@kamuizin well, (as I pointed out before) it was just a suggestion. I wanted to suggest something that would differentiate the kit from the other two. I never claimed it is strongly supported by lore or that I explicitly demand it is implemented as official content. A number of people in this forum agree, that the kit should be re-balanced, I just wanted to add some thoughts on the matter.
Of course, if you don't like my suggestion - don't take it. I never saw this as an argument to begin with. However, mind that I wouldn't go as far as you, saying that logic is on someone's side on a matter such as this. And neither is aesthetics. We just have different perceptions of the WS kit.
I finished the game two weeks ago playing as wizard slayer. Mods included unfinished bussiness, BP Ascension, difficulty hardcore. It was not bad and I had no problems including the Ascension final battle. Unfortunately I am not completely sure when the 10% spell failure applies and when not (i.e. which protection spells it penetrates and which not). Now I think it penetrates everything except PfMW and Mantles. Also if you managed to hit a wizard (or monster) in a fight and then he renew his magic protections (contingency or recast) he is still influenced by the previously inflicted spell failure chance and thus he is much less dangerous.
In the end of ToB+BP Ascension my wizard slayer (lvl 33) had around 100% magic resistance, which was also extremely handy (WS native resistance, amulet of seldarine, hell trials, Lum´s machine, one of the Pocket plane challenges). When I needed to boost his magic resistance at lower levels I used shield of damned and sword of balduran, or sword of balduran in the off-hand.
Also wizards slayers can use the amulet of Seldarine and all boots, so you are missing only rings and cloaks, which you can give to other party members so not a real problem.
My party was me (human wizard slayer), Jaheira, Minsc, Imoen, Aerie and Sarevok.
It seems more than a little logically inconsistent that a class that hates wizards nevertheless uses enchanted armor and weapons, and magical jewelry other than rings and cloaks! I mean, I guess it could be rationalized that it's okay to use those things in the service of destroying wizards... Although it would make much more sense to me if they were restricted to wearing magical items that were enchanted by a priest only in the crafting process. But anyway, I suppose if we go down that road there's a lot in 2nd ed. AD&D that doesn't make logical sense.
In any case, I'm sold. This sounds like a fun and interesting kit to me. I like the fact that it has some inherent limitations and weaknesses. The challenge is then to figure out how to get the most out of it.
I'm going to try a custom party BG2 game using
Wizard Slayer (CHARNAME) Inquisitor Berserker Barbarian Assassin Cleric of Talos
and seeing what the game is like fighting all those high level magic-users without any arcane magic at my disposal.
@Lemernis I think there should be no serious problems even without any arcane magic. When I turned on greater whirlwind on my four warriors they just cut everything into pieces in few moments (combined with boots of speed on all four warriors, they also moved insanely fast from one enemy to another). Wand of reversal and wands of ?striking? can be used to dispel spell protections, assassin can use detect illusion to dispel any illusion spells without worrying about spell imunity: divination.
My wizard slayer was also able to use rod of ressurection and rod (or wand?) of reversal (ruby ray).
I think that for Throne of Bhaal, a fighter/thief multiclass could be better than assassin - both fighter and thief HLAs, weapon specialization and more attacks per round (I would like to see the effect of an improve-hasted dual-wielding fighter/thief using the assassination HLA).
Also wizards slayers can use the amulet of Seldarine and all boots, so you are missing only rings and cloaks, which you can give to other party members so not a real problem.
And belts and gloves, the two most important slots for improving your character's offensive prowess via gear.
And you can't use non-healing potions. I know a lot of people ignore them but I am a consumables madman. I'm chugging potions of defense/potions of invulnerability allllllll the time on my fighters.
SandmanCCL Yes, I somehow forgot belts and gloves, my mistake.
In my game it just meant that I gave the best stuff in this cathegory to my companions. I did not need strenght belts so much on my main character, because I had a decent strenght score (20 - tome from BG1, and Lum). I could increase it to 22 by using the +5 ToB longsword or to 25 from Crom Frayer (but I gave Crom to Minsc's off hand).
I suppose that's true. Other than Keldorn or Anomen, you could easily use the gauntlets that grant extra thac0 and damage to any of the other fighter-type guys, and your PC doesn't really need any of the strength belts.
I may have to give Wizard Slayer a try. The biggest reason I never have is more because mages are so easy to murder already. I suppose he'd be super handy against a lot of the annoying cleric-heavy encounters in the game, though.
