Bala's axe should exist in BG:EE, so that's why I mentioned it. You're right in that it's not in BG2.
Miscast magic allows a save, true. But cumulative spell failure of the wizard slayer also requires you hit the target, so it's not like that ability automatically works either. Silencing a caster also completely blocks spells if I'm not mistaken, and clerics and mages can do this too. My point here is that there are many ways to do what the wizard slayer does.
I believe the character is viable, just like you do. But I don't think it's unstoppable. I think it badly needs to be changed. Wizard Slayer is one of the top kits ppl want improved. Right up there with Shapeshifter and Beastmaster. All *can* be good, but making them good shouldn't be so hard.
Melissan and Irenicus are both rumored to NOT be affected by the Wizard Slayers inate magic disruption ability which further gimps and already mediocre kit. It's not that I don't like wizard slayer but we're arguing flat magic resist over things like Berserker rage which makes you outright immune to what scares most fighter types the most. That is disable effects such as hold, sleep, charm etc.
This debate has really kicked off, if you like Wizard Slayers play one I guess. I just think there's better fighter/thief duals. I usually play with a full party so I don't think I've ever had a level 40 fighter, I've certainly had a monk before with insane magic resistance. Which I'd say is the class to be if you're striving for that. Disrupt magic, regardless of the arguement in its favour isn't enough to offset being limited to only magic weapons & armor. The kit restrictions for Kensai seem much more valid.
@SandmanCCL I can't remember Anomen having improved whirlwind haha that is broken, maybe early pre-patch? Greater Deathblow or Critical Strike? Deathblow just kills level 12 or lower enemies. Staff of the Ram is fantastic but I'd be more prone to TWF + Improved Haste + Assassination (apparently you're only meant to get on use of it though but I've always had more). Thats my old trick, 8 attacks x5 (x7 for assassin). It could be only at really high XP, my duals have only ever had HLAs relevant to their second class. Fighter/Assassin or Fighter/Swashbuckler both in my mind are Glglglglglglg
Staff of the Ram + invisible Smite would be great fun. Critical hit blowback then switch to a ranged weapon. I've heard people aren't that keen on Smite, I've always enjoyed it. Used it alot with ranged characters. Slims out the ememy ranks.
I very well might. I actually want to run a full evil campaign for once and I'm in a rut trying to decide which classes to run with it. I'll post a topic in a moment and you can give me your ideas there
It's odd how most people want the perfect fighter right away and aren't interested in investing time or soloing to get to a lvl were massive MR and HLA's make this Kit amazing.
I don't know how you can say that with a straight face. Saying "look what this guy can do at 40!" translates to "Look what this guy can do against Melissan and only her!" Even then, hitting the level cap is fairly difficult if you use a full party through BG2 + ToB. Just saying if the only purpose of your build is to look at end game potential, who cares? Everyone is crazy and can do whatever at that point.
There are far too many aspects of the game Wizard Slayers fail at.
-They make crappy tanks because they can't utilize rings/cloaks/amulets/gloves that further increase AC.
-A plain fighter is more dangerous in melee as he can increase Thac0 and damage through gear. He can also have good enough magic resistance to negate the nastier things mages can throw at you by way of potion and scroll and friendly buffs.
-Utilizing potions beyond healing ones is paramount to success.
-Wizard Slayers would be good ARCHERS if they worked properly but without mods, wizard slayer miscast chance is not applied on ranged damage.
It's just a stupid kit. Wizard slayers don't even really help all that much against wizards because they can't get through wizard defenses. The most important guy in your fights against mages is another mage casting buff-stripping abilities like Breach and the like. After you get rid of stoneskins and mantles, a regular fighter/paladin/barbarian/ranger can pretty much one-shot a mage anyway.
It's simply pointless. It fails at the things warriors are best at (raw right-click damage) for negligible magic resist which ends up being pointless if you've got the sense to bring along some potions for situations you encounter strong magic, and applies a chance to miscast magic on hit but then again you can utilize level 5 druid spell slots to do the same thing. Pointless, pointless, pointless.
If they removed the stupid penalty that doesn't let them equip anything beyond a helmet and armor, they'd be good. Just have to think of a different creative penalty instead, because that one makes them suck.
You stated "this ability DOES not bypass Protection from Magical Weapons and similar spells as you erroneously imply." THIS is WRONG
IF "weapon has no effect" is NOT displayed it WILL work, you do remember to carry NORMAL not magical weapons right for this eventuality. NORMAL weapons bypass Protection from Magical Weapons. Remember the Magic Golems in ToB? Only normal weapons hurt them, same thing here.
@Gloomfrost Leaving aside SCS uses PfMW on creatures immune to non-magical weapons, and Mantles on normal casters, we are on square one, if you can actually hit the mage (e.g. non-magical weapon vs. PfMW) then a pathetic 10% spell failure per hit is nothing to write home about, because you already have disrupted the mage's spellcasting (within BG there's no concentration check, and even an arrow causing 1 dmg has 100% chance to disrupt spellcasting).
