You know, when the 2.0 patch beta was released for the open beta, many people complained about the new UI. Not many people believed the UI would be changed in the release version, and even in SoD. But it happened. And not simply happened but they also majorly used a dialogue with us, players, about ways to change and improve the UI.
This gives me a strong believe Beamdog will handle a new problem, will fix what is broken and the life will go on.
1. Replace Minsc's 'ethics in heroic adventuring' line with something else that fits the mood (e.g., 'butt kicking for goodness'). Many GamerGaters genuinely want better representation of minorities in games.
~Thalantyr
I've not seen the line in game yet and I'm completely ignorant of the GG stuff. What's the issue with this line?
I don't think Minsc's line should be taken away and I don't think Mizhena should be changed.
What I want is just that lessons are learned about it. I don't think Beamdog owes anything to anyone about the decisions they've made. I especially don't think they should be pressured to censor their choices from the community. I do feel that they owe it to themselves to try to understand why people are reacting the way they are, to separate what parts the haters are overreacting to and what parts of their complaints are genuine and should be considered.
Thank you @typo_tilly for your well thought out post(s). You've been a breath of fresh air in these arguments.
I honestly hope that sanity will be restored eventually. What a mess
I really hope that we as a community will be able to get back to a civil and friendly environment again, once the dust settles. I have enjoyed these forums for years and the practically unique level of friendliness that basically everyone brings to the table.
It would be terrible if we were to lose that permanently..
I really really really doubt Minsc's line will get changed, tilly. Whoever came up with it think it's hilarious, appropriate, and they're in the right for adding it. And as much as I hate agreeing with shawne, he's right in that WotC and Oster have signed off on it and thus evidently thinks it's a non-issue.
I've not seen the line in game yet and I'm completely ignorant of the GG stuff. What's the issue with this line?
It's one of Minsc's new "Rare Selection" sounds. Basically it's mocking the Gamergate movement. What's the issue with antagonizing a group of people? Where to start...
Though the real issue, in my point of view, is that it's incredibly badly voice acted. It sounds like it's put together using text-to-speech software. Drawn out and awkward.
As you call it in german: Der Kluegere gibt nach. An apology for the bad PR and quality control would be very helpful. An open Beta would have helped a lot. Thread OP is right in my opinion. Siege of Dragonspear is a good game, but has many things that need to be polished. Anyway Beamdog did a great job with the EE's. Once the lot bugs are gone and the immersion is restored, it will be also as great.
Sorry, Tilly, you know I think highly of you but hell no on all of this.
1. GamerGaters have never, ever, in the history of their existence as a "movement", done anything to promote better representation of minorities in games. They don't organize workshops, they don't give talks at gay gamer events, they don't support Kickstarters for games like Read Only Memories or Sunset or Undertale (because those games are, of course, "Tumblr SJW Games"). This group is not interested in minorities beyond using them to promote their own positions.
2. It is absolutely possible to make Mizhena a deeper, more compelling character if that's something Amber and Andrew want to pursue. These changes should not be made as concessions to Internet bullies, especially since they'll just find another way to complain about her anyway.
3. I didn't think openly asking for reviews was a good idea, and said so. That said, it's done. And the counterbalance will be showing up as soon as people finish playing SoD anyway.
4. GamerGate is not interested in representation of minorities. Their narrative here, which has popped up again and again, is that Amber Scott is a SJW who pushed her agenda onto a classic game. Not a word about Andrew Foley - you know, the other lead writer - not a word about Chris Avellone's role as consultant, not a word about Phil Daigle who was promoting SoD right alongside Amber in those Twitch streams. But somehow it's all Amber's fault. Beamdog absolutely does not need to appease anyone who holds that view.
I think @typo_tilly is perhaps the nicest person on this forum and I'm used to agreeing with her. This time is different. Typo Tilly you are -- this one time -- incorrect.
The people who are upset are upset for illegitimate reasons -- the modern misogynist and transphobe are little different from the so-called conservatives who disliked 'interracial marriage' back in the day. Twenty years from now -- when everyone will see these comments for what they are -- will want to say that they were aligned against the hate. Giving the haters a victory will only embolden them and lead to more requests -- hate is a beast whose hunger is never satiated.
Which of wouldn't like to say that we marched with MLK back in the day? Well that day is now. Do we stand firm or do we give in to the modern day analogues to Bull Connor?
The rage will spiral out even more if you don't act. As a longstanding fan and a trans person, please consider tweaking your current content.
1. Replace Minsc's 'ethics in heroic adventuring' line with something else that fits the mood (e.g., 'butt kicking for goodness'). Many GamerGaters genuinely want better representation of minorities in games.
