@Ayiekie I do not need to condemn strangers on the internet to bolster my own stance, especially when I haven't seen any blatant transphobia on this forum. Keep in mind they're removing just about anything offensive.
There are plenty of articles with a negative stance on SoD, and for many reasons other than Mizhena, Minsc, Jaheira, and Safana, I can't even take you seriously. Oh an all the articles that take a positive stance? They ONLY talk about Mizhena.
Their game, their content. They make the decisions
Our money, our business. We buy the games.
Of course they can do whatever they want, but there can be consequences like a loss in business. They took that risk and after seeing how real it became, they started fixing their game and their content, they changed their decisions because of our money and business.
@Ayiekie I do not need to condemn strangers on the internet to bolster my own stance, especially when I haven't seen any blatant transphobia on this forum. Keep in mind they're removing just about anything offensive.
You didn't have any problem criticising me, several members of the Beamdog team, and others, and we, at least, are certainly strangers. If you haven't seen transphobia on this forum - indeed, in this thread - then I doubt you would admit to seeing it anywhere. Which is unfortunate, but que sera, sera.
There are plenty of articles with a negative stance on SoD, and for many reasons other than Mizhena, Minsc, Jaheira, and Safana, I can't even take you seriously. Oh an all the articles that take a positive stance? They ONLY talk about Mizhena.
The RockPaperShotgun review, literally the first thing that came up for my "siege of dragonspear reviews" google search, is generally positive with caveats and only mentions Mizhena to express bafflement why she is such a big deal.
I think that the level of nosiness and inclusion is not even close to Drizzt's situation: the guy who made the meeting with this drow obviously smoked some serious righteousness books for breakfast. Although we get no repercussions in BG1, his BG2 "savior" takes all your "Do'Urden stuff" away if you manage to kill Drizzt again. Talk about the cringe, but it really helped me with the perspective. But still, Drizzt's dialogue rubbed in a right "breaking the fourth wall" way, while Mizhena's was very poorly written. Let's hope for a brilliant rewrite!
Their game, their content. They make the decisions
Our money, our business. We buy the games.
Of course they can do whatever they want, but there can be consequences like a loss in business. They took that risk and after seeing how real it became, they started fixing their game and their content, they changed their decisions because of our money and business.
Well we will see how far any post-publication changes go. Of course, they get to choose to pander to whomever they please. The marketplace will decide in the end, of course, but the people demanding change here do not make up the entire marketplace for BD's games.
So far, I am aware that they took Minsc's comment [which I personally enjoyed] out of the game. I hear that they are going to re-work the Trans character to be a bit more than the cipher it currently is. Haven't heard anything else concerning "SJW stuff being shoved down people's throats" being removed and/or toned down even.
So they are batting .500 with me right now. We'll see what further changes, if any, get implemented.
@Ayiekie Look at my comment on page 12. I literally apologized to Amber Scott on behalf of her harassers. Who the hell in Beamdog have I personally criticized? And you? I just don't agree with a single word you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it.
Why is the inclusion of a trans character a minor NPC a token gesture? Why is the mere existence of a trans character any sort of gesture at all?
If it is, in fact, a symbolic gesture, why is that a bad thing?
(You also failed to answer whether any minor black NPC is also a token gesture. Actually, I'll do one better with a specific example: Tamoko is East Asian, and specifically named and implied as Japanese-analogue. She is a minor NPC. Is she a "token gesture"?)
@Ayiekie Look at my comment on page 12. I literally apologized to Amber Scott on behalf of her harassers. Who the hell in Beamdog have I personally criticized? And you? I just don't agree with a single word you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it.
I know you did. Let's put it this way - there's a reason I was more extensively engaging with you, and asked you to call out some of the transphobic people here.
I don't really want to get into an argument as to what constitutes personally criticising people (though I will note that "SJW" is a meaningless perjorative once again, and using it is by definition criticising people). If you don't believe you have, fair enough - our definitions of the term differ.