It becomes slightly better against those boss-like characters who can take 10 hits and survive, such as dragons (not SCS dragons though - they'd just lower WS magic resistance in a second), I give you that, but in those battles both a Barbarian and a Berserker would still performs 100 times better because of incredibly higher survivability (e.g. more hp, tons of resistnces and immunities, etc.), higher offensive potential and much better equipment (which is a real game-changing factor considering how ridiculously powerful are items within BG2).
I firmly believe it's the most unstoppable character if understood correctly.
Unstoppable?!? LOL
In melee any other fighter class would beat him, and intelligent casters (e.g. SCS ones) can easily handle them too by simply casting a 5th lvl spell and chosing the right protections. Just so you know, a lich under PfMW is COMPLETELY IMMUNE to a WS for 4 rounds.
Short story: the real Wizard Slayer within BG is the INQUISITOR. Keldorn is the unstoppable character against mages, even more with vanilla's overpowered Carsomyr.
P.S When confronting characters don't use the 40th level to compare them, it makes no sense. You should confront them in the whole progress. A L40 WS may have 100% mr, but for 2/3 of the game your WS won't have more than 10-20%.
@Demivrgvs How do you think a WS with Wizard Slayer Rebalancing would perform in, say, in a game with SCS II installed? (Or SCS for BG:EE for that matter.) Because that's how I'll be playing, I'm sure, after the first vanilla run when each EE is released.
@Lemernis aVENGER did a good job, and his kit is 100 times better than vanilla's one. My own KR's version will be kinda similar in certain aspects, but I think I'll make it much more cool.
This occurred to me in another thread touching on the kit, but I think now that the main tweak I would like to see to this kit... or maybe this could simply be an option via mod component... is to allow them to use divinely enchanted armor and weapons.
Because even in Amn, for example, where there is such deep cultural and governmental prejudice and hostility towards arcane wizardry, religion still exists everywhere, and priests are still able to cast divine magic without anyone getting upset. I suppose if the magic comes from a god its seen as okay... it's never really spelled out even in Lands of Intrigue, but I think that's a reasonable conclusion.
This would offer an opportunity to add some cool items, i.e., divinely enchanted stuff.
This occurred to me in another thread touching on the kit, but I think now that the main tweak I would like to see to this kit... or maybe this could simply be an option via mod component... is to allow them to use divinely enchanted armor and weapons.
Regarding your suggestion: it makes sense, but KR's WS won't have the need for it because my current version can use magic items as much as he/she wishes.
The current drawbacks of my suggested Wizard Slayer are: a) Cannot wear medium or heavy armors, nor use large or medium shields. b) Cannot use neither Offensive Stance nor Defensive Stance. c) Cannot use Called Shot. d) Cannot dual to mage classes.
a) Wizard Slayers hunt mages, and against them they need to be as fast as possible, they don't encumber themselves. Also note that KR's Wizard Slayer will make a great anti-mage archer now, as all his abilities now work with ranged weapons as well.
b) and c) are new feats available to KR's True Fighters. The formers are PnP Power Attack and Combat Expertise respectively, while c) is a refined version of vanilla's Archer ability.
d) self-explanatory.
I was previously limiting them to Mastery (+++) in weapons, but right now, the above disadvanatges are more than enough to justify the bonuses. The trick in general has been improving the base Fighter class, rather than nerfing the Kit.
@Demivrgvs: Not sure I agree with the armor disadvantage, simply because a lot of really good anti-magic armors are heavy stuff. Red Dragon Scale's massive fire resistance, for example.
If they could code it somehow they'd receive lesser benefits from potions, I think that could be a viable nerf. Not sure how easy that'd be to implement in Baldur's Gate, though.
I'd also say any ring/amulet/cloak with an activated ability should still be barred. What I mean by this is stuff like Ring of Energy, or the charm component on the Pixie Cloak, etc. If they coded it item by item rather than a flat "Wizard slayers can't use anything!" facet, I'd go with a fine-tooth comb on what I think they should and shouldn't be able to equip.
Limiting to simply leathers feels kind of arbitrary. All the famous wizard hunters in fantasy books tend to have super enchanted plate armors and shields, that I can think of.
@Demivrgvs: Not sure I agree with the armor disadvantage, simply because a lot of really good anti-magic armors are heavy stuff. Red Dragon Scale's massive fire resistance, for example.
@sandmanCCL In exchange they'll now be able to use magical equipment (cloaks, rings, amulets, etc.) to boost their resistances and immunities. It surely won't be less effective than before (e.g. Ring of Fire Resistance can easily make up for that Red Dragonplate Armor).
