FMC just doesn't have the versatility, but there are obvious advantages to being able to heal and cast protections. Fire immunity alone is pretty cool, which means you can use the wand of fireball anywhere. Fun, although rest is needed to sustain it, not to mention money if you're going to use the wand.
FMT wins as the ultimate iconic elven spymaster IMHO. ^^
I don't know that I agree with that line of logic, if only from an Iron Man/no-death line of logic. I love what the thief can do - the hiding, detecting/disabling traps (a big one), stealing from people and stores, etc. But from a clean-run perspective, the Cleric beats the thief, especially in BG2. First of all, Clerics have healing abilities. You can carry lots of potions in, but you can't beat the versatility they offer, especially when paired with casting time-reducing items.
Furthermore, Clerics have buffs that will prevent a lot of deaths that thieves don't have. Death Ward and Chaotic Commands alone will stop a HUGE number of preventable deaths - deaths that thieves can't stop. Then of course, you have other protective buffs (some of which you mentioned), lots of good summoning spells (Deva is excellent, since tri-classed mages can't get Level 9 spells), and some wicked combat buffs. From a survival standpoint, I'd have to say the cleric wins out. :P
To counter your "buffs that prevent a lot of deaths" would be that the wider weapon selection that an FMT gets compared to an FMC allows for many of those same protections just using items.
I'm just playing the devil's advocate here, I think both have their place and it just comes down to playstyle.
@Dragonspear: Agreed. The full weapon selection of the FMT is indeed a perk. But you're right - it does boil down to playing style, which is why I side with an FMC on a no-death run.
Continuing on my merry way south, I put another arrow through a skeleton (which I think should be an accomplishment when you think about it) before stumbling my way to the next map.
Or I would have but I received that famous dreaded message for early game iron man runs:
"YOU HAVE BEEN WAYLAID BY ENEMIES AND MUST DEFEND YOURSELF"
In many ways these are some of the hardest variables to prepare for, on my previous run I had encountered a Ghast and 2 Orgillions, so I was thankful this time that it was only wild dogs and hobgoblins. However, my strategy both times remained the same, chug a potion of speed and kite like my life depends on it. I also chugged a health potion after one of the hobgoblins hit me with an arrow but otherwise I kited them around, getting close enough to the hobgoblins to switch to swords before running away again.
Finally continuing on my journey I encountered everyone's favorite talking chicken, threw him in my bag after he threatened to report me to PETA if I fried him and took him to Thalantyr. For personal amusement and to scare him I put him right next to the skull I had picked up to help him out. After managing to safely make my way back to High Hedge, I convince Thalantyr to change him back and BAM first try he becomes a human again.
With that I was out the door again and on my way to Beregost. I'll admit I was worried because thus far every one of these runs had ended at enemies in Beregost but I was determined to make it through this time.
First, I went into an Inn before I was accosted by Marl. I ended up talking him down but then after we reached an agreement and I had bought my History of Fateful Coin, he started talking behind my back. Like every other Chaotic Good hero, I fired an arrow at him, which he took offense to and then I blinded him and killed him.
I then meandered on over to Firebead and gave him his latest book before going and encountering Karlat. I went ahead and casted armor on myself and headed into the door of another inn. This one had a dwarven assassin. Once again I turned to my trusty blind spell and turned this well armored dwarf into a well armored dead dwarf.
Finally I turned my attention to Silke. The battle started out well, I magic missiled her invisibility cast before nailing her with an arrow. Then she started up her dreaded spell lightning bolt, which has caused me at least 5 restarts thus far. I quickly hit her with a blind and in a surprising turn of events it interrupted her lightning bolt spell. I then finally killed her and that's where I saved before heading to work.
Finally I've come to determine that Blind might not only be one of the most underrated level one spells but might very well be the most powerful of them all until you get to level 8 or 9.
First of all, Clerics have healing abilities. You can carry lots of potions in, but you can't beat the versatility they offer, especially when paired with casting time-reducing items.
Furthermore, Clerics have buffs that will prevent a lot of deaths that thieves don't have. Death Ward and Chaotic Commands alone will stop a HUGE number of preventable deaths - deaths that thieves can't stop.
Then of course, you have other protective buffs (some of which you mentioned), lots of good summoning spells (Deva is excellent, since tri-classed mages can't get Level 9 spells), and some wicked combat buffs. From a survival standpoint, I'd have to say the cleric wins out. :P
BLASPHEMY!
