Finn. It's worth recognizing, but it doesn't mean it's wrong to love those things.
Easy-peasy, problem solved.
Now for down the road, my suggestion would be if you are going to introduce a character with a trait that sets them apart from the norm [in-world or out] then please, PLEASE develop them such that they are memorable for more than simply that they are a member of [fill in the blank] social sub-group of 2016 Earth. There is a vast number of stories about people that could be fleshed out and told with excitement, compassion, humour and/or empathy which certainly deserve to be told - just don't be lazy about it. If there is a story to be told, then tell it. The FR milieu has always been a welcoming place for stories both in and outside the mainstream - use that history of inclusivity and tolerance to introduce NPCs that matter to people and don't just [for all intents and purposes] disappear once they have blurted out "Hey, I'm [fill in the blank]."
If all Drizzt was, was a guy who popped up while killing Gnolls and said, "Hey, I'm a Drow..." no one would remember his name....
How is this person treated in the Forgotten Realms? Are they accepted or do they face problems associated with their particular trait? Are they bitter? Composed? Indifferent to their being "different"? How are they seen by other NPCs, especially party-joinable NPCs? Did they become a Priest due in any part to who they are as a person? Did they pick a particular Deity to worship because of this trait, or is it simply not an issue for them?
What does Ajantis, or Kagain, or Shar-Teel think about them and their situation? Would having this person as a party member cause any reactions from other NPCs, like Priests of other faiths, or anyone else for that matter... The possibilities are endless and what we get is a token interaction that means basically nothing. Which makes one wonder why it appears at all, if it [seemingly] doesn't serve any in-game purpose. Inclusivity which is reduced to the level of a sound-bite doesn't, IMO, serve anyone well...
Just my rant on the topic >grins<
I hate people who find almost everything to be "sexist" or "racist"
If the objective of original Baldur's Gate had been raping as many female charactrs as possible, I would understand complaints of sexism.
But if somebody consider Baldur's Gate to be sexist, she has probably has some kind of mental disorder.
Maybe there are few jokes at "women's expense" but almost every movie, book or game have a few jokes at somebody's expense.
Are realy all jokes at somebody's expense serious social issue, which need to be fixed ? I think pop culture without occasional jokes at somebody's expense would be very poor. Jokes at somebody's expense aren't issue as long as they stay within the boundaries of good taste.
In the end I care about BG legacy far too much for this to ruin the game for me - regardless of our political disagreement.
These folks don't necessarily get furious about low-level examples. So they may be like, "Yeah, that kind of objectifies women and pushes a stereotype that they're over-emotional. [eye roll] Let's try to do better next time." It's not an adjective that needs to keep you up at night.
And I'm not really upset by her opinion that a certain detail is sexist. It's the fact that she implied it needs to be fixed no matter what the fans of the old franchise think. If she had said this character will be better developped to make it less stereotypical and we hope the fans will enjoy it, that would have been much better
Perhaps you people dont see sexism as a big issue, but some people are very sensitive to these types of accusations - especially when you hear it so often - since as you say... these days "everything is sexist".
Using a joke or reference about the 'outrage de jour' that everyone is talking about, and putting it in a game or novel or movie doesn't require any more skill as a writer, than turning on the radio or Facebook, and steal a line from there.
It also guarantees a quick payoff right now. Everyone knows what you're talking about, chuckle chuckle!
But the problem is 3 or 5 or 10 years down the road, when everyone's forgotten the reference and why it was funny. It needlessly ages the game/movie/book and makes it harder for people to suspend their disbelief.
(Especially in a fantasy setting for crying out loud!)
Look at games or movies from 15 years ago that use the same kind of current event-nudge-nudge humor (the original BG had some of this too) and look how poorly it comes across now.
This is how that joke will feel like in 5 or 10 years.
Also note how some of the classic comedies that are still seen and gets guffaws today DON'T use current events for cheap laughs: Monty Python for example.
It brought tears to my eyes.
"I am Alexjones The Freedom warrior I joined the Flaming fist to fight tyranny and evil mind flayer controllers who poison the water and brainwash children into a common core."
I would come on here and say that was stupid and wrecked my game immersion and I do not want politics in my escapist fantasy where super hot ebon skin elf ladies love me - Beyonce is married youknow.
I did google "negative reviews siege of dragonspear" and got this article:
http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/2016/04/baldurs-gate-siege-of-dragonspear-sjw-themes-sees-gamers-asking-for-refunds/
I have no idea if the quotes attributed to the Beamdog emloyee are true or not - if this was actually said though:
“I consciously add as much diversity as I can to my writing and I don’t care if people think that’s “forced” or fake. I find choosing to write from a straight default just as artificial. I’m happy to be an SJW and I hope to write many Social Justice Games in the future” by Amber Scott NOTE I have no idea if she did or did not say this- did she?
-but if she did say that I have to say and reapeat the articles thrust - if you live by the sword you die by the sword -
put in polarizing MODERN DAY NOT DnD Gmae stuff and do not be surprised, shocked, or claim innocence when a bunch of brat kids with way too much free time try to crash your sales by downgrading it -
I do have a steam account as I have bought Steam game but I would be a petty brat if I am bothered enough to downgrade or smacktalk the game for just a few off comments - it really is of no huge impact. But, it absolutely does glaringly stick out like a fresh cow pile in the middle of a 5 star UAE hotel lobby. It would not make me get a different hotel or think my room was bad - but it would be an alien aspect int the setting.
I have blown 600 bucks in one night in Paris and more than that in San Diego on very questionable regrettable dance places - I am not going to ask for a refund or claim I am more moral than Beamdog people. I like the game overall too - and I hope they make more DnD stuff. But I also hope in the future games they keep it unreal and fully DnD not fully P. an C.
I always see whining and complaining about stuff that really should not matter.... video games are meant for fun and entertainment and here you have most modern feminists and such complaining about nothing.
fight something that has real problems.