If they could code it somehow they'd receive lesser benefits from potions, I think that could be a viable nerf. Not sure how easy that'd be to implement in Baldur's Gate, though.
I don't like the idea that a potion can have a different effect depending on the imbiber's class. It doesn't make much sense imo.
I'd also say any ring/amulet/cloak with an activated ability should still be barred. What I mean by this is stuff like Ring of Energy, or the charm component on the Pixie Cloak, etc. If they coded it item by item rather than a flat "Wizard slayers can't use anything!" facet, I'd go with a fine-tooth comb on what I think they should and shouldn't be able to equip.
And what's your explanation for "can use magical weapon and armor but not that cloak or that ring"? My Wizard Slayer is not a completely dumb and superstitious character. If I wanted to create such character I would have done a Barbarian-like class, unable to use ANY magical item (no magical weapon too), and then I would have assigned it tons of innate abilities to make up for it. Drastical, but at least CONSISTENT. Barring certain items and not others is not consistent with any concept background imo.
Limiting to simply leathers feels kind of arbitrary. All the famous wizard hunters in fantasy books tend to have super enchanted plate armors and shields, that I can think of.
I don't have any heavy armored anti-mage hero in mind. Anyway, it's not arbitrary, it follows a concept: within Item Revisions equipping heavy armors causes you to move slightly slower, attack slower (only speed factor/initiative, not apr), and suffer DEX penalties; in exchange for superior AC and higher physical resistance (I've added the latter). A WS doesn't value neither AC nor physical resistance as much as speed and mobility (the formers are usless against mages), and KR's WS can use his abilities with bows too, making DEX a really valuable stat too . That's why limiting them to light armors makes sense for me.
The WS kit was a lazy work made by the original BG team, The NPC Kindred worked the concept a little better but an official fix in this kit can go even further. A Wizard Slayer doesn't need necessary to hate magic, he could hate or just pursuit mages, out of the danger that this kind of person represent.
This zeal could be even more specific, as pursuing only evil mages, powerful mages, mages that don't follow a deity, mages that follow a deity.
Or even the contrary, the WS zeal could be focused in magic itself and he would see mages as poor persons that fallen under magic influence and need to be observed and if need destroyed. More specific the zeal could focus in kinds of magic, as necromancy for example if the WS feel that necromancy is abohent cos it changes nature course, or even conjuration for example as take another creature from his home (homeplane) and force them to fight for you can be seen as tiranny.
What i mean with all this stuff is that a WS could easly have no problem with magical items, his zeal that made him a WS could come from a most specific reason (of course this would be limited to roleplay, otherwise a WS would become a vanilla class in need of kits, and i doubt that this gonna happen).
@kamuizin I completely agree with you. The extended background I've assiged to the kit tries to reflect what you say, and the Kit itself tries to allow for those different backgrounds you're talking about, and not just "me hate magic, magic sucks - but my magic sword is cool".
Regarding Kindred, I looked into it ages ago, and the concept behind it is exactly the one I was talking about in my last post (aka barbarian-like, no magic use at all), which btw is an existing PnP barbarian PrC/variant class (I can track it back if anyone is interested).
@Demivrgvs: Not sure I agree with the armor disadvantage, simply because a lot of really good anti-magic armors are heavy stuff. Red Dragon Scale's massive fire resistance, for example.
@sandmanCCL In exchange they'll now be able to use magical equipment (cloaks, rings, amulets, etc.) to boost their resistances and immunities. It surely won't be less effective than before (e.g. Ring of Fire Resistance can easily make up for that Red Dragonplate Armor).
If they could code it somehow they'd receive lesser benefits from potions, I think that could be a viable nerf. Not sure how easy that'd be to implement in Baldur's Gate, though.
I don't like the idea that a potion can have a different effect depending on the imbiber's class. It doesn't make much sense imo.
I'd also say any ring/amulet/cloak with an activated ability should still be barred. What I mean by this is stuff like Ring of Energy, or the charm component on the Pixie Cloak, etc. If they coded it item by item rather than a flat "Wizard slayers can't use anything!" facet, I'd go with a fine-tooth comb on what I think they should and shouldn't be able to equip.
And what's your explanation for "can use magical weapon and armor but not that cloak or that ring"? My Wizard Slayer is not a completely dumb and superstitious character. If I wanted to create such character I would have done a Barbarian-like class, unable to use ANY magical item (no magical weapon too), and then I would have assigned it tons of innate abilities to make up for it. Drastical, but at least CONSISTENT. Barring certain items and not others is not consistent with any concept background imo.
Limiting to simply leathers feels kind of arbitrary. All the famous wizard hunters in fantasy books tend to have super enchanted plate armors and shields, that I can think of.