No, you're right, there are some advantages. I think the FMT is better off early on, but the FMC might surpass the FMT with enough xp. It's hard to say though with items, but some are acquired in ToB, which is pretty late in the Saga. The Deva is definitely a pro for the FMC, lol, that's for sure! (although it'll require over 4 mil xp for the FMC) I'm going to have to do some more solo play with the FMT to see what obstacles I come up against.
edit: For the record though, I have solod BG1 with the FMT, and had few problems (no Iron Man, but it was a very fun playthrough, with very few deaths--the greatest challenges were killing Slythe, and making sure that the Grand Dukes survive Sarevok's assassination plot). I haven't solod BG2 with the FMT though, I'll have to give it a go when I have some spare time.
And thus the sad tale of Lelidrea the Fighter/Mage/Thief comes to an end. Korax was already dead when I finally happened upon the Gnome with a Greater and Lesser Bassilisk. I had potions of mirror eyes (had one active even) but running away from the gnome casting at me caused my potion to wear off before I could kill the greater basilisk. I had gotten up to 3/2/2 but I think I'm going to work on runs that don't involve me not dying for now
I'll definitely remember this in the future though. Now back to IWD and trying to decide what kinda party I want to run while making use of every weapon type.
@Dragonspear: dang, that sucks. Those basilisks can be murder to kill - it's why I spent as little time as possible staying in there (only to get the Golden Girdle - I encountered only one basilisk and I had Protection from Petrification cast). Fact: My last death before completing the challenge was from a basilisk in a random "YOU HAVE BEEN WAYLAID BY ENEMIES" encounter...I had a save of 7 and failed it before I even knew he was there.
@fighter_mage_thief: Ahh, that's pretty cool to know. You certainly should give it a go sometime, since they really do have their different strengths and weaknesses.
------------------- A New Beginning -------------------
Athkatla! I have been away for too long. Once conquering Sarevok in a battle of epic proportions, my character set off to new and wondrous adventures...or at least I think he did, because my next memory was of my being dumped in a cell in the middle of god knows where. Then it hit me: the dreaded Irenicus dungeon. I've done this a million times before, and each time I still seem to enjoy it somewhat...I don't know why. But I did find that my character mysteriously gained a whole ton of HP between the first and second game. At the end of BG1 I had some 70 HP (base), and at the start of BG2 I had 118...I have absolutely no idea how or why this happened, but they are permanent and I can't really change it.
I basically did my normal routine going through the dungeon: pick up gear, kill the mephits, talk to the genie, free Rieltek (or whatever his name is), activate the golem, kill the two clay golems, go to the dwarves...well you get the idea. Sadly Jahiera and Minsc were left to rot, since this is a solo challenge and as such I was obligated to avoid them.
I didn't have any close encounters with death in the dungeon primarily since I know it like the back of my hand. However, upon leaving the dungeon I found that I was missing THE HELM OF BALDURAN. I don't remember if it wasn't there or for some inexplicable reason I didn't pick it up in my haste...but that feels like a punch in the gut. Now seeing as how I have more health I can't complain, but still. I sold my stuff for ~8000 gold, then proceeded to do the circus. I always find that quest fun to go through, and the Stoneskin spell + the Ring of Human Influence make for some nice prizes. Coupled with a spell of Friends and I can get some sweet discounts at the store.
Following that, I get Gaelan Bayle's deal, I went to the Copper Coronet to get in a few bar fights and trigger the De'Arnise Keep quest (mostly for the sweet flail), then I proceeded to go to Watcher's Keep. This was mostly because I got into a fight with slavers, the ones with those magic items and the Arbane's Sword +2, which sells for 3000 alone. I'm close to my 15K goal, and with it the exceedingly valuable Amulet of Power and Ring of Protection +2 that will serve me throughout the entire game. As it stands, these are my current stats and items:
UPDATE: Okay, my character has 118 hit points...how? Not that I'm complaining, but I didn't have anywhere near that when I finished BG1.
I've heard there are bugs with HP when you import from BG1 to BG2. If you want the full challenge you can fix it to what it should be in Shadowkeeper... otherwise just enjoy the extra HP.
UPDATE: Okay, my character has 118 hit points...how? Not that I'm complaining, but I didn't have anywhere near that when I finished BG1.
