@BelleSorciere You missed large portions of my point - I clearly focused on Steam and the authentic reviews there. Ignore GOG and Metacritic, focus on Steam where we at least know the reviewers own the game. 1/3 of them dislike it. That's a very large percentage that should not be ignored, much less written off as entirely transphobic, as if that could be only complaint about a game that launched with plenty of bugs.
(Keep in mind I bought it, love it - minus some writing, and continue to support Beamdog.)
1/3 of them dislike it but a large percentage of those people dislike it for ridiculous reasons (SJW content, in other words). Those negative reviews would be much lower in number if people hadn't started the internet hate machine over the presence of a transgender character in the game, and many of those negative reviews explicitly mention either "SJW" content or the trans character directly. Or they try to dogwhistle it by writing about "bad writing."
A significant number are unhappy with the bugs and that's totally legit.
I should clearly state my point, which is that much of the outrage about SoD has been manufactured.
Hello friends. Consider this: Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
So whether it is the improvement of videogames or the discussion of then, let us try to form the habit of excellence.
Will you actually allow the evil aligned player to be able to mock her or something along those lines, and, you know, let us play our role in the roleplaying game? Because I highly doubt it. But let's hope I'm mistaken.
That would be in incredibly poor taste.
I understand that there are certain types of evil characters who I guess would do something like that (Stupid Evil alignment). However, that is just very specific and touchy grounds to attack a character on, and some players may have had similar, horrible experiences with that exact sort of thing. I don't know of a single other NPC in the entire game that can be verbally crushed in such a cruel, particularized manner. You're not given half as much of an opportunity to vehemently insult any of the other supporting NPCs at the camp.
If you must have an insulting line, then why not make it generalized like "thanks for that dull story" or "too much information". No need to be excessively hurtful in ways that are inconsistent with the rest of the game.
Asking for things like viciously insulting trans characters for being trans is something that I bet even the majority of gamergaters would view as being on the fringe.
Will you actually allow the evil aligned player to be able to mock her or something along those lines, and, you know, let us play our role in the roleplaying game? Because I highly doubt it. But let's hope I'm mistaken.
Look mate, it's simple. Click on the weapon icon in your gui, then click on her. She'll gib right quick, just be prepared for the consequences of your evil actions right?
@BelleSorciere You missed large portions of my point - I clearly focused on Steam and the authentic reviews there. Ignore GOG and Metacritic, focus on Steam where we at least know the reviewers own the game. 1/3 of them dislike it. That's a very large percentage that should not be ignored, much less written off as entirely transphobic, as if that could be only complaint about a game that launched with plenty of bugs.
(Keep in mind I bought it, love it - minus some writing, and continue to support Beamdog.)
1/3 of them dislike it but a large percentage of those people dislike it for ridiculous reasons (SJW content, in other words). Those negative reviews would be much lower in number if people hadn't started the internet hate machine over the presence of a transgender character in the game, and many of those negative reviews explicitly mention either "SJW" content or the trans character directly. Or they try to dogwhistle it by writing about "bad writing."
A significant number are unhappy with the bugs and that's totally legit.
I should clearly state my point, which is that much of the outrage about SoD has been manufactured.
I strongly disagree that many authentic Steam reviews from people who are confirmed buyers of the game are "manufactured" and you have no proof of this. Dogwhistle it to "bad writing"? It IS bad writing, that is as legitimate a complaint as bugs. The game has bugs and bad writing and my proof for that is that Beamdog themselves is addressing the.......writing. They removed Minsc's quote and are expanding on Mizhena's depth. Well I didn't have a problem with the existence of a trans character, as you would imply since I didn't like the writing, but I'm a lot happier that they're working on the writing, being such a frequent complaint as it is. Until you go through EVERY SINGLE negative Steam review and find the ratio of blatantly transphobic vs. legitimate complaints, you're ignoring a third of gamers who didn't like SoD and that's silly. Beamdog knows better and that's why they addressed the writing.