I don't have any heavy armored anti-mage hero in mind. Anyway, it's not arbitrary, it follows a concept: within Item Revisions equipping heavy armors causes you to move slightly slower, attack slower (only speed factor/initiative, not apr), and suffer DEX penalties; in exchange for superior AC and higher physical resistance (I've added the latter). A WS doesn't value neither AC nor physical resistance as much as speed and mobility (the formers are usless against mages), and KR's WS can use his abilities with bows too, making DEX a really valuable stat too . That's why limiting them to light armors makes sense for me.
Thought process is if a potion is magical and a guy is resistant to magic, it would be less successful on him/her. That's why they straight up bar magical potions from being consumed by Wizard Slayers in the first place.
Thought process behind barring utilizing activated abilities on items: The inherent magic of the gear is what adds the extra AC and not something it bestows upon the user. A wizard slayer would be resistant to magic and therefore would struggle to trigger abilities. Example: Ring of protection projects some sort of armor-deflecting aura inherently, Ring of Energy requires Wizard Slayer to tap into the ring's power to have it shoot a beam of energy. He can't tap into it's power. Things that require an active effort to gain the powers of it wouldn't work on someone highly resistant to the influence of magic, I would think.
Does that make sense?
I would also argue a wizard slayer wouldn't need dexterity from a design concept. Obviously he would were he an archer, which is what they would theoretically be best at if their chance to apply spell failure on hit was coded properly into BG2 unmodded. Wizards simply hurl bolts of lightning and arcane missiles with unerring accuracy. Being able to dodge out of the way wouldn't really help. Equipping things that allow them to combat mages or having inherent magic resist like they do would matter significantly more. As for the characters I'm thinking, I'm going to like Greek and ancient fables. The guys who beat dragons and wizards and all that usually have some sort of shield that protects them from magic, and tends to be in typical warrior-like gear for whatever period.
Kindred has some funny banters, you can force talk him and tell that his weapon is magical, he will get angered and says that his weapon only destroy magic, it's not magic, if you say that only magic can do what his weapon do he will start to enfuriate himself, if you press the issue if i'm not wrong he attacks you, but i don't remember well, too much time since i played the game.
WS could have more abilities also, as a dispel magic ability (as the inquisitor kit) x times per day/each x levels, they could use one time per day/x levels that spell striking wand ability (the wand from ToB that use a breach and a pierce magic at the same time), every weapon in the WS hand (melle only) could dispel on hit (same as Carsomyr but the ability would come from the character), the WS hit could have a x% chance of deaf or silence the enemy, deaf is a semi-useful spell not much used because of the low level and because silence is better (justified in roleplay terms by an aura, poison in the weapon, bells or other instruments added to the sword, noises made by the WS in the course of the fight always attempting to disrupt a wizards spell...well many possibilities here).
As an penality, if the WS drink any kind of potion besides healing potions he could lost some/all the abilities above for 8 hours for example.
Some items in the game could behave better in the hand of a wizard slayer, as Bala's axe for example, ring of spell turning and maybe other items (some even created in the BG EE or in any mod that apply those ideas).
@sandmanCCL No. Activating a item's ability has nothing to do with the user's magic resistance. Why should an ability to resist magic prevent from activating or using a magical item? It's not like such item is trying to harm the user. It would make slightly more sense if the WS used another concept, such as immunity to spell lvls (aka both friendly and harmful), but then again, my point is that the current concept makes absolutely no sense.
There are only 2 possible ways to make a coherent concept imo: 1) make a character trained to fight spellcasters, even using magic itself if useful for his goal 2) make a character who hates magic (add background reasons), and would never touch any magic item
Then you have to make a critical decision: a) the kit is a pure martial class, with no spell-like abilities b) the kit has access to innate magical-like or supernatural abilities
aVENGER's followed more or less 1) + b), by loosing the item restrictions and letting WS use any magical item which is strictly useful to fight mages (e.g. with magic resistance bonuses or similar effects). My WS is very similar but I'm following more strictly both 1) and a).
The Kindred NPC mentioned by kamuizin follows 2) + b). This is a very interesting solution (a flawed one imo but interesting and unique), though more suited to an NPC imo than charname. Btw, @kamuizin I don't like the idea of giving to such character abilities such as dispel, or silence. Those are fine for a magic-user such as the Inquisitor, but isn't Kindred supposed to hate magic in all its forms?
It's a question of option, you don't need to use all the suggestion (or any in fact), besides, the source of a dispel magic or deaf/silence effect doesn't need to be magical. In roleplay terms if you put many minor bells in your sword and attack a wizard, the huge amount of sound the sword will do at each strike can simulate the effect of a deaf spell, it's an roleplay example that can exist on the kit description for example.
The hate of the WS can be the source of the will power that nulify spells on hit or the WS concentration and focus in a single mage/point could justify the piercing shield wand spell alike ability.
It's up to be worked, BG doesn't work much the concept of abilities besides some small spell alike skills.