@Ayiekie They do differ, as Amber Scott proudly declares herself as a SJW. I dont think I've called anyone that, though. If I see transphobia, and have a witty comment, you can bet I'd say it, but I haven't seen it. Admittedly I use the forums more for mods than to talk about politics - but I have been keeping up with this and there has been either very little blatant transphobia on this site OR Beamdog is very good at taking it down quickly.
@Ayiekie Tamoko minor!? Killer of Gorion and lover of Sarevok minor!?!?! Oh lord of murder.
After all this time!! I didn't know it was Tamoko herself who killed Gorion (or I could have just forgotten)! I've only played BG1 once (Edit: not twice my mistake; had several restart though. More of a BG2 fan, played gazillion times) anyway...but still! That b*tch. ..wait, wasn't it Sarevok??
@Ayiekie Ahem...who's that lady who casts Dispel Magic? Legally, she is also his murderer. You talk with her in length in Baldur's Gate city and eventually kill her, but she returns in Sarevok's ToB epilogue. She is a major character critical to the story, all the way from BG1 chapter one to the end of ToB, where Sarevok wanders the world, still loving her.
Nice gesture and a good first step by the CEO. It is the first professional response I have heard from Beamdog since this whole mess started. I can't say this addresses everything, but it is certainly a step in the right direction. Just a few comments that I hope Beamdog reads and responds to.
1. I support Gamergate and I do not want Beamdog to censor themselves. That would stand against everything our side has been fighting for! However, from the response it seems to me that the developers themselves believe the line was out of place, so if this really is the reasoning behind it - I am happy to hear Beamdog is removing it. As long as this is done of their own volition, I am for it.
2. I still didn't hear an apology from Beamdog for treating a huge portion of their costumers as second class citizens. People were banned from the forums under false accusations of being sexists, misogynists, and worse. Beamdog has without any evidence blamed this whole affair on Gamergate, unwilling to admit that people are perfectly capable of acting on their own. That they went to media with this unsupported lie is even worse.
I mean, I am married to a colored-minority person, I accepted her child from her first marriage as my own and I adore him and treat him as my own son. I myself am an immigrant living in a foreign land and have been pro social justice my whole life. I don't know how it is even possible to be more progressive than me! One of the reasons I love fantasy is because it is so diverse. Original Baldur's Gate had a girdle of gender transformation, Elminster himself was transformed into a woman in one of the books, there are characters who transform into animals, gods who appear to mortals in male and female forms. Hell, you could even make an argument that the Bhaalspawn himself went through gender transformation. Viconia's whole story line was about adapting to the life on the surface and dealing with the racism of surface dwellers. And we all loved those games. To then run to the media and lie how this is all about trans-misogyny is not only unprofessional, but it also greatly contributed to this whole mess.
A short statement that this was a mistake and that every fan of the game is welcome would return the confidence many people such as myself have lost.
3. Also, can you fix this piece of bad writing too while you are at it? You need to watch the whole video to get it. Ignore the Minsc line in the end. My problem is with the line: "Take them alivie!" and then the enemy slaughters you even if you don't fight back. Can you change that line into: "Kill them all!"
@Ayiekie They do differ, as Amber Scott proudly declares herself as a SJW. I dont think I've called anyone that, though. If I see transphobia, and have a witty comment, you can bet I'd say it, but I haven't seen it. Admittedly I use the forums more for mods than to talk about politics - but I have been keeping up with this and there has been either very little blatant transphobia on this site OR Beamdog is very good at taking it down quickly.
Over the last week I have seen posts explicitly saying LGBT content has no place in mainstream games. I have seen a particular group of people abused as 'abnormal'. I have seen the word 'Tranny' and 'Trannies' used in several posts, labels that are generally considered as offensive. I have seen an individual employee of Beamdog named and called an expletive I wouldn't even asterix, and the justification for that abuse? That said employee is writing SJW propaganda and shoving it down our throats. And so on and so on. You might argue that these posts represent 'very little'. Having followed the forum for the last few days, I respectfully disagree.
