The last sentence in my post is quite important, but you choose to ignore that? Right.
If you want to fight fire with fire, I won't stop you. I will, however, point out that what you're doing is hypocrisy.
I wasn't referring to that, but to this: "And why can't you accept and respect that others want to see the games enhanced, not altered beyond recognition?"
Oh. See, I don't agree with that sentence (specifically, I don't agree with your definitions of "enhanced" vs "altered beyond recognition"), but it seems like a perfectly reasonable opinion for you to have. That was never the part of the argument I intended to criticize.
I love Planescape: Torment. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't also love to see an enhanced edition with the UI brought up to modern standards. I can't get the widescreen mod to work correctly on my gaming machine so it would be really great if they could make a version that works better on modern computers.
It would also be interesting to see the game ported to other platforms than the PC.
An enhanced edition would give both of us the option of playing either the new or the old version, whichever we prefer. So if you don't like the new version, don't play it!
Oh. See, I don't agree with that sentence (specifically, I don't agree with your definitions of "enhanced" vs "altered beyond recognition"), but it seems like a perfectly reasonable opinion for you to have. That was never the part of the argument I intended to criticize.
In my opinion BGEE is now altered beyond recognition, that's the reason for my statement.
Also, the reason many didn't like PS:T was that there was much reading required. Shall we change that too while we're at it, and take the game that's sooo 1999 to 2016 - perhaps turn it into an action game, with 3-node dialogs and proper characters that reflect a diverse society? And throw in a bit of trolling against people we don't like?
Like I have mentioned before, I never got too far into PST, but the UI did feel a distinctly designed part of the game as a piece of art. Specifically, the way the opening cinematic morphed into the UI led me into the game world through the UI. It immediately felt a part of the game experience. The trend with a lot of the EE design had been to take the UI apart from the game experience, and appeal directly to the 'gamer' experience - i.e., efficient and familiar from many other games, and less immersive in the experience of the specific game. There is no one change that pushes it over the edge, just an accumulation of 'clean up' and utility that cut away at the theme time and again.
PST is, even more than the BG series, about the flavor rather and experience, rather than the gaming. It is a game where the consequences of death are far less severe, so that it does not actually present an obstacle to completing the game. To optimize around gameplay would be missing the point entirely -but that has been the feel of the EE upgrades so far.
It does not mean that BeamDog do not understand this, and that they would do horrible things enhancing the games, but it does not mean they have a track record to recommend them either. We know they can do a good job updating such games to play natively on modern systems, and that alone is worth having. Playing these games at resolutions far beyond the imaginings of the original authors will have an impact on gameplay - either you play at incredible zoomed-in graininess all the time, or see a wider field of play than the game was designed for, which will have an impact on how the game unfolds - so simply taking on the project thrusts these problems front and centre.
At the end of the day, I would still love to see BeamDog take this project on, I think they can do it right, but I am still cautious.
Also, the reason many didn't like PS:T was that there was much reading required. Shall we change that while we're at it, and take the game that's sooo 1999 to 2016 - perhaps turn it into an action game, with 3-node dialogs and proper characters that reflect a diverse society? And throw in a bit of trolling against people we don't like?
Oh. See, I don't agree with that sentence (specifically, I don't agree with your definitions of "enhanced" vs "altered beyond recognition"), but it seems like a perfectly reasonable opinion for you to have. That was never the part of the argument I intended to criticize.
In my opinion BGEE is now altered beyond recognition, that's the reason for my statement.
In that case we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't think it has been "altered beyond recognition". And I don't think a PST:EE will be either.
Yeah, no. Even with the widescreen mod the PST UI is hands down the worst RPG UI I've ever used.
It must be bad. I'm currently picturing the Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind UI, and I'm having a hard time thinking of something worse and uglier than that.
Clearly BOTH of you have never played Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura.
The PS:T UI can be improved considerably without damaging the game's feel. I don't think the right click menu contributes to the game's feel at all, and actually interferes with smoothly playing the game. Since an EE will have considerably more screen real estate it shouldn't be too hard to incorporate the right click menu's functions into the UI directly (as it is with the other IE games, EE or not).
This is going to sound weird but while I love Planescape: Torment I dont think it warrants an EE and in fact would be more trouble than its worth because torment is a terrible game.
Sounds weird I know because I said I loved it but yeah. Planescape: Torment the story/lore/dialgoue/puzzles/factions/characters/whatever is great. Planescape: Torment the game is pretty poor. Its disjointed, the pacing is all over the place and at no point did I ever sit back and just enjoy it as a gameplay experience.
Good thing its damn near unquestionably the best written game ever though because all the depth and the incredible writing carried the gameplay that was as bizzare and disjointed as its setting. No other game has dumped so much level progression on me in so short a time through simple dialogue and plot choices.
Sorry this is turning a rant on my adoration mixed with annoyance feelig towards PS:T.
Simply put I think BG2 is the one that can benefit most from another content injection. All the other options just dont offer either as much room or potential in my view, so Id be happy to see one last injection of new BG2 content (preferably in ToB as it needs it most there) and then to leave the infinity engine "in great shape" as it was put and start something new.
Yeah, no. Even with the widescreen mod the PST UI is hands down the worst RPG UI I've ever used.
It must be bad. I'm currently picturing the Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind UI, and I'm having a hard time thinking of something worse and uglier than that.