I haven't played a WS, but in their defense, it seems to me that mage fights invariably involve numerous spell contingencies going off, raising defenses long enough that they can cast something nasty while the party mage works on Breach and everyone else does fuck-all.
If a dual-wielding WS (assuming the offhand weapon also applies the effect; I do not know) has had a couple of rounds with the magic user, the party is safe.
And getting something like Miscast Magic to land is basically unheard of in SOA because of the silly way saving throws work in 2nd Edition.
@sandmanCCL No. Activating a item's ability has nothing to do with the user's magic resistance. Why should an ability to resist magic prevent from activating or using a magical item? It's not like such item is trying to harm the user. It would make slightly more sense if the WS used another concept, such as immunity to spell lvls (aka both friendly and harmful), but then again, my point is that the current concept makes absolutely no sense.
That's your opinion. I think it's a great concept. Maybe I'm not expressing it clearly enough, or perhaps we just don't see eye to eye. Saying it makes "absolutely" no sense is your opinion.
I gotta say, personally I think sandmanCCL's concept of the Wizard Slayer makes a lot more sense than Demivrgvs's. The no armor restriction seems completely random, and the justification (that they need speed) is pretty hard to swallow because it's not actually true in game terms. If it were, they would just choose not to wear armor, rather than making it a kit requirement..
Activating a item's ability has nothing to do with the user's magic resistance. Why should an ability to resist magic prevent from activating or using a magical item? It's not like such item is trying to harm the user. It would make slightly more sense if the WS used another concept, such as immunity to spell lvls (aka both friendly and harmful), but then again, my point is that the current concept makes absolutely no sense.
That's your opinion. I think it's a great concept. Maybe I'm not expressing it clearly enough, or perhaps we just don't see eye to eye. Saying it makes "absolutely" no sense is your opinion.
@sandmanCCL the "absolutely no sense" part wasn't referred to your idea, but to the original class concept, which doesn't give any reason to understand why the WS accept using magical weapons and armors, but not a magical cloak. Do you see any sense in that?
I gotta say, personally I think sandmanCCL's concept of the Wizard Slayer makes a lot more sense than Demivrgvs's. The no armor restriction seems completely random, and the justification (that they need speed) is pretty hard to swallow because it's not actually true in game terms.
@Kaxon Well, my Kit can be used as a stand-alone mod but is intended to be used with Item Revisions, where heavy armors do affect movement and attack speed. That's why it's not "completely random" as you say.
If it were, they would just choose not to wear armor, rather than making it a kit requirement.
With this logic a Kensai should be able to wear heavy armors (no restriction) and he would "just choose not to wear armor". What you say makes sense, but this kind of restrictions doesn't need to be seen as "the character cannot wear heavy armor because he really can't", but as "he would never do it because of his features". You can consider it a sort of "enforced roleplaying" on players, which works fine imo, especially considering too many players are more concerned about power-gaming, min-maxing and exploits than roleplaying their characters.
Why the hell a barbarian should not be able to wear heavy armor? His muscles are too big? He cannot because the class concept is a slightly less armored but faster warrior. Similarly, my WS wear only light armors not because heavier ones don't fit his body, but because unlike medium or heavy armors they don't cause any encumberance, while still offering decent protection (more than a pair of bracers).
If you're taking suggestions for reasonable restrictions to the kit, how about this: WS is only allowed to spend points in the "sword & shield" fighting style?
For me, it would make sense from a role-play standpoint that a WS uses a shield when approaching a mage - sort of hiding behind a (magical) shield, when facing direct spells. This could be done instead of some other restrictions, or in addition to them. Also, in order to further stimulate the use of shields, small saving throw bonuses can be applied to a WS, whenever he/she is wearing a shield. Maybe just for save vs. spells.
A greater advantage could be that by equipping a shield, a WS becomes immune to some specific spells or spell effects, similar to a berserker in rage (but less, e.g. only for hold person and such). However, such immunities can be considered overpowered. Anyways, just wanted to share my thoughts on the matter.
@Alderic err... why sword and shield, what has this to do with fight against magic or mages? I think exactly the contraty, as they focus in fight magic, why would a WS need a shield for? not that they can't use one but... There's much more sense in an 2 handed weapons WS, or a small speed factor weapon than a shield. You have to kill fast a mage preferable, so hit harder or hit faster.
@kamuizin As for the shield being a physical combat item, not a spell fighting item, I both agree and disagree with you. I reckon that when you fight mages, you'll need protection. The shield SYMBOLIZES protection for warriors, who do not have the protection spells of clerics and mages. It just looks like an appropriate WS fighting style, especially if you consider the in-game graphics of direct spells, which resemble missile projections.