@BelleSorciere You missed large portions of my point - I clearly focused on Steam and the authentic reviews there. Ignore GOG and Metacritic, focus on Steam where we at least know the reviewers own the game. 1/3 of them dislike it. That's a very large percentage that should not be ignored, much less written off as entirely transphobic, as if that could be only complaint about a game that launched with plenty of bugs.
(Keep in mind I bought it, love it - minus some writing, and continue to support Beamdog.)
1/3 of them dislike it but a large percentage of those people dislike it for ridiculous reasons (SJW content, in other words). Those negative reviews would be much lower in number if people hadn't started the internet hate machine over the presence of a transgender character in the game, and many of those negative reviews explicitly mention either "SJW" content or the trans character directly. Or they try to dogwhistle it by writing about "bad writing."
A significant number are unhappy with the bugs and that's totally legit.
I should clearly state my point, which is that much of the outrage about SoD has been manufactured.
I strongly disagree that many authentic Steam reviews from people who are confirmed buyers of the game are "manufactured" and you have no proof of this. Dogwhistle it to "bad writing"? It IS bad writing, that is as legitimate a complaint as bugs. The game has bugs and bad writing and my proof for that is that Beamdog themselves is addressing the.......writing. They removed Minsc's quote and are expanding on Mizhena's depth. Well I didn't have a problem with the existence of a trans character, as you would imply since I didn't like the writing, but I'm a lot happier that they're working on the writing, being such a frequent complaint as it is. Until you go through EVERY SINGLE negative Steam review and find the ratio of blatantly transphobic vs. legitimate complaints, you're ignoring a third of gamers who didn't like SoD and that's silly. Beamdog knows better and that's why they addressed the writing.
I did go through many of the negative complaints, and in another thread someone else has posted links to articles written by people who have gone through the negative complaints.
This is what is true: For the first three days or so, the reviews were "mostly positive." After the video of that guy talking to Mizhena and then killing her came out and people started talking about the trans character, then the negative reviews started pouring in.
This is also true: You can purchase DLC, review it, and then - assuming it is within two weeks of the purchase date and you haven't played the game for more than two hours - refund it.
A significant number of reviews are legit. A significant number are manufactured outrage about a trans character, about Amber Scott's words, and about the way Safana and possibly Jaheira were written.
Many of the negative reviews use "bad writing" as code to make their reviews look more legitimate, but often they give themselves away.
I am not saying you hate the trans character, or that everyone who is disappointed with the writing hates the trans character, but I do not think it does anyone any favors to ignore the fact that people were trying to carpet bomb SoD with negative reviews.
@BelleSorciere I've gone through many Steam complaints too and came to the opposite conclusion. I also read just about every article mentioning SoD and I know the negativity started a lot earlier than you state.
@BelleSorciere I've gone through many Steam complaints too and came to the opposite conclusion. I also read just about every article mentioning SoD and I know the negativity started a lot earlier than you state.
Steam was mostly positive for three days, and mixed after that - until today. That much is true, and if the current trend continues, the percentage of negative reviews will continue to drop, even if the sheer number remains the same.
Many of those articles talk about just how many reviews complain about the trans character, and include quotes or screenshots of several.
The bugs are getting addressed, Mizhena's writing is getting addressed, legitimate complaints are being addressed, which is pretty much all Beamdog can do in response to the negative reviews that actually make sense. We'll see how many "I just don't like the writing" types will stand by their guns when the writing is improved.
The original BGs remain one of the most well-remembered and highly regarded RPGs of all time, and Safana was one of the most memorable and well-liked NPCs.
Safana isn't even one of the most memorable and well-liked thief NPCs from the first game (in fact, she'd be the least if Skie wasn't around).
She also isn't a character with any depth or memorability to ruin.