2. Temporarily remove Mizhena's 2 lines from the game: the 1 about her backstory and the 1 about how she made her name. Put good thought and consultation into how to re-implement them. Perhaps only have those as options after CHARNAME has gained her trust and friendship. Maybe do something with a party that imports with the gender change belt.
3. Make an announcement (and twitter posts) to say - You're sorry about asking people to post reviews to counter 1 star reviews. It was a mistake and you were frustrated at what you perceived as slights against the inclusion of a transgender cleric and a GamerGate poke. - Minsc's line poking fun at GamerGate has been removed and it was in bad taste. - You're talking to the fanbase and trans community about how to re-introduce Mizhena's backstory.
4. Set an interview with a GamerGate-supporting news site. Come part-way in how best to represent minorities in games.
This will be difficult to do, requiring high willpower and humility. But it can only get worse if you don't admit some fault and make some changes.
I wish you "intelligence" on your journeys. I would wish you "luck," but it runs out much quicker than you would think. Good day. ~Thalantyr
I have to respectfully disagree. If there was nothing inherently offensive (poorly implemented is another story) about the content, any caving in will only encourage more of this social censorship moving forward. As a content creator, Beamdog has a right to put whatever they want into their games. They should not have to be cowed by an overblown attempt to destroy their game by people who are unwilling to accept that not everything in the world can be to their liking.
I understand that your complaint about Mizhena is about her not being properly represented in your view. That's a valuable criticism. The attacks on this game are almost universally about her inclusion altogether.
I really really really doubt Minsc's line will get changed, tilly. Whoever came up with it think it's hilarious, appropriate, and they're in the right for adding it. And as much as I hate agreeing with shawne, he's right in that WotC and Oster have signed off on it and thus evidently thinks it's a non-issue.
I've not seen the line in game yet and I'm completely ignorant of the GG stuff. What's the issue with this line?
It's one of Minsc's new "Rare Selection" sounds. Basically it's mocking the Gamergate movement. What's the issue with antagonizing a group of people? Where to start...
Though the real issue, in my point of view, is that it's incredibly badly voice acted. It sounds like it's put together using text-to-speech software. Drawn out and awkward.
Sorry, Tilly, you know I think highly of you but hell no on all of this.
1. GamerGaters have never, ever, in the history of their existence as a "movement", done anything to promote better representation of minorities in games. They don't organize workshops, they don't give talks at gay gamer events, they don't support Kickstarters for games like Read Only Memories or Sunset or Undertale (because those games are, of course, "Tumblr SJW Games"). This group is not interested in minorities beyond using them to promote their own positions.
2. It is absolutely possible to make Mizhena a deeper, more compelling character if that's something Amber and Andrew want to pursue. These changes should not be made as concessions to Internet bullies, especially since they'll just find another way to complain about her anyway.
3. I didn't think openly asking for reviews was a good idea, and said so. That said, it's done. And the counterbalance will be showing up as soon as people finish playing SoD anyway.
4. GamerGate is not interested in representation of minorities. Their narrative here, which has popped up again and again, is that Amber Scott is a SJW who pushed her agenda onto a classic game. Not a word about Andrew Foley - you know, the other lead writer - not a word about Chris Avellone's role as consultant, not a word about Phil Daigle who was promoting SoD right alongside Amber in those Twitch streams. But somehow it's all Amber's fault. Beamdog absolutely does not need to appease anyone who holds that view.
I agree with Shawne absolutely on this. If there is one element of this whole 'discussion' (and I use the word loosely) that is most disturbing, it is the vitriol and venom directed at one writer, whilst at the same time completely ignoring everyone else who has worked on the game and who shares responsibility for it.
I don't understand about the Minsc line. GamerGate is associated with harassment and misogyny. So yeah, poke fun. Make a joke. Don't censor yourself based on blowback. That would not be noble. Sure, there are practical reasons for such censorship...
I'm trying to understand why this quote is bad. All I can get is that it will make some people angry. Some people that tend to make others lives hard by, such as, spamming bad reviews. Is that what is wrong with this quote? If thats the case, I gotta love Beamdog more for putting that little gem in there.
Right. I've said before that if people truly feel that it's the method of representation of the minority that matters, then if they continue to protest the trans person's inclusion, we'll know those people weren't truthful in their original statements. I have no doubt that many people who call themselves GamerGaters or Social Justice Warriors are people who want better representation in games. There are surely also people who count themselves among those groups who don't want better representation in games, yet claim they do. Wouldn't this event cause a possible split from those hateful people hiding behind reasonable people?