I've heard there are bugs with HP when you import from BG1 to BG2. If you want the full challenge you can fix it to what it should be in Shadowkeeper... otherwise just enjoy the extra HP.
I did this for the challenge...so I suppose that is what I will do. I had 72 HP at the end of BG1, plus another 22 for subsequent levelups, so my character *should* have 94. That's not terrible, really. I guess I had a semi-cheat going on in the very, very beginning of the game, though I never fell below that mark in the game so I suppose it's fine.
What's most frustrating is that while I had used my last potion of mirrored eyes (I bought 3 from Talantyr when I decided I'd head there), I still had a protection from petrification memorized. The problem was that literally no sooner did my pot fall off than I was petrified. I literally think the basalisk attack was "in the air" so to say. It was really irritating. Now I have to decide if I want to finish the game with that character anyway.
And thus the sad tale of Lelidrea the Fighter/Mage/Thief comes to an end. Korax was already dead when I finally happened upon the Gnome with a Greater and Lesser Bassilisk. I had potions of mirror eyes (had one active even) but running away from the gnome casting at me caused my potion to wear off before I could kill the greater basilisk. I had gotten up to 3/2/2 but I think I'm going to work on runs that don't involve me not dying for now
I'll definitely remember this in the future though. Now back to IWD and trying to decide what kinda party I want to run while making use of every weapon type.
A tragic tale!
Protection from Petrification, the level one mage spell, is sold by the very guy you returned Melicamp the chicken to and from who you likely bought the potion, Thalantyr, and the spell lasts five times as long as the Potion of Mirrored Eyes.
Welp, had my first failure in BG2. what happened, you may ask? I got charmed. THIS is why I play with a cleric - chaotic commands stops the inevitable charming that always seems to happen with me.
Time to re-start in the Irenicus dungeon - though this time I'll be sure to set my HP to what it should have been at the start.
EDIT: Wow, it really is glitchy sending characters from BG1 into BG2 - now I have 5 fewer HP than what I should have.
I only ask because I'm wondering if its possible for you to have Lirlacor or one of the many swords/rings/amulets that make you immune to charm yet.
I was in the Thumb's pub, killing those pirates in the secret room. The first Charm spell I saved against, but the second I did not. Also, remember that my character is a cleric - I can't use greatswords. What sucks is that I was level 8 in that class - almost high enough to have access to the spell.
Ahaha, okay. At least this time I know what to avoid. I was actually planning on doing the Mook quest for some quick XP, but I remembered that vampires can use Domination, and I was probably gonna fail my save against it. Guess that line of thinking didn't do me much good haha.
@Bynary_Fission : That is unfortunate - but keep in mind that the first level spell, Protection from Evil, grants you immunity to charm as well
@Dragonspear : Basilisks are unforgiving sadly. But for the best protection against them, drop by in the Nashkel Carnival. A dude there sells a green scroll of protection from petrification, which lasts a whooping 8 hours!
@Bynary_Fission : That is unfortunate - but keep in mind that the first level spell, Protection from Evil, grants you immunity to charm as well
It doesn't for me for some reason. It's description also only says you get -2 to AC and +2 to saves against evil enemies. What you're saying is definitely true in 3rd ed though.
@fighter_mage_thief : I believe it only works in Baldur's Gate 2. In Baldur's Gate 1, it just gave the things you explained. I am pretty darn convinced it has the charm immunity effect on the Baldur's Gate 2 side of things, both mage and cleric versions (that's why you could potentially go on a Sirine killing rampage on BGEE on level 1 XD )
I'm fairly certain I had cast Protection from Evil before going into the battle where I got charmed. I know it works in BG1 (so THAT'S why the sirines couldn't charm me...), but I don't ever recall it doing that in BG2.
Protection from evil is kind of unique in its use. If you get charmed while you wear it, you'll still get the red spiral symbol on your portrait, but your circle will stay green instead of turning red. Maybe in BG2 this is still an instant-kill when soloing? I am pretty sure I never had anything else than Prot. from evil against charm spells, or protection from evil radius 10', since it lasts 5 times longer per level of the caster!
Sometime enemies who charm dont cast from a charm spell. It can be dominate or more likely, some unique ability which functions like charm but can bypass certain immunities like prot evil.
I just tested, it appears that prot. from evil doesn't work against Charm spell, but it does so in BG1.