Numerous posters just in this thread alone have already said that they feel otherwise, and that's nothing new. Safana has always been a staple of many players' parties, especially evil/unscrupulous ones. I don't know what else to tell you if you're just going to ignore what people are saying, and have been saying for close to two decades.
If Safana is greedy, flirty, and likes Coran at least a bit more than everyone else she flirts with, 100% of her original character is covered, and anything else is a bonus.
Not true, since one of the most basic aspects of her personality is that she continually tried to endear herself to other party members (particularly male ones) in the hopes of manipulating them into doing what she wants. By making her off-putting/offensive to other party members completely contradicts that.
I have no problems with video games tackling current issues in society, but to seemingly take one side over another is inviting drama at best. At worst it is actively provoking people by forcing their favourite character to troll them with a meme.
Safana I was never overly fond of, to be honest. But I never got from playing the game that she was a "sex object" by any means. To me, she was the stereotypical femme fatal. Confident and dangerous, always bragging about her exploits. Not just an arse and boobs with which to initiate a sex scene.
Amber Scott, to me, has fundamentally misunderstood these characters - if she truly believes what she said in that interview.
1/3 of them dislike it but a large percentage of those people dislike it for ridiculous reasons (SJW content, in other words).
A ridiculous reason in your opinion, maybe. For me RPGs are escapism. I used to get this SJW content every single day at school. And sometimes at work too. I don't want it in my games. Yes, I know cis white males are the epitome of evil, and I have to pay taxes to the government so that can be taught in schools, but I am not going to fund it by buying games with this 'content'.
Those negative reviews would be much lower in number if people hadn't started the internet hate machine over the presence of a transgender character in the game, and many of those negative reviews explicitly mention either "SJW" content or the trans character directly. Or they try to dogwhistle it by writing about "bad writing."
A significant number are unhappy with the bugs and that's totally legit.
I should clearly state my point, which is that much of the outrage about SoD has been manufactured.
Don't tell me which of my subjective opinions are legitimate. I have my opinion and you have yours. If you want poorly written transgender characters in your games, fine. I don't like it and won't pay for it.
@BelleSorciere You missed large portions of my point - I clearly focused on Steam and the authentic reviews there. Ignore GOG and Metacritic, focus on Steam where we at least know the reviewers own the game. 1/3 of them dislike it. That's a very large percentage that should not be ignored, much less written off as entirely transphobic, as if that could be only complaint about a game that launched with plenty of bugs.
(Keep in mind I bought it, love it - minus some writing, and continue to support Beamdog.)
1/3 of them dislike it but a large percentage of those people dislike it for ridiculous reasons (SJW content, in other words). Those negative reviews would be much lower in number if people hadn't started the internet hate machine over the presence of a transgender character in the game, and many of those negative reviews explicitly mention either "SJW" content or the trans character directly. Or they try to dogwhistle it by writing about "bad writing."
A significant number are unhappy with the bugs and that's totally legit.
I should clearly state my point, which is that much of the outrage about SoD has been manufactured.
To be fair, A portion of the positive reviews have probably been given the same way. I expect that overall it has probably skewed it quite a bit lower than it would otherwise be (it would need twice as many illegitimate positive reviews than negative for it to be otherwise), but we can't really pretend that it is all going one way there either.
It's probably hard for them to have an accurate picture of all these issues being issues because the goalposts have been moving at high speed since y'all started your complaints.
There's no "moving goalposts," nearly all of the complaints fall under one of three categories: 1. Bugs 2. Poor writing. 3. Failing to stay true to the content/style of the original games.
#2 may be largely subjective, but there's no question about #1, and Amber/Beamdog have not only admitted, but basically boasted about #3.
A ridiculous reason in your opinion, maybe. For me RPGs are escapism. I used to get this SJW content every single day at school. And sometimes at work too. I don't want it in my games. Yes, I know cis white males are the epitome of evil, and I have to pay taxes to the government so that can be taught in schools, but I am not going to fund it by buying games with this 'content'.