It's also true that some keep mentioning Amber Scott rather than Andrew Foley, Phil Daigle, Dave Gross, or Chris Avellone. I think it's her interview that's caused the increase attention moreso than her gender.
To me, the response to the mild tokenism of a trans person has been a wild overreaction. But I'm willing to concede -- to offer trust -- that trans allies who are strongly denouncing the character's representation may be truthful. If Beamdog were to change things, would many of these former denouncers change their opinions? This isn't all about Beamdog. It's about the reaction of people who consider themselves anti-SJWs and GGs. If they're truly good, they'll show it when offered a hand.
It won't transform the issue because to the gamergate crowd, no change will ever be "well-written" enough. Beamdog could alter the character 10 times to try and depict her more faithfully and this will continue with only more momentum because these people now have the power to influence the game's content.
I don't understand about the Minsc line. GamerGate is associated with harassment and misogyny. So yeah, poke fun. Make a joke. Don't censor yourself based on blowback. That would not be noble. Sure, there are practical reasons for such censorship...
I'm trying to understand why this quote is bad. All I can get is that it will make some people angry. Some people that tend to make others lives hard by, such as, spamming bad reviews. Is that what is wrong with this quote? If thats the case, I gotta love Beamdog more for putting that little gem in there.
Minsc is a character that is beloved by pretty much everyone. On this very forum you've got people who oppose the whole GG controversy upset that Beamdog have turned Minsc into the Dudebro GG strawman, and those who support GG upset that one of their favourite characters is outright mocking what they believe to be legitimate issues which were brought up at the start of GG and then purposely buried in the harassment narrative.
I'm sure Beamdog meant well with this line, but it has backfired on them from both sides.
Feel free to watch this video by Liana Kerzner, who explains the reaction in further detail.
I don't understand about the Minsc line. GamerGate is associated with harassment and misogyny. So yeah, poke fun. Make a joke. Don't censor yourself based on blowback. That would not be noble. Sure, there are practical reasons for such censorship...
I'm trying to understand why this quote is bad. All I can get is that it will make some people angry. Some people that tend to make others lives hard by, such as, spamming bad reviews. Is that what is wrong with this quote? If thats the case, I gotta love Beamdog more for putting that little gem in there.
Minsc is a character that is beloved by pretty much everyone. On this very forum you've got people who oppose the whole GG controversy upset that Beamdog have turned Minsc into the Dudebro GG strawman, and those who support GG upset that one of their favourite characters is outright mocking what they believe to be legitimate issues which were brought up at the start of GG and then purposely buried in the harassment narrative.
I'm sure Beamdog meant well with this line, but it has backfired on them from both sides.
Feel free to watch this video by Liana Kerzner, who explains the reaction in further detail.
It's an easter egg. It's supposed to be absurd, just like when a certain other character complains about you clicking on him. As other posters have pointed out, Minsc could have said "Let's make the realms great again!" and it would have been FINE. He could have made a number of modern references poking fun at any number of groups, but the issue here is that the gamergate outrage machine cannot tolerate any content that doesn't cater to their fragile worldview. For a group that claims SJWs are constantly whining, these are the most delicate, easily offended people I've ever seen in my life.
I don't understand about the Minsc line. GamerGate is associated with harassment and misogyny. So yeah, poke fun. Make a joke. Don't censor yourself based on blowback. That would not be noble. Sure, there are practical reasons for such censorship...
I'm trying to understand why this quote is bad. All I can get is that it will make some people angry. Some people that tend to make others lives hard by, such as, spamming bad reviews. Is that what is wrong with this quote? If thats the case, I gotta love Beamdog more for putting that little gem in there.
Regardless of who it is, antagonizing a group of people you disagree with is stupid and immature. And exactly what does Overhaul stand to gain from it? A few brownie points? Those points have a lot less value than all the destructive reviews thrown about by the offended, people who relate to or agree with them and others who will be disgusted by the principle of the thing.
And who is chosen as the spokesperson? One of the most established and loved characters of the game. I see prem0nition apparently posted about that as I'm writing this in greater detail. But yeah, it's pretty crude using what is many people's favourite character against them. One of the new characters could easily have been chosen for the task instead and maybe it would have sounded less out of place.
Thank you for the well-thought out post, Tilly. It's good to see cool heads amidst all this drama.
On a related note, can we please get rid of Purudaya and Shawne? They have been incredibly annoying about this whole issue, and I frankly never want to read another one of their hateful posts again.
I think Mizhena should be fully replaced by a new character. I think it should be a male priest of cyric called Insecuritus who once saw a trans person in his village and decided to burn it to the ground because seeing that one trans person convinced him that there was a vast conspiracy taking place where a nefarious group were trying to brainwash the masses with their political agenda.