@Ayiekie They do differ, as Amber Scott proudly declares herself as a SJW. I dont think I've called anyone that, though. If I see transphobia, and have a witty comment, you can bet I'd say it, but I haven't seen it. Admittedly I use the forums more for mods than to talk about politics - but I have been keeping up with this and there has been either very little blatant transphobia on this site OR Beamdog is very good at taking it down quickly.
Over the last week I have seen posts explicitly saying LGBT content has no place in mainstream games. I have seen a particular group of people abused as 'abnormal'. I have seen the word 'Tranny' and 'Trannies' used in several posts, labels that are generally considered as offensive. I have seen an individual employee of Beamdog named and called an expletive I wouldn't even asterix, and the justification for that abuse? That said employee is writing SJW propaganda and shoving it down our throats. And so on and so on. You might argue that these posts represent 'very little'. Having followed the forum for the last few days, I respectfully disagree.
I don't know what you've seen, but you also saw an "Irony Crisis" (good joke) in one of my statements completely lacking irony and you've yet to explain.
@Ayiekie Ahem...who's that lady who casts Dispel Magic? Legally, she is also his murderer. You talk with her in length in Baldur's Gate city and eventually kill her, but she returns in Sarevok's ToB epilogue. She is a major character critical to the story, all the way from BG1 chapter one to the end of ToB, where Sarevok wanders the world, still loving her.
I'm talking about BG1. She casts Dispel Magic and often fails and then Sarevok kills him anyways. Calling her Gorion's killer is simply wrong, flat-out.
If you want to call Tamoko a major character that is critical to the story, I suppose I can't stop you. But I'll bet more players of the game remember Noober than remember her.
@BGLover Sure, you don't have to explain. It's just not irony at all. It's not even a contradiction or sarcasm. I don't know what you read and interpreted, that's why I wanted an explanation. I don't know what you've read on the forums, literally all I know about you is that you see irony where there is none. If you're legitimately reading a lot more negativity on the same exact threads than I am, it's possible I'm getting there after the censorship, or you're interpreting negativity where there is none. I don't know.
@Ayiekie They do differ, as Amber Scott proudly declares herself as a SJW. I dont think I've called anyone that, though. If I see transphobia, and have a witty comment, you can bet I'd say it, but I haven't seen it. Admittedly I use the forums more for mods than to talk about politics - but I have been keeping up with this and there has been either very little blatant transphobia on this site OR Beamdog is very good at taking it down quickly.
Over the last week I have seen posts explicitly saying LGBT content has no place in mainstream games. I have seen a particular group of people abused as 'abnormal'. I have seen the word 'Tranny' and 'Trannies' used in several posts, labels that are generally considered as offensive. I have seen an individual employee of Beamdog named and called an expletive I wouldn't even asterix, and the justification for that abuse? That said employee is writing SJW propaganda and shoving it down our throats. And so on and so on. You might argue that these posts represent 'very little'. Having followed the forum for the last few days, I respectfully disagree.
Well, having followed the same forums since this whole mess started, I also disagree with your evaluation of those comments. You do not seem to understand that people have very different sensitivities about these topics. There are many transgender youtubers who call themselves trannies. There are feminists who call themselves sluts. There are black people who call themselves niggers. And there are people who have nothing against those groups, but are using that term to take a jab at rampant political correctness. Who are you to judge these people as -ist and -phobe?
People are different and what offends you, will not offend another person.
About the said employee, she did come out and literally said she tries to push SJW stuff into everything she writes, because she finds writing about straight, cis, white people boring. She also said that Safana was sexist, and we know she was changed. The argument is that changed just means more content was added, but that is a lie. Her personality has been changed too. If Amber put that personality on Shar-Teal's character, I would love it! Because Shar-Teal is the kind of character who would mock you for the smallest thing. But it doesn't suit Safana! And we know that the reason behind this change was political, because the writer said so! Its all out there. I seriously don't understand how can you people reason so badly.