Also, although you are technically correct that the shield is a physical combat-oriented item, many magical shields found in the game grant exclusive powers for fighting against magic (Shield of Balduran, anyone?). The idea is, that a WS would use even normal shields in a different way from a normal fighter (this is why I would suggest providing some small incentive bonuses like improved save vs spells).
As for using two-handed weapons or dual-wielding - after all it wouldn't be completely forbidden for a WS, simply less effective than with other fighter classes. A WS is a specialized kit, there should be some trade-off for the extra powers granted in terms of protection from spells. Also, the restriction will mean, that a WS, while being very useful in terms of mage fights and general protection, is not likely to become as great damage dealer as are the berserker and kensai. With two kits that already hit hard and/or fast, why not differentiate the third figther kit a bit?
Sorry @Alderic but i don't buy it, serious no offense. You're losing yourself in the symbol idea.
Magic is a form of energy, you don't need a square object between you and a hostile energy to defend yourself, the effects of the shield of balduran could come from any other item, cloak of reflection and cloak of mirroring are excelent examples for it.
As to say that two handed and dual wielding is less effective with WSs, do you have anything to backup it? Cos logic is on my side in this matter as an aesthetic issue related only to a game kit variation can't define the official contend of a game. The Cavalier Paladin kit anyway already is a sword n' shield specific class from lore view.
Comments
Miscast magic allows a save, true. But cumulative spell failure of the wizard slayer also requires you hit the target, so it's not like that ability automatically works either. Silencing a caster also completely blocks spells if I'm not mistaken, and clerics and mages can do this too. My point here is that there are many ways to do what the wizard slayer does.
I believe the character is viable, just like you do. But I don't think it's unstoppable. I think it badly needs to be changed. Wizard Slayer is one of the top kits ppl want improved. Right up there with Shapeshifter and Beastmaster. All *can* be good, but making them good shouldn't be so hard.
Any argument with what a guy can do at level 40 is kind of irrelevant if you ask me.
But logic doesn't appear to be an issue in this discussion so... ok @Gloomfrost i see the light now!!!
@SandmanCCL I can't remember Anomen having improved whirlwind haha that is broken, maybe early pre-patch? Greater Deathblow or Critical Strike? Deathblow just kills level 12 or lower enemies. Staff of the Ram is fantastic but I'd be more prone to TWF + Improved Haste + Assassination (apparently you're only meant to get on use of it though but I've always had more). Thats my old trick, 8 attacks x5 (x7 for assassin). It could be only at really high XP, my duals have only ever had HLAs relevant to their second class. Fighter/Assassin or Fighter/Swashbuckler both in my mind are Glglglglglglg
Staff of the Ram + invisible Smite would be great fun. Critical hit blowback then switch to a ranged weapon. I've heard people aren't that keen on Smite, I've always enjoyed it. Used it alot with ranged characters. Slims out the ememy ranks.
I very well might. I actually want to run a full evil campaign for once and I'm in a rut trying to decide which classes to run with it. I'll post a topic in a moment and you can give me your ideas there
There are far too many aspects of the game Wizard Slayers fail at.
-They make crappy tanks because they can't utilize rings/cloaks/amulets/gloves that further increase AC.
-A plain fighter is more dangerous in melee as he can increase Thac0 and damage through gear. He can also have good enough magic resistance to negate the nastier things mages can throw at you by way of potion and scroll and friendly buffs.
-Utilizing potions beyond healing ones is paramount to success.
-Wizard Slayers would be good ARCHERS if they worked properly but without mods, wizard slayer miscast chance is not applied on ranged damage.
It's just a stupid kit. Wizard slayers don't even really help all that much against wizards because they can't get through wizard defenses. The most important guy in your fights against mages is another mage casting buff-stripping abilities like Breach and the like. After you get rid of stoneskins and mantles, a regular fighter/paladin/barbarian/ranger can pretty much one-shot a mage anyway.
It's simply pointless. It fails at the things warriors are best at (raw right-click damage) for negligible magic resist which ends up being pointless if you've got the sense to bring along some potions for situations you encounter strong magic, and applies a chance to miscast magic on hit but then again you can utilize level 5 druid spell slots to do the same thing. Pointless, pointless, pointless.
If they removed the stupid penalty that doesn't let them equip anything beyond a helmet and armor, they'd be good. Just have to think of a different creative penalty instead, because that one makes them suck.
It becomes slightly better against those boss-like characters who can take 10 hits and survive, such as dragons (not SCS dragons though - they'd just lower WS magic resistance in a second), I give you that, but in those battles both a Barbarian and a Berserker would still performs 100 times better because of incredibly higher survivability (e.g. more hp, tons of resistnces and immunities, etc.), higher offensive potential and much better equipment (which is a real game-changing factor considering how ridiculously powerful are items within BG2). Unstoppable?!? LOL
In melee any other fighter class would beat him, and intelligent casters (e.g. SCS ones) can easily handle them too by simply casting a 5th lvl spell and chosing the right protections. Just so you know, a lich under PfMW is COMPLETELY IMMUNE to a WS for 4 rounds.
