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Kind of a big plot hole

Viconia. Her being in SoD is a plot hole by itself. And her romance\friendship development with the player too.

1. When she meets you in BG2 she barely recognizes the player.
2. Romancing her takes time and there are zero hints of any prior friendship. Quite the opposite in fact.
3. She tells you what she has been doing since last you met her near Beregost.

Viconia needs some serious rewriting in BG2 or the whole thing will be a rather big mess. She shouldn't have been near this expansion pack due to her story. Ripple effects, and all that. She is a walking contradiction now.
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Comments

  • KrotosKrotos Member Posts: 156
    Considering the fact you can have her in your party in BG1 pre-SoD, #3 was her contradicting herself long before SoD took place. It's just more apparent now, I'd say.
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    Bg2 takes place around 6 months after BG1, I believe. The player character hangs out in Baldur's Gate for a time before being ambushed on the road by vamps. That gives her time to do her own thing for awhile.
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  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    So in other words just closing your eyes and ears and go "lalalalala".
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited April 2016
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  • fkirenicusfkirenicus Member Posts: 331
    If memory serves BG1 happens in DR 1369 and BG2 in 1370.
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621

    No. Your 3 points are valid whether comparing vanilla BG1 and BG2 or comparing EE SoD and BG2. They are not particular to SoD.

    1. If you travelled with her in BG1 or SoD, why doesn't she recognise you?
    2. If you travelled with her in BG1 or SoD, wouldn't there have been some level of friendship?
    3. If you travelled with her in BG1 or SoD, why would she refer to what she's been doing since you last met near Beregost?

    Rawgrim said:

    Bg2 takes place around 6 months after BG1, I believe. The player character hangs out in Baldur's Gate for a time before being ambushed on the road by vamps. That gives her time to do her own thing for awhile.

    Where do you get this? You're imagining, right?
    I think it was in the official Forgotten Realms timeline, in The History of the Realms. The BG games are canon so they do get a mention.
  • Mikey205Mikey205 Member Posts: 307
    I think it does make it worse because potentially you travelled together for much longer now and have been through more so probably feels a bit more jarring.
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    BG1 and 2 takes place in year 1368. Viconia certainly has a very very short memory.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited April 2016
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  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    Every NPC "doesn't recognize" you when they see you again, except for the canon party. Edwin in BG2 also doesn't recognize you, so the same logic would apply to him as well. It is just a (in my opinion, poor) way to add enough vagueness to allow players to stay somewhat consistent with their prior playthroughs, and has been going on since Shadows of Amn was released. The bigger concern was that Minsc and Rasaad didn't recognize me in SoD, and they literally left my party about five minutes ago in real time.

    I prefer the way they did it in Throne of Bhaal. They also have very entertaining entrance lines :)
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    wubble said:

    Rawgrim said:

    No. Your 3 points are valid whether comparing vanilla BG1 and BG2 or comparing EE SoD and BG2. They are not particular to SoD.

    1. If you travelled with her in BG1 or SoD, why doesn't she recognise you?
    2. If you travelled with her in BG1 or SoD, wouldn't there have been some level of friendship?
    3. If you travelled with her in BG1 or SoD, why would she refer to what she's been doing since you last met near Beregost?

    Rawgrim said:

    Bg2 takes place around 6 months after BG1, I believe. The player character hangs out in Baldur's Gate for a time before being ambushed on the road by vamps. That gives her time to do her own thing for awhile.

    Where do you get this? You're imagining, right?
    I think it was in the official Forgotten Realms timeline, in The History of the Realms. The BG games are canon so they do get a mention.
    The bg games aren't canon. The books are canon but very different to the games and considered by most to be heretical works in need of a good burning.
    I think they are canon now, actually. Since that Minsc comic was made canon. Minsc is as he is in the games in the comics. In the books he is only in it for a chapter or so. Bumbling guy driven mad by torture. Curly hair he has too, and he is no berserker or from Rashamen. I think he just gets a job at a tavern after a chapter or so.

    The books are heretical, though. Bigtime.
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  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621

    Mikey205 said:

    I think it does make it worse because potentially you travelled together for much longer now and have been through more so probably feels a bit more jarring.