I guess that is what happens when all the reasonable people get banned and you create an echo-chamber of... well.. I dont want to get banned again. You get the picture.
@Ayiekie Ahem...who's that lady who casts Dispel Magic? Legally, she is also his murderer. You talk with her in length in Baldur's Gate city and eventually kill her, but she returns in Sarevok's ToB epilogue. She is a major character critical to the story, all the way from BG1 chapter one to the end of ToB, where Sarevok wanders the world, still loving her.
I'm talking about BG1. She casts Dispel Magic and often fails and then Sarevok kills him anyways. Calling her Gorion's killer is simply wrong, flat-out.
If you want to call Tamoko a major character that is critical to the story, I suppose I can't stop you. But I'll bet more players of the game remember Noober than remember her.
I disagree again. She cast multiple damaging spells, she was an accessory to Gorion's murder AND the only surviving attacker other than Sarevok, that's significant. Her act of attempted murder resulted in a successful murder which makes her a murderer.
If you think posts that call a certain group of people abnormal is ok, fair enough.
If you think it is acceptable to state LGBT content should not be put into mainstream video games, fair enough.
If you think it is perfectly acceptable to single out one particular employee of Bemdog, and call them and their attitudes hate filled, disgusting and despicable, fair enough.
If you think it is ok to call anyone an expletive I won't repeat (even in asterix), fair enough.
Sensitivities?
I happen to think these things are bile and vitriol, and have no place in any discussion of a video game.
And before people think that I am against criticism, I'm not.
As I've said on a previous post, I fully support people criticising Beamdog about the content of Siege of Dragonspear, about the bugs, about the lack of functionality, about the quality (or otherwise) of the writing, about unnessacery changes to the UI, about rushing out a product that wasn't ready (I've seen a fair view of those criticisms of Beamdog on here over the years).
What I object to is bile and vitriol, the insults, harassment, bullying and abuse, and the attempts by some to undermine and discredit a video game for reasons that I think have almost nothing (if anything) to do with that game.
I disagree again. She cast multiple damaging spells, she was an accessory to Gorion's murder AND the only surviving attacker other than Sarevok, that's significant. Her act of attempted murder resulted in a successful murder which makes her a murderer.
Well, charname decided when they were going to leave Candlekeep, whereupon they got ambushed, so obviously CHARNAME KILLED GORION.
I mean, if you want to call the person who did no damage to Gorion "his killer", when there was a person with a big sword who shoved it in Gorion's guts, you can go ahead, but your usage of language is in this case pretty idiosyncratic.
Googling for "tamoko killed gorion" gets 0 hits, fwiw. Maybe this can be the new JFK?
I disagree again. She cast multiple damaging spells, she was an accessory to Gorion's murder AND the only surviving attacker other than Sarevok, that's significant. Her act of attempted murder resulted in a successful murder which makes her a murderer.
Well, charname decided when they were going to leave Candlekeep, whereupon they got ambushed, so obviously CHARNAME KILLED GORION.
I mean, if you want to call the person who did no damage to Gorion "his killer", when there was a person with a big sword who shoved it in Gorion's guts, you can go ahead, but your usage of language is in this case pretty idiosyncratic.
Googling for "tamoko killed gorion" gets 0 hits, fwiw. Maybe this can be the new JFK?
Why the heck would anyone write an article on Tamoko killing Gorion? She attacks him with the intent to kill. He gets killed as a result. That is textbook murder. Not manslaughter, probably not even accessory to murder. Sarevok AND Tamoko, albeit to a slightly lesser extent, killed Gorion together. Not CHARNAME, that's a strawman argument and you know it.
About the said employee, she did come out and literally said she tries to push SJW stuff into everything she writes, because she finds writing about straight, cis, white people boring.
You are, on top of your many other fine qualities, a liar.