Maybe there should also be a priestess of umberlee with a persecution complex who complains endlessly that the world is so tough on her. The two could bicker back and forth endlessly until Noober comes along and murders both of them for being so idiotic and annoying and making everyone else miserable.
Thank you for the well-thought out post, Tilly. It's good to see cool heads amidst all this drama.
On a related note, can we please get rid of Purudaya and Shawne? They have been incredibly annoying about this whole issue, and I frankly never want to read another one of their hateful posts again.
There's a little red X in the top right corner of the screen. Feel free to click on it anytime and vaya con dios.
Comments
I honestly hope that sanity will be restored eventually. What a mess
This gives me a strong believe Beamdog will handle a new problem, will fix what is broken and the life will go on.
What I want is just that lessons are learned about it. I don't think Beamdog owes anything to anyone about the decisions they've made. I especially don't think they should be pressured to censor their choices from the community. I do feel that they owe it to themselves to try to understand why people are reacting the way they are, to separate what parts the haters are overreacting to and what parts of their complaints are genuine and should be considered.
It would be terrible if we were to lose that permanently..
Though the real issue, in my point of view, is that it's incredibly badly voice acted. It sounds like it's put together using text-to-speech software. Drawn out and awkward.
1. GamerGaters have never, ever, in the history of their existence as a "movement", done anything to promote better representation of minorities in games. They don't organize workshops, they don't give talks at gay gamer events, they don't support Kickstarters for games like Read Only Memories or Sunset or Undertale (because those games are, of course, "Tumblr SJW Games"). This group is not interested in minorities beyond using them to promote their own positions.
2. It is absolutely possible to make Mizhena a deeper, more compelling character if that's something Amber and Andrew want to pursue. These changes should not be made as concessions to Internet bullies, especially since they'll just find another way to complain about her anyway.
3. I didn't think openly asking for reviews was a good idea, and said so. That said, it's done. And the counterbalance will be showing up as soon as people finish playing SoD anyway.
4. GamerGate is not interested in representation of minorities. Their narrative here, which has popped up again and again, is that Amber Scott is a SJW who pushed her agenda onto a classic game. Not a word about Andrew Foley - you know, the other lead writer - not a word about Chris Avellone's role as consultant, not a word about Phil Daigle who was promoting SoD right alongside Amber in those Twitch streams. But somehow it's all Amber's fault. Beamdog absolutely does not need to appease anyone who holds that view.
The people who are upset are upset for illegitimate reasons -- the modern misogynist and transphobe are little different from the so-called conservatives who disliked 'interracial marriage' back in the day. Twenty years from now -- when everyone will see these comments for what they are -- will want to say that they were aligned against the hate. Giving the haters a victory will only embolden them and lead to more requests -- hate is a beast whose hunger is never satiated.
Which of wouldn't like to say that we marched with MLK back in the day? Well that day is now. Do we stand firm or do we give in to the modern day analogues to Bull Connor?
I understand that your complaint about Mizhena is about her not being properly represented in your view. That's a valuable criticism. The attacks on this game are almost universally about her inclusion altogether.
I don't understand about the Minsc line. GamerGate is associated with harassment and misogyny. So yeah, poke fun. Make a joke. Don't censor yourself based on blowback. That would not be noble. Sure, there are practical reasons for such censorship...
I'm trying to understand why this quote is bad. All I can get is that it will make some people angry. Some people that tend to make others lives hard by, such as, spamming bad reviews. Is that what is wrong with this quote? If thats the case, I gotta love Beamdog more for putting that little gem in there.
I'm sure Beamdog meant well with this line, but it has backfired on them from both sides.
Feel free to watch this video by Liana Kerzner, who explains the reaction in further detail.
It's a joke. Chuckle and move on.
And who is chosen as the spokesperson? One of the most established and loved characters of the game. I see prem0nition apparently posted about that as I'm writing this in greater detail. But yeah, it's pretty crude using what is many people's favourite character against them. One of the new characters could easily have been chosen for the task instead and maybe it would have sounded less out of place.
That said, don't change anything.
On a related note, can we please get rid of Purudaya and Shawne? They have been incredibly annoying about this whole issue, and I frankly never want to read another one of their hateful posts again.
Maybe there should also be a priestess of umberlee with a persecution complex who complains endlessly that the world is so tough on her. The two could bicker back and forth endlessly until Noober comes along and murders both of them for being so idiotic and annoying and making everyone else miserable.
It looks like that feature has been removed from the review section of SoD.