And no to SCS. I dislike mods that alter content as a general rule.
You dislike 99% of mods then. Anyway, a light installation of SCS does not alter anything, simply improves the AI. No one forces you to install the components which more heavily alters creatures and/or abilities.
I do suggest you to give it a try. Vanilla's AI (mages in particular) is so stupid that talking about "effectiveness" of a classs based on it is pretty much pointless.
It affects special abilities but not divine casting? Awful.
And no to SCS. I dislike mods that alter content as a general rule.
Sandman! I implore you, lol! You must try SCS and SCSII. You'll never go back. The AI changes are really well implemented. You're already a tactical passmaster of the game. I think you'll enjoy the new challenges if you give it a go.
If BG:EE wasn't coming out so soon, I might. I'm just not a fan of altering content. The reason I like BGtutu over BG1 is simply because the BG2 engine is vastly improved. Only other mods I've ever installed are simply fixpacks to restore things not implemented correctly.
Extra NPCs, alterations to AI, changes to enemies... It ruins the experience for me. My brother has been trying to get me to try out a bunch of mods for Skyrim since that came out and I just don't like it! Maybe it's not totally rational.
At what point does the mod change the intended vision of the artists who created it? It's a hard question to answer and I'm willing to bet a lot of people come to different conclusions. Maybe I'd get around to modding a game if I wasn't already playing like 7 other games at the same time. I admit, I am woefully lazy and have epic gamer ADHD.
We really have to get Beamdog to pay attention to this one. I mean honestly, it's the kit people are most unhappy with. You expect something awesome from the title and you just don't get it. This would be an easy request to answer....and an important one. Hopefully they do something.
Agreed, this kit is even dangeours, a new BG player that start his experience with a Wizard Slayer can become frustated enough to define his first experience with BG as an "weak game", and that's not the image we wish to pass.
It is a little bit of a weak kit, but it would take very little improvement for it to render a standard fighter completely obsolete, and that is not what kits are suppose to do.
You know honestly, I think a good buff to Wizard Slayer would be to make his Saving Throws Vs. Spells better. It makes sense, and Fighters were never the best in that area ... it would make them a lot more interesting.
You know honestly, I think a good buff to Wizard Slayer would be to make his Saving Throws Vs. Spells better. It makes sense, and Fighters were never the best in that area ... it would make them a lot more interesting.
I came to the same conclusion back then, and my proposed WS will start with a +2 bonus to saves vs. spell at 1st lvl.
@Quartz just to enforce ^^ cos that's very important, to avoid a character level 1 with 5 in all his saves, it's not a bonus to saving trows but to spells savings only.
It would be the diference among other classes with high Mres and a wizard slayer.
10 hits resulting in the mage's casting failure... I know that using Greater Whirlwind that'll happen pretty fast. With Improved Haste, all the faster.
But that's high level stuff. In BG:EE the challenge will be how to get in those attacks in time to kill the wizard before he kills me. I guess I have to decide just how low-magic-use I can really go with the concept I have for a WS led party...
I was interested in rolling WS and read mostly bad reviews and some good ones. I didn't care and started my WS at lvl 1 in BG1tutu. Passed BG1 and imported to BG2 and finished it and imported to ToB. I'm at the end of chapter 9 out of 10 chapters and plowing through.
I love my WS! He is an half-orc with 5 proficencies in longswords and 3 in dual wielding. He is a beast! He has the highest dps in my party consistently even with the missing items. I feel overpowered. No joke.
I'm thinking those that knock WS haven't even tried rolling one.
P.S. One idea for a WS is going ranged with proficiencies in bows and adding the debuff from afar.
You guys act like wizard's aren't already free kills for fighters in 2nd edition rules, the real problem with WS is that it should never have existed in the first place.
Comments
Of course, if you don't like my suggestion - don't take it. I never saw this as an argument to begin with. However, mind that I wouldn't go as far as you, saying that logic is on someone's side on a matter such as this. And neither is aesthetics. We just have different perceptions of the WS kit.
Unfortunately I am not completely sure when the 10% spell failure applies and when not (i.e. which protection spells it penetrates and which not). Now I think it penetrates everything except PfMW and Mantles. Also if you managed to hit a wizard (or monster) in a fight and then he renew his magic protections (contingency or recast) he is still influenced by the previously inflicted spell failure chance and thus he is much less dangerous.