    Yes, I could see how it widens an already existing plot hole. Trouble is, you can do one thing in BG1 (e.g. have Edwin in your party) then in BG2 pretend another thing has happened (e.g. 'Didn't I kill you, Edwin?'). The jump between the two has always been disjointed. With SoD, we're going to see a bigger jump between any characters in BG1 that are also in BG2.
    I think the Edwin bit was due to games not importing world-states back then, or in-game choices. You could only import the character him\herself.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    I totes got ninja'd by Tilly!
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    Tilly threw a shuriken in my cheek earlier. She is indeed a ninja.
  • rjmacreadyrjmacready Member Posts: 91
    edited April 2016
    I disagree with the first two points in the OP as I dont believe BG2 supports them and there is nothing in my view that suggests the incident at the farmstead couldnt have happened just before SoD begins (by that I mean reuniting with her before marching on dragonspear - not in the prologue crypt). We know Viconia has been occupied with something and refuses to share what.

    The could mean either brooding alone in the shadows or it could mean purchasing land outside beregost with disastrous results.
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    I was under the impression that the farmstead incident happened before you meet her in BG1. Hence why she has a mercenary after her, calling her "murderer".

    Bg1 and 2 happens during the same year, add SoD to the mix and she really doesn't have time to do anything but hang around with the PC. It takes time to get to Amn as well. So since she doesn't seem to really know the PC much at all in BG2, it just doesn't add up. If she had a bonding friendship thing going on in SoD, she certainly gives zero indication of this during the second game. The whole start of the romance is more or less a "getting to know you" kind of thing.
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621

    No the farmstead incident happens after you defeat sarevok, and before you meet her in BG2 obviously. She says "I dropped your good name where possible to remain on steady footing locally". This implies its pre-SoD for end game reasons. The flaming fist mercenary is chasing her simply because shes a Drow, not because shes committed any crime.

    Also she has plenty of time to do things as between the prologue crypt and the ducal palace I believe a good number of days pass. Also there is plenty more time for things to happen.

    Also the BG2 romance is a continual struggle of Viconia letting down her guard. Her SoD friendship backs this up nicely. Viconia has ( with good reason) serious trust issues. Her unwillingness tonshare doesnt stem from lack of time together but because sharing personal issues is a) not in her nature b) makes her feel vulnerable and invites betrayal.

    Its noticeable the first thing she does after opening up is apologize to you for it.

    Fair enough on the farmstead.

    There is still nothing in her conversation options to indicate you have ever been friends or have bonded. You can try hard to twist her words to fit some headcanon, but that is all it is. Headcanon. The only ones that should have been involved here, to avoid holes, are the ones trapped with you in Irenicus dungeon, and characters not remotely tied to the BG2 plot.
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    Tenrecc said:

    This has always been an "issue" with the series. Previous status of characters (never spoken to, had in group, romantiziced, killed) never carries over through the games, and you'll always have a very weird encounter whenever you meet one of those characters in the game. It's like two people with severe amnesia meeting each other. "Didn't I kill you last time we met? Oh wait, we had sex didn't we? Or just coffee?"

    This isn't something new, it isn't something special, and it's only an issue if you decide to make it one.

    That is because the games didn't let you import in-game choices and "world-states". Being able to do that is actually a fairly recent addition to rpgs, and not many do it.

    Viconia needs a lot of added\changed lines to tie well into BG2 now.
  • rjmacreadyrjmacready Member Posts: 91
    edited April 2016
    Thats my point. I DONT need to twist words. Its not headcanon, it simply is. I cant debate this any further unfortunately only to say you are wrong and that her BG2 romance backs me up on this.

    The only way in which this flys is that Baldurs gate characters post BG1 are written in either one or two ways: 1. Arent you dead/who are you? 2. You traveled with them.

    Its telling in BG2 you only get the second option with Viconia. You dont get to ask her who she is or why she isnt dead. You can either accept her into your party as the friend she has been or tell her to go away. Assuming you saved her that is.

    Her BG2 appearance needs no more additions than any other none irenicus dungeon party member does.
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    edited April 2016
    Yes it does. Since your later conversations with her clearly indicate no friendship or romance was ever there before. You have to get to know her from scratch.

    She tells the player she LIVED ona farm for awhile. Given that this has to happen in a week (at the most) between BG1 and SoD it just doesn't fit. It is a few days walk just to get to Beregost. She just rushed down there to live on a farm for 2-3 days, killed the farmers and rushed back? That isn't even living there. It is visiting.
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  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621

    So are you finding plot holes within her BG2 dialogue?

    SoD causes plot holes in her dialogue, yes. So they need to rewrite some stuff in BG2 and add stuff to keep it neat and tidy.
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  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    rmcready said it wasn't more than a few days. + given that the events of BG1 and 2 + 2 expansion packs all take place in the same year, the PCs schedule is already damn tight.
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