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What's your opinion on social justice warfare in games?

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  • abentwookieabentwookie Member Posts: 91
    Avlan said:


    She made money off the back of the whole Gamergate beginning by doing this, yes. Only wanted 6,000 for her kickstarter, yet her "Feminist Frequency" quadrupled over the wake of gamergate. And you don't see anything wrong with this? She wasn't even a fan of gaming until she started making the videos. She threw together a bunch of clips, called it a day, and made money off it. She may not be a great con-artist, but she is one nonetheless. I would say less of a con-artist, and more of a fraud.

    Logic fail.... error.... error..... :o You just made a whole bunch of claims that can't be proven but before I get to those, i'll address your first comment. No, I don't see anything wrong with asking for $6,000 and then actually getting more donations than she asked for.... Did she actually ASK for more than that? No, she did not. So where exactly is the problem? lol Now on to the problems with your claims...

    #1. You claim she wasn't a fan of gaming before she started making videos, even though she admitted that she was a gamer as a child, which refutes your comment entirely. She had been a gamer before... Yes, she did leave gaming as she grew up and never really was involved in it after that but it doesn't change the fact that she had been a gamer. Therefore your claim is wrong. Now if I wanted to I could point out that a lot of the big names supported by GamerGate have never claimed anything about being gamers either, such as thunderf00t, Christine Summers, etc... Does that mean they are frauds for profiting from the controversy? No, actually, they are not and neither is Sarkeesian. My next point is WHY they are not frauds for that reason...

    #2. You don't have to be a gamer to discuss this issue. Period. Do you have to be a director or actor to discuss movies? Do you have to be a professional athlete to discuss professional sports? Of course not. That is complete and utter nonsense. Sarkeesian's channel has always been about gender issues in entertainment media. Keyword being MEDIA. Games are a form of media.

    #2. No, she did not just throw together a bunch of clips. She provided clips of games during her discussion about the issues. Throwing together just a bunch of clips is called a montage.

    #3. Nothing you said actually proves she is a con-artist. You made a false conclusion based on a faulty premise.
    Avlan said:


    That is because you already showed proof of the gamergate side in your post here(I am agreeing with you on this, not sure why you brought it up):

    But why were you not the one to bring it up since you brought up Sarkeesian? Why did you only target one side?
    Avlan said:


    But, they are exploiting the LGBT community. Not everyone in the LGBT community agrees on the same thing, that is just making assumptions. I am quite sure the Log Cabin Republicans(A Conservative LGBT advocacy group) would not share the same vision as their Democrat opposites.

    Wait, so unless every single member of a group agrees about an issue regarding equal treatment and representation, then we shouldn't advocate for it? In that case, women, black people and LGBT wouldn't even have many rights at all because there have always been members of each group that oppose their rights. People like Ann Coulter don't think women should be allowed to vote so I guess we should stop that right? That's ridiculous reasoning.

    No advocating for someone's rights is not using them. This is just a cheap tactic used by the opposition in almost every area now, just like how republicans stomp over the equality of black people when they gutted the voting rights act while saying, "No, its the other side that is just using the black community! We're the ones who really care about you! Now excuse me while we create some voter ID laws that disproportionately affect your specific group."
    Avlan said:


    Also, let me clear something up for a lot of people. Saying something racist, whether or not you have a black friend is still racist.

    Hey, we finally agree on something.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511

    @Skatan I never claimed to be neutral.

    Do you not even pay attention to what you say on here? You claimed you are non-partisan..... Do you know what that means? :open_mouth:
    Wait, I know this one. It means someone is not a pointy stick with a blady-hook thing on the end.
  • AvlanAvlan Member Posts: 21

    Logic fail.... error.... error..... :o You just made a whole bunch of claims that can't be proven but before I get to those, i'll address your first comment. No, I don't see anything wrong with asking for $6,000 and then actually getting more donations than she asked for.... Did she actually ASK for more than that? No, she did not. So where exactly is the problem? lol Now on to the problems with your claims...