What Amber Scott said was, quote:
"I don't like writing about straight/white/cis people all the time. It's not reflective of the real world, it sets up s/w/c as the "normal" baseline from which "other" characters must be added, and it's boring."
In no way, shape or form does that say or imply that she finds writing straight/white/cis people boring.
@Ayiekie Ahem...who's that lady who casts Dispel Magic? Legally, she is also his murderer. You talk with her in length in Baldur's Gate city and eventually kill her, but she returns in Sarevok's ToB epilogue. She is a major character critical to the story, all the way from BG1 chapter one to the end of ToB, where Sarevok wanders the world, still loving her.
I'm talking about BG1. She casts Dispel Magic and often fails and then Sarevok kills him anyways. Calling her Gorion's killer is simply wrong, flat-out.
If you want to call Tamoko a major character that is critical to the story, I suppose I can't stop you. But I'll bet more players of the game remember Noober than remember her.
I disagree again. She cast multiple damaging spells, she was an accessory to Gorion's murder AND the only surviving attacker other than Sarevok, that's significant. Her act of attempted murder resulted in a successful murder which makes her a murderer.
Well Sarovok killed Gorion, Tamoko helped. It's not her killing Gorion that should be the crux of your argument. She is major in that she helps us understand Sarevok, our antagonist in BG1, however she is not major in the full scope of the game.
Comments
There are plenty of articles with a negative stance on SoD, and for many reasons other than Mizhena, Minsc, Jaheira, and Safana, I can't even take you seriously. Oh an all the articles that take a positive stance? They ONLY talk about Mizhena.
What is a "token gesture", and why is Mizhena one?
Is any minor black NPC a "token gesture"?
Of course they can do whatever they want, but there can be consequences like a loss in business. They took that risk and after seeing how real it became, they started fixing their game and their content, they changed their decisions because of our money and business.
an action or a decision that is so small or inconsequential as to be only symbolic. "
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/token+gesture
res ipsa loquitur
So... no. You are wrong.
So far, I am aware that they took Minsc's comment [which I personally enjoyed] out of the game. I hear that they are going to re-work the Trans character to be a bit more than the cipher it currently is. Haven't heard anything else concerning "SJW stuff being shoved down people's throats" being removed and/or toned down even.
So they are batting .500 with me right now. We'll see what further changes, if any, get implemented.
If it is, in fact, a symbolic gesture, why is that a bad thing?
(You also failed to answer whether any minor black NPC is also a token gesture. Actually, I'll do one better with a specific example: Tamoko is East Asian, and specifically named and implied as Japanese-analogue. She is a minor NPC. Is she a "token gesture"?)
I don't really want to get into an argument as to what constitutes personally criticising people (though I will note that "SJW" is a meaningless perjorative once again, and using it is by definition criticising people). If you don't believe you have, fair enough - our definitions of the term differ.
Sarevok kills Gorion; in the normal game you won't even realise Tomoko was there unless you turn all the combat messages on.
She shows up again very late in the game for one scene, then one scene more where you either kill her or talk her into leaving on her own.
She is a minor NPC.
1. I support Gamergate and I do not want Beamdog to censor themselves. That would stand against everything our side has been fighting for! However, from the response it seems to me that the developers themselves believe the line was out of place, so if this really is the reasoning behind it - I am happy to hear Beamdog is removing it. As long as this is done of their own volition, I am for it.
2. I still didn't hear an apology from Beamdog for treating a huge portion of their costumers as second class citizens. People were banned from the forums under false accusations of being sexists, misogynists, and worse. Beamdog has without any evidence blamed this whole affair on Gamergate, unwilling to admit that people are perfectly capable of acting on their own. That they went to media with this unsupported lie is even worse.