Short story: the real Wizard Slayer within BG is the INQUISITOR. Keldorn is the unstoppable character against mages, even more with vanilla's overpowered Carsomyr.
P.S When confronting characters don't use the 40th level to compare them, it makes no sense. You should confront them in the whole progress. A L40 WS may have 100% mr, but for 2/3 of the game your WS won't have more than 10-20%. @Lemernis aVENGER did a good job, and his kit is 100 times better than vanilla's one. My own KR's version will be kinda similar in certain aspects, but I think I'll make it much more cool.
I look forward to your mod!
This occurred to me in another thread touching on the kit, but I think now that the main tweak I would like to see to this kit... or maybe this could simply be an option via mod component... is to allow them to use divinely enchanted armor and weapons.
Because even in Amn, for example, where there is such deep cultural and governmental prejudice and hostility towards arcane wizardry, religion still exists everywhere, and priests are still able to cast divine magic without anyone getting upset. I suppose if the magic comes from a god its seen as okay... it's never really spelled out even in Lands of Intrigue, but I think that's a reasonable conclusion.
This would offer an opportunity to add some cool items, i.e., divinely enchanted stuff.
Regarding your suggestion: it makes sense, but KR's WS won't have the need for it because my current version can use magic items as much as he/she wishes.
The current drawbacks of my suggested Wizard Slayer are:
a) Cannot wear medium or heavy armors, nor use large or medium shields.
b) Cannot use neither Offensive Stance nor Defensive Stance.
c) Cannot use Called Shot.
d) Cannot dual to mage classes.
a) Wizard Slayers hunt mages, and against them they need to be as fast as possible, they don't encumber themselves. Also note that KR's Wizard Slayer will make a great anti-mage archer now, as all his abilities now work with ranged weapons as well.
b) and c) are new feats available to KR's True Fighters. The formers are PnP Power Attack and Combat Expertise respectively, while c) is a refined version of vanilla's Archer ability.
d) self-explanatory.
I was previously limiting them to Mastery (+++) in weapons, but right now, the above disadvanatges are more than enough to justify the bonuses. The trick in general has been improving the base Fighter class, rather than nerfing the Kit.
If they could code it somehow they'd receive lesser benefits from potions, I think that could be a viable nerf. Not sure how easy that'd be to implement in Baldur's Gate, though.
I'd also say any ring/amulet/cloak with an activated ability should still be barred. What I mean by this is stuff like Ring of Energy, or the charm component on the Pixie Cloak, etc. If they coded it item by item rather than a flat "Wizard slayers can't use anything!" facet, I'd go with a fine-tooth comb on what I think they should and shouldn't be able to equip.
Limiting to simply leathers feels kind of arbitrary. All the famous wizard hunters in fantasy books tend to have super enchanted plate armors and shields, that I can think of.
This zeal could be even more specific, as pursuing only evil mages, powerful mages, mages that don't follow a deity, mages that follow a deity.
Or even the contrary, the WS zeal could be focused in magic itself and he would see mages as poor persons that fallen under magic influence and need to be observed and if need destroyed. More specific the zeal could focus in kinds of magic, as necromancy for example if the WS feel that necromancy is abohent cos it changes nature course, or even conjuration for example as take another creature from his home (homeplane) and force them to fight for you can be seen as tiranny.
What i mean with all this stuff is that a WS could easly have no problem with magical items, his zeal that made him a WS could come from a most specific reason (of course this would be limited to roleplay, otherwise a WS would become a vanilla class in need of kits, and i doubt that this gonna happen).
Regarding Kindred, I looked into it ages ago, and the concept behind it is exactly the one I was talking about in my last post (aka barbarian-like, no magic use at all), which btw is an existing PnP barbarian PrC/variant class (I can track it back if anyone is interested).
Thought process behind barring utilizing activated abilities on items: The inherent magic of the gear is what adds the extra AC and not something it bestows upon the user. A wizard slayer would be resistant to magic and therefore would struggle to trigger abilities. Example: Ring of protection projects some sort of armor-deflecting aura inherently, Ring of Energy requires Wizard Slayer to tap into the ring's power to have it shoot a beam of energy. He can't tap into it's power. Things that require an active effort to gain the powers of it wouldn't work on someone highly resistant to the influence of magic, I would think.
Does that make sense?
I would also argue a wizard slayer wouldn't need dexterity from a design concept. Obviously he would were he an archer, which is what they would theoretically be best at if their chance to apply spell failure on hit was coded properly into BG2 unmodded. Wizards simply hurl bolts of lightning and arcane missiles with unerring accuracy. Being able to dodge out of the way wouldn't really help. Equipping things that allow them to combat mages or having inherent magic resist like they do would matter significantly more. As for the characters I'm thinking, I'm going to like Greek and ancient fables. The guys who beat dragons and wizards and all that usually have some sort of shield that protects them from magic, and tends to be in typical warrior-like gear for whatever period.