No, cisgender white dudes are not the epitome of evil.
I find it interesting that you're selfish enough, however, to think that escapism should only be escapism for you, and that other people (say, transgender people) shouldn't be reflected in media that you want to consume or also have escapist fun.
Like, the game isn't dragging you around forcing you to be a social justice warrior.
Of course, the presence of a transgender person is not anything like "SJW content." It's nothing more than the presence of a transgender person.
Don't tell me which of my subjective opinions are legitimate. I have my opinion and you have yours. If you want poorly written transgender characters in your games, fine. I don't like it and won't pay for it.
She's no more poorly written than any other NPC with a few lines to their name. You could at least be honest that you're holding her existence to a higher standard than other NPCs.
And if you hate the entire game because the completely optional writing for a transgender character is in it, no I don't see your objection as legitimate. I see it as overly entitled. I also strongly suspect your objection to the writing is a thinly veiled attempt at a smoke screen, but we'll see what happens when Mizhena gets revamped. Let me just say I'll believe your objection is actually the writing when/if you buy the game once the writing has been improved. Until then, well... the combination of complaints about "SJW content" and picking out the writing for the transgender character only makes your complaint sound kind of dodgy to me.
Hello friends. Consider this: Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
Didn't know that Aristotle played Baldur's gate thank you my friend.
and Amber/Beamdog have not only admitted, but basically boasted about #3.
As well they might - it's THEIR creative content after all, so naturally they feel proud of it and should not be expected to not say so.
Besides, the current copyright holders of the game, the game system and the particular milieu signed off on their writing, so it's not like they stepped on the toes of anyone that matters....
I could go on. Safana's dialogue would fit right in in slapstick comedy or pornography, and not too much else. She is, even by the standards of BG1, not a realistic or well-developed character. She's a one-note joke. So's Xan and Alora, of course - it's hardly limited to Safana. But any full-length use of her character in an expansion was going to have to broaden and deepen it, because there is almost nothing to stay faithful to.
Xan and Alora don't have ulterior motives that they're pursuing, unlike Safana. Safana may come off as "one-note" ostensibly, but (unlike other "one-note" characters) there's an actual purpose to it within the context of the game. Amber and the others at Beamdog either failed to understand this, or just deliberately ignored it to pursue something else that they wanted to see in the game instead.
Hello friends. Consider this: Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
Didn't know that Aristotle played Baldur's gate thank you my friend.
Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for.
I could go on. Safana's dialogue would fit right in in slapstick comedy or pornography, and not too much else. She is, even by the standards of BG1, not a realistic or well-developed character. She's a one-note joke. So's Xan and Alora, of course - it's hardly limited to Safana. But any full-length use of her character in an expansion was going to have to broaden and deepen it, because there is almost nothing to stay faithful to.
Xan and Alora don't have ulterior motives that they're pursuing, unlike Safana. Safana may come off as "one-note" ostensibly, but (unlike other "one-note" characters) there's an actual purpose to it within the context of the game. Amber and the others at Beamdog either failed to understand this, or just deliberately ignored it to pursue something else that they wanted to see in the game instead.
Yeah, plays like the real Safana died in BG1 and was replaced by an SJW doppleganger.
Yeah, plays like the real Safana died in BG1 and was replaced by an SJW doppleganger.
This would be an extremely funny idea for a quest, thank you for the idea friend. Maybe an offshoot group of doppelgangers that escaped your wrath in Baldur's Gate.
Yeah, plays like the real Safana died in BG1 and was replaced by an SJW doppleganger.
This would be an extremely funny idea for a quest, thank you for the idea friend. Maybe an offshoot group of doppelgangers that escaped your wrath in Baldur's Gate.
No doppelgangers escape the wrath of Abdel Adrian.
and Amber/Beamdog have not only admitted, but basically boasted about #3.
As well they might - it's THEIR creative content after all, so naturally they feel proud of it and should not be expected to not say so.