I mean, I am married to a colored-minority person, I accepted her child from her first marriage as my own and I adore him and treat him as my own son. I myself am an immigrant living in a foreign land and have been pro social justice my whole life. I don't know how it is even possible to be more progressive than me! One of the reasons I love fantasy is because it is so diverse. Original Baldur's Gate had a girdle of gender transformation, Elminster himself was transformed into a woman in one of the books, there are characters who transform into animals, gods who appear to mortals in male and female forms. Hell, you could even make an argument that the Bhaalspawn himself went through gender transformation. Viconia's whole story line was about adapting to the life on the surface and dealing with the racism of surface dwellers. And we all loved those games. To then run to the media and lie how this is all about trans-misogyny is not only unprofessional, but it also greatly contributed to this whole mess.
A short statement that this was a mistake and that every fan of the game is welcome would return the confidence many people such as myself have lost.
3. Also, can you fix this piece of bad writing too while you are at it? You need to watch the whole video to get it. Ignore the Minsc line in the end. My problem is with the line: "Take them alivie!" and then the enemy slaughters you even if you don't fight back. Can you change that line into: "Kill them all!"
That would make much more sense.
Jesus, I hope I don't get banned again under false accusation of being sexist harasser.
Fair point, though; I should be more specific when I note that "sjw" is inherently perjorative.
And I didn't feel the need to explain my statement.
And as for not knowing what I've seen, what I've seen and read (on this forum) this week has been a real eye opener for me.
If you want to call Tamoko a major character that is critical to the story, I suppose I can't stop you. But I'll bet more players of the game remember Noober than remember her.
I don't know what you've read on the forums, literally all I know about you is that you see irony where there is none. If you're legitimately reading a lot more negativity on the same exact threads than I am, it's possible I'm getting there after the censorship, or you're interpreting negativity where there is none. I don't know.
People are different and what offends you, will not offend another person.
About the said employee, she did come out and literally said she tries to push SJW stuff into everything she writes, because she finds writing about straight, cis, white people boring. She also said that Safana was sexist, and we know she was changed. The argument is that changed just means more content was added, but that is a lie. Her personality has been changed too. If Amber put that personality on Shar-Teal's character, I would love it! Because Shar-Teal is the kind of character who would mock you for the smallest thing. But it doesn't suit Safana! And we know that the reason behind this change was political, because the writer said so! Its all out there. I seriously don't understand how can you people reason so badly.
I guess that is what happens when all the reasonable people get banned and you create an echo-chamber of... well.. I dont want to get banned again. You get the picture.
If you think posts that call a certain group of people abnormal is ok, fair enough.
If you think it is acceptable to state LGBT content should not be put into mainstream video games, fair enough.
If you think it is perfectly acceptable to single out one particular employee of Bemdog, and call them and their attitudes hate filled, disgusting and despicable, fair enough.
If you think it is ok to call anyone an expletive I won't repeat (even in asterix), fair enough.
Sensitivities?
I happen to think these things are bile and vitriol, and have no place in any discussion of a video game.
As I've said on a previous post, I fully support people criticising Beamdog about the content of Siege of Dragonspear, about the bugs, about the lack of functionality, about the quality (or otherwise) of the writing, about unnessacery changes to the UI, about rushing out a product that wasn't ready (I've seen a fair view of those criticisms of Beamdog on here over the years).
What I object to is bile and vitriol, the insults, harassment, bullying and abuse, and the attempts by some to undermine and discredit a video game for reasons that I think have almost nothing (if anything) to do with that game.
I mean, if you want to call the person who did no damage to Gorion "his killer", when there was a person with a big sword who shoved it in Gorion's guts, you can go ahead, but your usage of language is in this case pretty idiosyncratic.
Googling for "tamoko killed gorion" gets 0 hits, fwiw. Maybe this can be the new JFK?
What Amber Scott said was, quote:
"I don't like writing about straight/white/cis people all the time. It's not reflective of the real world, it sets up s/w/c as the "normal" baseline from which "other" characters must be added, and it's boring."
In no way, shape or form does that say or imply that she finds writing straight/white/cis people boring.