In the end of ToB+BP Ascension my wizard slayer (lvl 33) had around 100% magic resistance, which was also extremely handy (WS native resistance, amulet of seldarine, hell trials, Lum´s machine, one of the Pocket plane challenges). When I needed to boost his magic resistance at lower levels I used shield of damned and sword of balduran, or sword of balduran in the off-hand.
Also wizards slayers can use the amulet of Seldarine and all boots, so you are missing only rings and cloaks, which you can give to other party members so not a real problem.
My party was me (human wizard slayer), Jaheira, Minsc, Imoen, Aerie and Sarevok.
In any case, I'm sold. This sounds like a fun and interesting kit to me. I like the fact that it has some inherent limitations and weaknesses. The challenge is then to figure out how to get the most out of it.
I'm going to try a custom party BG2 game using
Wizard Slayer (CHARNAME)
Inquisitor
Berserker
Barbarian
Assassin
Cleric of Talos
and seeing what the game is like fighting all those high level magic-users without any arcane magic at my disposal.
I think there should be no serious problems even without any arcane magic. When I turned on greater whirlwind on my four warriors they just cut everything into pieces in few moments (combined with boots of speed on all four warriors, they also moved insanely fast from one enemy to another). Wand of reversal and wands of ?striking? can be used to dispel spell protections, assassin can use detect illusion to dispel any illusion spells without worrying about spell imunity: divination.
My wizard slayer was also able to use rod of ressurection and rod (or wand?) of reversal (ruby ray).
I think that for Throne of Bhaal, a fighter/thief multiclass could be better than assassin - both fighter and thief HLAs, weapon specialization and more attacks per round (I would like to see the effect of an improve-hasted dual-wielding fighter/thief using the assassination HLA).
And you can't use non-healing potions. I know a lot of people ignore them but I am a consumables madman. I'm chugging potions of defense/potions of invulnerability allllllll the time on my fighters.
Yes, I somehow forgot belts and gloves, my mistake.
In my game it just meant that I gave the best stuff in this cathegory to my companions. I did not need strenght belts so much on my main character, because I had a decent strenght score (20 - tome from BG1, and Lum). I could increase it to 22 by using the +5 ToB longsword or to 25 from Crom Frayer (but I gave Crom to Minsc's off hand).
I may have to give Wizard Slayer a try. The biggest reason I never have is more because mages are so easy to murder already. I suppose he'd be super handy against a lot of the annoying cleric-heavy encounters in the game, though.
Regarding mages being so easy to murder, have you tried playing with SCS?
And no to SCS. I dislike mods that alter content as a general rule.
I do suggest you to give it a try. Vanilla's AI (mages in particular) is so stupid that talking about "effectiveness" of a classs based on it is pretty much pointless.
Extra NPCs, alterations to AI, changes to enemies... It ruins the experience for me. My brother has been trying to get me to try out a bunch of mods for Skyrim since that came out and I just don't like it! Maybe it's not totally rational.
At what point does the mod change the intended vision of the artists who created it? It's a hard question to answer and I'm willing to bet a lot of people come to different conclusions. Maybe I'd get around to modding a game if I wasn't already playing like 7 other games at the same time. I admit, I am woefully lazy and have epic gamer ADHD.
We really have to get Beamdog to pay attention to this one. I mean honestly, it's the kit people are most unhappy with. You expect something awesome from the title and you just don't get it. This would be an easy request to answer....and an important one. Hopefully they do something.
See:
It would be the diference among other classes with high Mres and a wizard slayer.
But that's high level stuff. In BG:EE the challenge will be how to get in those attacks in time to kill the wizard before he kills me. I guess I have to decide just how low-magic-use I can really go with the concept I have for a WS led party...
I love my WS! He is an half-orc with 5 proficencies in longswords and 3 in dual wielding. He is a beast! He has the highest dps in my party consistently even with the missing items. I feel overpowered. No joke.
I'm thinking those that knock WS haven't even tried rolling one.
P.S. One idea for a WS is going ranged with proficiencies in bows and adding the debuff from afar.
This would make them much more viable. Even more so than increasing their magic resistance progression.
2e D&D had a power scale of
1. Cleric
2. Fighter
3. ....
4. ....
5. ....
6. Wizard
7. ....
8. ....
9. ....
10. Thief