    So, this explains the massive jump in revenue in her company that she started during the whole gamergate thing...how again?
    How about a link:
    http://www.reaxxion.com/4624/feminist-frequencys-undisclosed-relationship-with-intel-leads-to-massive-payday
    It even has a pretty looking graph to explain it.

    #1. You claim she wasn't a fan of gaming before she started making videos, even though she admitted that she was a gamer as a child, which refutes your comment entirely. She had been a gamer before... Yes, she did leave gaming as she grew up and never really was involved in it after that but it doesn't change the fact that she had been a gamer. Therefore your claim is wrong. Now if I wanted to I could point out that a lot of the big names supported by GamerGate have never claimed anything about being gamers either, such as thunderf00t, Christine Summers, etc... Does that mean they are frauds for profiting from the controversy? No, actually, they are not and neither is Sarkeesian. My next point is WHY they are not frauds for that reason...




    #2. You don't have to be a gamer to discuss this issue. Period. Do you have to be a director or actor to discuss movies? Do you have to be a professional athlete to discuss professional sports? Of course not. That is complete and utter nonsense. Sarkeesian's channel has always been about gender issues in entertainment media. Keyword being MEDIA. Games are a form of media.

    #2. No, she did not just throw together a bunch of clips. She provided clips of games during her discussion about the issues. Throwing together just a bunch of clips is called a montage.

    #3. Nothing you said actually proves she is a con-artist. You made a false conclusion based on a faulty premise.
    (There is a youtube version of this as well, but the vimeo link was much shorter)
    12:47 - 14.47
    "I am not a fan of video games, I had to learn a lot about them" -Anita Sarkeesian

    But why were you not the one to bring it up since you brought up Sarkeesian? Why did you only target one side?

    I already told you. You provided the information already. There was no point saying it again.

    Wait, so unless every single member of a group agrees about an issue regarding equal treatment and representation, then we shouldn't advocate for it? In that case, women, black people and LGBT wouldn't even have many rights at all because there have always been members of each group that oppose their rights. People like Ann Coulter don't think women should be allowed to vote so I guess we should stop that right? That's ridiculous reasoning.

    No advocating for someone's rights is not using them. This is just a cheap tactic used by the opposition in almost every area now, just like how republicans stomp over the equality of black people when they gutted the voting rights act while saying, "No, its the other side that is just using the black community! We're the ones who really care about you! Now excuse me while we create some voter ID laws that disproportionately affect your specific group."

    What I am saying is, everyone in the LGBT community has their own thoughts and their own minds. Jumping in the the whole Gamergate nonsense, then exploiting women and the LGBT community to gain revenue is wrong. Why is this hard to understand? She is literally using people like you for her own agenda, and you are falling for it hook, line, and sinker.



  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited April 2016
    Does anyone else think that arguing about what a certain individual may or may not have done is a total smokescreen to divert attention from indefensible 19th century prejudices?
  • XzarXzar Member Posts: 215
    Fardragon said:

    Does anyone else think that arguing about what a certain individual may or may not have done is a total smokescreen to divert attention from indefensible 19th century prejudices?

    What if I told you that I detest 19 century values because... I prefer those of 3rd century before Christ?
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    Skatan said:

    Fardragon said:

    @Fardragon LGBT rights aren't a problem unique to USA, what are you saying?

    No, but people who object to them aren't accepted as mainstream in many other contries.
    I'm speculating, but I think many european countries are on the same level, or surpassing it, as USA when it comes to LGTB euality work. You can often see these kind of evolution tied to economic progress; the richer the country's average income, the further it has come. And Europe has alot of countries with a very large portion of it's population being urbanized with good incomes and high level of education. It's the best breeding grounds for equality work really, especially when it's coupled with a high level of secularization. It's not that simple correlation of course, but it's a fairly good, generic assessment of a country's overall progress towards equality.
    First of all, the United States has a higher level of college educated adults than any European country other than Luxembourg. Secondly, we have legalized gay marriage, which is more than I can say for major European players such as Germany, France and Italy. Also, thanks to the wonderful idea of federalism, we legalized gay marriage in many parts of the country long before the UK and the Scandanavian nations did so overall. Massachusetts was the sixth jurisdiction in the entire world to do so.