Besides, the current copyright holders of the game, the game system and the particular milieu signed off on their writing, so it's not like they stepped on the toes of anyone that matters....
And therein lies two of the biggest issues that has led to this debate:
1. Beamdog focused too much on "THEIR creative content" and not enough on building on the content that was already there.
2. Did Beamdog not consider the feelings/expectations of its own customers to be "toes that matter"? It's the longstanding and devoted fans who have maintained interest in this franchise for nearly two decades, and made making the EEs even viable in the first place. Whether or not Amber or any other Beamdog member "liked" the way the original characters or content were depicted should've been irrelevant - the feelings of their customers and whether or not they wanted any of that changed should've been their foremost consideration, but now they only seem to be considering it as a last resort, and likely after much of the damage has been irreversible.
Yeah, plays like the real Safana died in BG1 and was replaced by an SJW doppleganger.
This would be an extremely funny idea for a quest, thank you for the idea friend. Maybe an offshoot group of doppelgangers that escaped your wrath in Baldur's Gate.
No doppelgangers escape the wrath of Abdel Adrian.
I think you mean Foolio Displasius, Destroyer of the Seven Suns! Raagh!
Strange that Scott never felt the need to fix the male characters in the game, come to think of it. 80 percent of them are either dumb, insane, or sociopaths. One might argue that they are poor representations of males.
Oh my god....we've gone from complaints about a trans npc, to complaints about an Amber Scott interview, to complaints that the trans character wasn't authentic enough, to complaints that the writing is universally terrible....and now people seem to want Safana to be completely rewritten because of some jerk-off fantasy they had during 1998. We've gone well past moving the goalposts at this point. Now we're just moving the game to completely different stadiums every 18-24 hrs.....
Strange that Scott never felt the need to fix the male characters in the game, come to think of it. 80 percent of them are either dumb, insane, or sociopaths. One might argue that they are poor representations of males.
Not if this forum the last week is any indication....
I could go on. Safana's dialogue would fit right in in slapstick comedy or pornography, and not too much else. She is, even by the standards of BG1, not a realistic or well-developed character. She's a one-note joke. So's Xan and Alora, of course - it's hardly limited to Safana. But any full-length use of her character in an expansion was going to have to broaden and deepen it, because there is almost nothing to stay faithful to.
Xan and Alora don't have ulterior motives that they're pursuing, unlike Safana. Safana may come off as "one-note" ostensibly, but (unlike other "one-note" characters) there's an actual purpose to it within the context of the game. Amber and the others at Beamdog either failed to understand this, or just deliberately ignored it to pursue something else that they wanted to see in the game instead.
Yeah, plays like the real Safana died in BG1 and was replaced by an SJW doppleganger.
While she certainly is a bit different, and I'm not sure how I feel about it, this is far, far, far from the truth.
Oh my god....we've gone from complaints about a trans npc, to complaints about an Amber Scott interview, to complaints that the trans character wasn't authentic enough, to complaints that the writing is universally terrible....and now people seem to want Safana to be completely rewritten because of some jerk-off fantasy they had during 1998. We've gone well past moving the goalposts at this point. Now we're just moving the game to completely different stadiums every 18-24 hrs.....
Strange that Scott never felt the need to fix the male characters in the game, come to think of it. 80 percent of them are either dumb, insane, or sociopaths. One might argue that they are poor representations of males.
Not if this forum the last week is any indication....
Isn't it nice that equality includes such double standards. [is there a sarc tag here?]
Comments
Thank You Beamdog, I'm advertising for you free on Facebook!
A significant number are unhappy with the bugs and that's totally legit.
I should clearly state my point, which is that much of the outrage about SoD has been manufactured.
So whether it is the improvement of videogames or the discussion of then, let us try to form the habit of excellence.