WS could have more abilities also, as a dispel magic ability (as the inquisitor kit) x times per day/each x levels, they could use one time per day/x levels that spell striking wand ability (the wand from ToB that use a breach and a pierce magic at the same time), every weapon in the WS hand (melle only) could dispel on hit (same as Carsomyr but the ability would come from the character), the WS hit could have a x% chance of deaf or silence the enemy, deaf is a semi-useful spell not much used because of the low level and because silence is better (justified in roleplay terms by an aura, poison in the weapon, bells or other instruments added to the sword, noises made by the WS in the course of the fight always attempting to disrupt a wizards spell...well many possibilities here).
As an penality, if the WS drink any kind of potion besides healing potions he could lost some/all the abilities above for 8 hours for example.
Some items in the game could behave better in the hand of a wizard slayer, as Bala's axe for example, ring of spell turning and maybe other items (some even created in the BG EE or in any mod that apply those ideas).
There are only 2 possible ways to make a coherent concept imo:
1) make a character trained to fight spellcasters, even using magic itself if useful for his goal
2) make a character who hates magic (add background reasons), and would never touch any magic item
Then you have to make a critical decision:
a) the kit is a pure martial class, with no spell-like abilities
b) the kit has access to innate magical-like or supernatural abilities
aVENGER's followed more or less 1) + b), by loosing the item restrictions and letting WS use any magical item which is strictly useful to fight mages (e.g. with magic resistance bonuses or similar effects). My WS is very similar but I'm following more strictly both 1) and a).
The Kindred NPC mentioned by kamuizin follows 2) + b). This is a very interesting solution (a flawed one imo but interesting and unique), though more suited to an NPC imo than charname. Btw, @kamuizin I don't like the idea of giving to such character abilities such as dispel, or silence. Those are fine for a magic-user such as the Inquisitor, but isn't Kindred supposed to hate magic in all its forms?
The hate of the WS can be the source of the will power that nulify spells on hit or the WS concentration and focus in a single mage/point could justify the piercing shield wand spell alike ability.
It's up to be worked, BG doesn't work much the concept of abilities besides some small spell alike skills.
If a dual-wielding WS (assuming the offhand weapon also applies the effect; I do not know) has had a couple of rounds with the magic user, the party is safe.
And getting something like Miscast Magic to land is basically unheard of in SOA because of the silly way saving throws work in 2nd Edition.
Why the hell a barbarian should not be able to wear heavy armor? His muscles are too big? He cannot because the class concept is a slightly less armored but faster warrior. Similarly, my WS wear only light armors not because heavier ones don't fit his body, but because unlike medium or heavy armors they don't cause any encumberance, while still offering decent protection (more than a pair of bracers).
For me, it would make sense from a role-play standpoint that a WS uses a shield when approaching a mage - sort of hiding behind a (magical) shield, when facing direct spells. This could be done instead of some other restrictions, or in addition to them. Also, in order to further stimulate the use of shields, small saving throw bonuses can be applied to a WS, whenever he/she is wearing a shield. Maybe just for save vs. spells.
A greater advantage could be that by equipping a shield, a WS becomes immune to some specific spells or spell effects, similar to a berserker in rage (but less, e.g. only for hold person and such). However, such immunities can be considered overpowered. Anyways, just wanted to share my thoughts on the matter.
Also, although you are technically correct that the shield is a physical combat-oriented item, many magical shields found in the game grant exclusive powers for fighting against magic (Shield of Balduran, anyone?). The idea is, that a WS would use even normal shields in a different way from a normal fighter (this is why I would suggest providing some small incentive bonuses like improved save vs spells).
As for using two-handed weapons or dual-wielding - after all it wouldn't be completely forbidden for a WS, simply less effective than with other fighter classes. A WS is a specialized kit, there should be some trade-off for the extra powers granted in terms of protection from spells. Also, the restriction will mean, that a WS, while being very useful in terms of mage fights and general protection, is not likely to become as great damage dealer as are the berserker and kensai. With two kits that already hit hard and/or fast, why not differentiate the third figther kit a bit?
Magic is a form of energy, you don't need a square object between you and a hostile energy to defend yourself, the effects of the shield of balduran could come from any other item, cloak of reflection and cloak of mirroring are excelent examples for it.
As to say that two handed and dual wielding is less effective with WSs, do you have anything to backup it? Cos logic is on my side in this matter as an aesthetic issue related only to a game kit variation can't define the official contend of a game. The Cavalier Paladin kit anyway already is a sword n' shield specific class from lore view.