    As far as LGBT rights are concerned, we agree on most things here in the States. The one LGBT area where there is some tension is over gay marriage. Yet even then, many sincere, well-meaning religious people disagree with me on that matter, yet are not hateful. Many are, but you'd be surprised how civil these conversation can be.

    We remain a forward-looking culture. We have our fair share of neanderthals, but so do everyone. Ours come to the forefront simply because we are the most over-represented people in the media and under a spotlight more than anywhere else in the world. This is usually very beneficial, but it also means our dirty laundry is usually very public. Don't judge the entire country by our loudest and most vulgar. (except for New Jersey)
  • ZilchkZilchk Member Posts: 46

    How about this? How about we all act like adults (I'm assuming most of us ARE adults), and get the hell over a minor npc who has no real affect on the story? How about we stop being butthurt that Safana has a story arc devoted to her, because some of us are being idiots who think this is another version of Gamersgate? How about we all act our freakin', assumingly mature, ages?!

    Speaking of which is that character simply a crossdresser or did he use magic/magical items to transform into a woman?
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    Zilchk said:

    How about this? How about we all act like adults (I'm assuming most of us ARE adults), and get the hell over a minor npc who has no real affect on the story? How about we stop being butthurt that Safana has a story arc devoted to her, because some of us are being idiots who think this is another version of Gamersgate? How about we all act our freakin', assumingly mature, ages?!

    Speaking of which is that character simply a crossdresser or did he use magic/magical items to transform into a woman?
    "In time, we all came to understand I was truly a woman." She's a woman.
  • ZilchkZilchk Member Posts: 46
    edited April 2016
    joluv said:

    Zilchk said:

    How about this? How about we all act like adults (I'm assuming most of us ARE adults), and get the hell over a minor npc who has no real affect on the story? How about we stop being butthurt that Safana has a story arc devoted to her, because some of us are being idiots who think this is another version of Gamersgate? How about we all act our freakin', assumingly mature, ages?!

    Speaking of which is that character simply a crossdresser or did he use magic/magical items to transform into a woman?
    "In time, we all came to understand I was truly a woman." She's a woman.
    But just thinking that you are a woman and changing your name doesn't make you one so she is a crossdresser after all? Or some kind of hermaphrodite?
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,352



    First of all, the United States has a higher level of college educated adults than any European country other than Luxembourg. Secondly, we have legalized gay marriage, which is more than I can say for major European players such as Germany, France and Italy. Also, thanks to the wonderful idea of federalism, we legalized gay marriage in many parts of the country long before the UK and the Scandanavian nations did so overall. Massachusetts was the sixth jurisdiction in the entire world to do so.

    As far as LGBT rights are concerned, we agree on most things here in the States. The one LGBT area where there is some tension is over gay marriage. Yet even then, many sincere, well-meaning religious people disagree with me on that matter, yet are not hateful. Many are, but you'd be surprised how civil these conversation can be.

    We remain a forward-looking culture. We have our fair share of neanderthals, but so do everyone. Ours come to the forefront simply because we are the most over-represented people in the media and under a spotlight more than anywhere else in the world. This is usually very beneficial, but it also means our dirty laundry is usually very public. Don't judge the entire country by our loudest and most vulgar. (except for New Jersey)

    The only reason I said that some countries in Europe is surpassing USA is because they are about the size of one of your states. And since not all of your states think or legislate the same, ie my own country (Sweden) can be said to arguable be more 'equalized' than USA as a whole though on par with US' most progressive states.
  • Sids1188Sids1188 Member Posts: 166
    And yet here in Australia, we can't even claim any of our states as being equal. We know we're doing something wrong when Alabama can look down their noses at us.

    Actually... Can we claim New Zealand as a state? What do you say, Kiwis? We're jealous.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    Skatan said:

    The only reason I said that some countries in Europe is surpassing USA is because they are about the size of one of your states. And since not all of your states think or legislate the same, ie my own country (Sweden) can be said to arguable be more 'equalized' than USA as a whole though on par with US' most progressive states.