Generally speaking though, if you're immune to charm, you're immune to all... charming effects. Dominate included.
Best ways around it would probably be a helmet of charm protection simply. Which can be gotten at the temple of Lathander if I am not mistaken, as well as from Meccar Pebblecrusher's battle? Either way, it's a useful tool for sure, especially for characters like mine which is completely unprotected normally against charm spells, as it seems to be the case.
Other than that, Lilacor gives charm immunity, Equalizer,...
True, but those cost money and have charges or are limited. Was thinking more of a permanent panic button (like a second weapon or such thing that protects you)
Spell Immunity : Enchant, should also work very well. Improved invisibility or Shadow Door too, as long as they don't true see you (which happens maybe once in the entirety of BG2 actually)
I running one of these right now and my rep dropped too low. I have to run around in Nashkel on Sanctuary now so that I can continue the plot due to the one hostile guard.
Basilisks can still damage you in melee though. Lesser ones for very little damage, greater ones are pains in the arse though, as they not only have a formidable THAC0 and APR, but also poison you. As long as you use bows or ranged weapons in general, you should be fine.
(it is worth noting that in BG1 Korax can't stun them, but you can still blind them as far as I noticed)
Comments
To counter your "buffs that prevent a lot of deaths" would be that the wider weapon selection that an FMT gets compared to an FMC allows for many of those same protections just using items.
I'm just playing the devil's advocate here, I think both have their place and it just comes down to playstyle.
Or I would have but I received that famous dreaded message for early game iron man runs:
"YOU HAVE BEEN WAYLAID BY ENEMIES AND MUST DEFEND YOURSELF"
In many ways these are some of the hardest variables to prepare for, on my previous run I had encountered a Ghast and 2 Orgillions, so I was thankful this time that it was only wild dogs and hobgoblins. However, my strategy both times remained the same, chug a potion of speed and kite like my life depends on it. I also chugged a health potion after one of the hobgoblins hit me with an arrow but otherwise I kited them around, getting close enough to the hobgoblins to switch to swords before running away again.
Finally continuing on my journey I encountered everyone's favorite talking chicken, threw him in my bag after he threatened to report me to PETA if I fried him and took him to Thalantyr. For personal amusement and to scare him I put him right next to the skull I had picked up to help him out. After managing to safely make my way back to High Hedge, I convince Thalantyr to change him back and BAM first try he becomes a human again.
With that I was out the door again and on my way to Beregost. I'll admit I was worried because thus far every one of these runs had ended at enemies in Beregost but I was determined to make it through this time.
First, I went into an Inn before I was accosted by Marl. I ended up talking him down but then after we reached an agreement and I had bought my History of Fateful Coin, he started talking behind my back. Like every other Chaotic Good hero, I fired an arrow at him, which he took offense to and then I blinded him and killed him.
I then meandered on over to Firebead and gave him his latest book before going and encountering Karlat. I went ahead and casted armor on myself and headed into the door of another inn. This one had a dwarven assassin. Once again I turned to my trusty blind spell and turned this well armored dwarf into a well armored dead dwarf.
Finally I turned my attention to Silke. The battle started out well, I magic missiled her invisibility cast before nailing her with an arrow. Then she started up her dreaded spell lightning bolt, which has caused me at least 5 restarts thus far. I quickly hit her with a blind and in a surprising turn of events it interrupted her lightning bolt spell. I then finally killed her and that's where I saved before heading to work.
Finally I've come to determine that Blind might not only be one of the most underrated level one spells but might very well be the most powerful of them all until you get to level 8 or 9.
No, you're right, there are some advantages. I think the FMT is better off early on, but the FMC might surpass the FMT with enough xp. It's hard to say though with items, but some are acquired in ToB, which is pretty late in the Saga. The Deva is definitely a pro for the FMC, lol, that's for sure! (although it'll require over 4 mil xp for the FMC) I'm going to have to do some more solo play with the FMT to see what obstacles I come up against.
edit: For the record though, I have solod BG1 with the FMT, and had few problems (no Iron Man, but it was a very fun playthrough, with very few deaths--the greatest challenges were killing Slythe, and making sure that the Grand Dukes survive Sarevok's assassination plot). I haven't solod BG2 with the FMT though, I'll have to give it a go when I have some spare time.