I understand that there are certain types of evil characters who I guess would do something like that (Stupid Evil alignment). However, that is just very specific and touchy grounds to attack a character on, and some players may have had similar, horrible experiences with that exact sort of thing. I don't know of a single other NPC in the entire game that can be verbally crushed in such a cruel, particularized manner. You're not given half as much of an opportunity to vehemently insult any of the other supporting NPCs at the camp.
If you must have an insulting line, then why not make it generalized like "thanks for that dull story" or "too much information". No need to be excessively hurtful in ways that are inconsistent with the rest of the game.
Asking for things like viciously insulting trans characters for being trans is something that I bet even the majority of gamergaters would view as being on the fringe.
This is what is true: For the first three days or so, the reviews were "mostly positive." After the video of that guy talking to Mizhena and then killing her came out and people started talking about the trans character, then the negative reviews started pouring in.
This is also true: You can purchase DLC, review it, and then - assuming it is within two weeks of the purchase date and you haven't played the game for more than two hours - refund it.
A significant number of reviews are legit. A significant number are manufactured outrage about a trans character, about Amber Scott's words, and about the way Safana and possibly Jaheira were written.
Many of the negative reviews use "bad writing" as code to make their reviews look more legitimate, but often they give themselves away.
I am not saying you hate the trans character, or that everyone who is disappointed with the writing hates the trans character, but I do not think it does anyone any favors to ignore the fact that people were trying to carpet bomb SoD with negative reviews.
Many of those articles talk about just how many reviews complain about the trans character, and include quotes or screenshots of several.
The bugs are getting addressed, Mizhena's writing is getting addressed, legitimate complaints are being addressed, which is pretty much all Beamdog can do in response to the negative reviews that actually make sense. We'll see how many "I just don't like the writing" types will stand by their guns when the writing is improved.
Not true, since one of the most basic aspects of her personality is that she continually tried to endear herself to other party members (particularly male ones) in the hopes of manipulating them into doing what she wants. By making her off-putting/offensive to other party members completely contradicts that.
1. Bugs
2. Poor writing.
3. Failing to stay true to the content/style of the original games.
#2 may be largely subjective, but there's no question about #1, and Amber/Beamdog have not only admitted, but basically boasted about #3.
I find it interesting that you're selfish enough, however, to think that escapism should only be escapism for you, and that other people (say, transgender people) shouldn't be reflected in media that you want to consume or also have escapist fun.
Like, the game isn't dragging you around forcing you to be a social justice warrior.
Of course, the presence of a transgender person is not anything like "SJW content." It's nothing more than the presence of a transgender person. She's no more poorly written than any other NPC with a few lines to their name. You could at least be honest that you're holding her existence to a higher standard than other NPCs.
And if you hate the entire game because the completely optional writing for a transgender character is in it, no I don't see your objection as legitimate. I see it as overly entitled. I also strongly suspect your objection to the writing is a thinly veiled attempt at a smoke screen, but we'll see what happens when Mizhena gets revamped. Let me just say I'll believe your objection is actually the writing when/if you buy the game once the writing has been improved. Until then, well... the combination of complaints about "SJW content" and picking out the writing for the transgender character only makes your complaint sound kind of dodgy to me.
Besides, the current copyright holders of the game, the game system and the particular milieu signed off on their writing, so it's not like they stepped on the toes of anyone that matters....
1. Beamdog focused too much on "THEIR creative content" and not enough on building on the content that was already there.
2. Did Beamdog not consider the feelings/expectations of its own customers to be "toes that matter"? It's the longstanding and devoted fans who have maintained interest in this franchise for nearly two decades, and made making the EEs even viable in the first place. Whether or not Amber or any other Beamdog member "liked" the way the original characters or content were depicted should've been irrelevant - the feelings of their customers and whether or not they wanted any of that changed should've been their foremost consideration, but now they only seem to be considering it as a last resort, and likely after much of the damage has been irreversible.
Not if this forum the last week is any indication....
[is there a sarc tag here?]