    I know, but I see many people around the world have a misguided view about the US, and I felt the need to clarify what the actual state of affairs is.
  • GozetaGozeta Member Posts: 105
    I don't care as long as the story is good. Also, opinions are like ***holes. Everyone has one except for Kim Jong-il, apparently.
  • LoldrupLoldrup Member Posts: 291
    KcoQuidam said:

    One trans secondary character and one joke ligne about a shapeless internet groupe in a 25h+ long story ? -> so many threads and subjects all other the internet for talking about that.

    Let LGBT characters come in legion! They are not my problem. And many (probably most) Beamdog critics would say the same.

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850

    Skatan said:

    The only reason I said that some countries in Europe is surpassing USA is because they are about the size of one of your states. And since not all of your states think or legislate the same, ie my own country (Sweden) can be said to arguable be more 'equalized' than USA as a whole though on par with US' most progressive states.

    I know, but I see many people around the world have a misguided view about the US, and I felt the need to clarify what the actual state of affairs is.
    The "bathroom bills" in NC and other states beg to differ with you. This country is collectively worried about nonsense and phantoms like a non-existent threat of transgender people sneaking into bathrooms to conduct sexual assaults. Paranoid delusions become actual policy and law in this country, especially states with a Republican Governor and Legislature. If it weren't for corporations turning to the side of LGBT rights simply from a monetary perspective because they realized it was bad business to alienate 10% or more of the population, we still wouldn't be where we are. States like Indiana and Georgia were primed to sign discrimination into law. States like Louisiana and North Carolina did. More will follow.
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    Social Justice is cancer.
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    I think the "warfare" was unnecessarily meant to provoke a reaction in the poll.

    DnD - SJ = Diablo. I like Diablo. But it is not DnD.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited May 2016

    Skatan said:

    The only reason I said that some countries in Europe is surpassing USA is because they are about the size of one of your states. And since not all of your states think or legislate the same, ie my own country (Sweden) can be said to arguable be more 'equalized' than USA as a whole though on par with US' most progressive states.

    I know, but I see many people around the world have a misguided view about the US, and I felt the need to clarify what the actual state of affairs is.
    The "bathroom bills" in NC and other states beg to differ with you. This country is collectively worried about nonsense and phantoms like a non-existent threat of transgender people sneaking into bathrooms to conduct sexual assaults. Paranoid delusions become actual policy and law in this country, especially states with a Republican Governor and Legislature. If it weren't for corporations turning to the side of LGBT rights simply from a monetary perspective because they realized it was bad business to alienate 10% or more of the population, we still wouldn't be where we are. States like Indiana and Georgia were primed to sign discrimination into law. States like Louisiana and North Carolina did. More will follow.
    It's not even about transgender people. The fearmongering is about cisgender men claiming to be transgender women in order to gain access to women's rooms so as to rape cisgender women.

    The fact that this has basically never happened doesn't stop them from constantly reusing the same story over and over again.
    You're correct, but transgender people, who already suffer beatings and suicide at a far larger rate than the rest of the population, are the ones who are going to be the target of reprisals and harassment. It's literally a non-existent problem. There isn't one documented case of it happening. But it is incredibly easy to convince stupid people it is happening by playing to their fear of anything different.
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108

    Skatan said:

    The only reason I said that some countries in Europe is surpassing USA is because they are about the size of one of your states. And since not all of your states think or legislate the same, ie my own country (Sweden) can be said to arguable be more 'equalized' than USA as a whole though on par with US' most progressive states.

    I know, but I see many people around the world have a misguided view about the US, and I felt the need to clarify what the actual state of affairs is.
    The "bathroom bills" in NC and other states beg to differ with you. This country is collectively worried about nonsense and phantoms like a non-existent threat of transgender people sneaking into bathrooms to conduct sexual assaults. Paranoid delusions become actual policy and law in this country, especially states with a Republican Governor and Legislature. If it weren't for corporations turning to the side of LGBT rights simply from a monetary perspective because they realized it was bad business to alienate 10% or more of the population, we still wouldn't be where we are. States like Indiana and Georgia were primed to sign discrimination into law. States like Louisiana and North Carolina did. More will follow.
    It's not even about transgender people. The fearmongering is about cisgender men claiming to be transgender women in order to gain access to women's rooms so as to rape cisgender women.