I'll definitely remember this in the future though. Now back to IWD and trying to decide what kinda party I want to run while making use of every weapon type.
@fighter_mage_thief: Ahh, that's pretty cool to know. You certainly should give it a go sometime, since they really do have their different strengths and weaknesses.
-------------------
A New Beginning
-------------------
Athkatla! I have been away for too long. Once conquering Sarevok in a battle of epic proportions, my character set off to new and wondrous adventures...or at least I think he did, because my next memory was of my being dumped in a cell in the middle of god knows where. Then it hit me: the dreaded Irenicus dungeon. I've done this a million times before, and each time I still seem to enjoy it somewhat...I don't know why. But I did find that my character mysteriously gained a whole ton of HP between the first and second game. At the end of BG1 I had some 70 HP (base), and at the start of BG2 I had 118...I have absolutely no idea how or why this happened, but they are permanent and I can't really change it.
I basically did my normal routine going through the dungeon: pick up gear, kill the mephits, talk to the genie, free Rieltek (or whatever his name is), activate the golem, kill the two clay golems, go to the dwarves...well you get the idea. Sadly Jahiera and Minsc were left to rot, since this is a solo challenge and as such I was obligated to avoid them.
I didn't have any close encounters with death in the dungeon primarily since I know it like the back of my hand. However, upon leaving the dungeon I found that I was missing THE HELM OF BALDURAN. I don't remember if it wasn't there or for some inexplicable reason I didn't pick it up in my haste...but that feels like a punch in the gut. Now seeing as how I have more health I can't complain, but still. I sold my stuff for ~8000 gold, then proceeded to do the circus. I always find that quest fun to go through, and the Stoneskin spell + the Ring of Human Influence make for some nice prizes. Coupled with a spell of Friends and I can get some sweet discounts at the store.
Following that, I get Gaelan Bayle's deal, I went to the Copper Coronet to get in a few bar fights and trigger the De'Arnise Keep quest (mostly for the sweet flail), then I proceeded to go to Watcher's Keep. This was mostly because I got into a fight with slavers, the ones with those magic items and the Arbane's Sword +2, which sells for 3000 alone. I'm close to my 15K goal, and with it the exceedingly valuable Amulet of Power and Ring of Protection +2 that will serve me throughout the entire game. As it stands, these are my current stats and items:
EDIT: It's done.
What's most frustrating is that while I had used my last potion of mirrored eyes (I bought 3 from Talantyr when I decided I'd head there), I still had a protection from petrification memorized. The problem was that literally no sooner did my pot fall off than I was petrified. I literally think the basalisk attack was "in the air" so to say. It was really irritating. Now I have to decide if I want to finish the game with that character anyway.
Protection from Petrification, the level one mage spell, is sold by the very guy you returned Melicamp the chicken to and from who you likely bought the potion, Thalantyr, and the spell lasts five times as long as the Potion of Mirrored Eyes.
Honestly the potions said 5 turns and so did the spell so I was just using the potions first.
Time to re-start in the Irenicus dungeon - though this time I'll be sure to set my HP to what it should have been at the start.
EDIT: Wow, it really is glitchy sending characters from BG1 into BG2 - now I have 5 fewer HP than what I should have.
I only ask because I'm wondering if its possible for you to have Lirlacor or one of the many swords/rings/amulets that make you immune to charm yet.
@Dragonspear : Basilisks are unforgiving sadly. But for the best protection against them, drop by in the Nashkel Carnival. A dude there sells a green scroll of protection from petrification, which lasts a whooping 8 hours!
Generally speaking though, if you're immune to charm, you're immune to all... charming effects. Dominate included.
Best ways around it would probably be a helmet of charm protection simply. Which can be gotten at the temple of Lathander if I am not mistaken, as well as from Meccar Pebblecrusher's battle?
Either way, it's a useful tool for sure, especially for characters like mine which is completely unprotected normally against charm spells, as it seems to be the case.
Other than that, Lilacor gives charm immunity, Equalizer,...
What other way to protect against charm, hmmm...
Spell Immunity : Enchant, should also work very well. Improved invisibility or Shadow Door too, as long as they don't true see you (which happens maybe once in the entirety of BG2 actually)
If they can't turn you to stone then they do no damage and are worth a metric ****ton of xp. Its why I was doing them then.
(it is worth noting that in BG1 Korax can't stun them, but you can still blind them as far as I noticed)