    The fact that this has basically never happened doesn't stop them from constantly reusing the same story over and over again.
    You're correct, but transgender people, who already suffer beatings and suicide at a far larger rate than the rest of the population, are the ones who are going to be the target of reprisals and harassment. It's literally a non-existent problem. There isn't one documented case of it happening. But it is incredibly easy to convince stupid people it is happening by playing to their fear of anything different.
    Yes, it's the most emotionally manipulative story they can ply to get what they want. Such a bill failed here in Washington recently so now they're trying to get it on the ballot later this year. Would be nice if they just backed off and stopped being so terrible.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850

    I find it funny that the assumption of these people is that the devious men who are going to sneak into bathrooms to rape women will only do so when its legal for them to enter the bathroom first.

    You have to understand that the arguments and reasons given by politicians for these kind of bills are completely disingenuous and cynical. They (by and large) know it's nonsense and a false threat. But they also know that the people they are trying to get to the polls with this crap (and that's right-wing, conservative Evangelicals) are some of the biggest dupes on the planet. How long have they been promising them to end abortion?? How long is it going to take for them to realize that they don't WANT to end abortion, they want the ISSUE so they can continue to play that card.
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108
    Yeah, I should have been clearer - the "cover story" isn't directly about transgender people, but the intended purpose is to harm transgender people.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    The GOP controlled the House, the Senate, and the White House in the early years of the Bush administration. That's all three of the bodies that you need to pass a law. Despite having the power to implement strong anti-abortion policies at the federal level with little opposition, the GOP failed to do anything to stop it from happening.

    You could say that a ban on abortion would be unconstitutional because X, Y, and Z. But the standard GOP position on abortion is that it is literally child murder--you don't just let the states decide whether or not you can kill babies. You'd ban it. I'm pro-choice, but if murder is what abortion boils down to, you HAVE to stop it. You can't just let it slide.

    Normally, I'm inclined to think that people mean what they say. If somebody has an economic policy I think is bad, I'm pretty sure they do in fact think it's good. There's no ulterior motive; they just happen to disagree with me. It's an honest position.

    But if our legislators in the GOP genuinely believed that abortion was child murder, they'd have done something to stop it when they had the chance. They did not try to stop it; therefore they do not believe it is wrong.
  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,768
    The thing about the bathroom laws that gets me, is that it forces someone who identifies as a man, who is attracted to women, to use the ladies room. And this makes fundies feel better... why?
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    BillyYank said:

    The thing about the bathroom laws that gets me, is that it forces someone who identifies as a man, who is attracted to women, to use the ladies room. And this makes fundies feel better... why?

    It makes them feel better because it could conceivably "punish" someone whose lifestyle they find repugnant. Much like most of the abortion debate isn't about saving babies. It's about punishing women for having sex.
  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    My answer would be: I am fine with it, in fact supportive whenever it increases immersion and gaming joy for any other gamer.

    My preferred immersion is a sassy, amiably disposed dual-wielding female rogue in a high fantasy RPG - I love my own immersion, and would like everyone to feel the same. Single preset heros can be fine, but if I never got my preferred immersion I'd enjoy gaming less as a hobby.

    This btw also includes immersion of also macho-heteronormative gaming fans, as long as they respect that of others to equal measure, and do not think that gaming should exclusively pander to their particular gameplay preference.

    Excepting BioWare I can hardly think any LGBT characters in fact. The Captain aka Fal in Two Worlds II is homosexual. Dethmold of The Witcher 2 is homosexual, but that char rubs me massively the wrong way because the characterization is rather vile IMO. There was some lesbian spanking action by that mage woman baddie in the same game, and apparently the brothel keeping woman who kills herself is a lesbian as well. Skyrim is totally indiscriminatory in the marriage scheme, but also your marriage partner does not really have an identity.

    Probably missing some, but I hail BioWare in this regard for having massively pushed the envelope. Heck, I even rolled a male inki just to romance Dorian, whom I found the best new char in DA:I!
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