Clearly BOTH of you have never played Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura.
I call your Arcanum and raise you Skyrim UI
Oh... I forgot what the stock UI was like. For the longest time, I've been using the SkyUI mod. Still, it's not the ABSOLUTE worse, at least it works quickly and smoothly. On consoles anyway.
I don't know, when I launch BG2:EE, I immediately recognize it as BG2...the new UI and added characters don't make me think I'm playing something else. Notably changed, perhaps - but unrecognizable? Even the godawful new Superman isn't unrecognizable.
While I do empathize with people who feel that the new UI detracts from their experience (I can imagine how frustrated I would feel if I strongly disliked the changes), it's a bit unfair to hate on any UI changes at this point since Beamdog has now made it completely open to modding for the first time with the newest update. I'm not a modder, but looking at the tutorial you could probably plug in the original art and restore a close approximation of the classic UI over the course of a weekend. Beamdog didn't have to do that, nor did they have to make virtually all of their other cosmetic changes toggleable.
As for turning PS:T into a mindless actioner and eliminating the deep dialogue, that would take away everything that makes Torment Torment. I don't think you can honestly and without hyperbole argue that Beamdog took away everything that made Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate.
Back on topic:
I would like to see more content for BG2 before Beamdog moves on to other OC. Not as big as SoD, maybe, but they did just hire the author of the Ascension mod as their creative director...leaving ToB in its current state would be a missed opportunity at this point.
@GenderNihilismGirdle I've never gotten around to installing it either TBH (I usually stop my playthroughs at the end of BG2), but I've seen others play it. Ascension basically takes some steps in fleshing out the game - some added banters, resurrected former enemies in the final battle, tougher boss fights, and the option to recruit Balthazar instead of kill him. I think there's some stuff in there re: Sarevok's redemption, but I could be wrong as I remember that being in stock ToB. There are Ascension diehards in the forums that could do a much better job of explaining it than I can.
Anyway, all that is just a mod made by one guy (David Gaider). Now that guy has a team of writers and developers at his disposal, so I'm hoping to see some new content for ToB to actually give me an incentive to play it more than once or twice.
Ascension was made because Gaider wasn't satisfied with how ToB shipped...now he has the ability to do something about it
@GenderNihilismGirdle I've never gotten around to installing it either TBH (I usually stop my playthroughs at the end of BG2), but I've seen others play it. Ascension basically takes some steps in fleshing out the game - some added banters, resurrected former enemies in the final battle, tougher boss fights, and the option to recruit Balthazar instead of kill him. I think there's some stuff in there re: Sarevok's redemption, but I could be wrong as I remember that being in stock ToB. There are Ascension diehards in the forums that could do a much better job of explaining it than I can.
Anyway, all that is just a mod made by one guy (David Gaider). Now that guy has a team of writers and developers at his disposal, so I'm hoping to see some new content for ToB to actually give me an incentive to play it more than once or twice.
Ascension was made because Gaider wasn't satisfied with how ToB shipped...now he has the ability to do something about it
You just simultaneously got me really excited to play ToB with this mod on and even more excited than I already was to see what @David_Gaider is going to do at Beamdog all at once.
A new Forgotten Realms game using 5th Ed rules. Set it in Waterdeep maybe? Quite a few NPCs mention it now it seems.
Waterdeep would be a cool setting for BG3, but I hope we get to see Baldur's Gate itself at some point in BG3, even if it's just being teleported there for a final showdown or something.
As is, nothing. I do not believe Beamdog is mature enough to enhance anything beyond gameplay.
I feel kinda out of place on the forums sometimes because it seems like there are two factions. The people who think Beamdog are incompetent as writers and the people who think that they're saints.
I'm in the middle. I disagree that they shouldn't develop their own future content because, while the writing in SoD wasn't quite up to standard (in my opinion) it was far from bad and I'd be willing, even wanting to see where they go from here. They seem receptive to feedback, and they interact with their community more than I have seen near any other dev.
I'll admit, I primarily voting for IWD2 because I tried installing it last week and couldn't get it to work for love nor money. What can I say? I'm a selfish bastard.
Nothing wrong with being a selfish bastard about things such as this.
@Legendary I agree with you - although I haven't been able to play SoD yet because my video card died, so I can't comment on the writing quality. I totally agree they should develop their own future content.
I have seen devs interact with their communities as much. Way back in the days of Black Isle, I remember Josh Sawyer frequently interacted with the community.
Yeah, no. Even with the widescreen mod the PST UI is hands down the worst RPG UI I've ever used.
Why do you keep playing these games you obviously loathe? And why can't you accept and respect that others want to see the games enhanced, not altered beyond recognition?
Why on earth do you think I loathe them? I love the inifinity engine games, I play most of them at least once a year. PST in particular has an amazing story, characters, themes, and choices. The UI, on the other hand, is not. I accept and respect that other feel differently, but I'll continue to give my opinion on the things I want enhanced.
Comments
It would also be interesting to see the game ported to other platforms than the PC.
An enhanced edition would give both of us the option of playing either the new or the old version, whichever we prefer. So if you don't like the new version, don't play it!
Also, the reason many didn't like PS:T was that there was much reading required. Shall we change that too while we're at it, and take the game that's sooo 1999 to 2016 - perhaps turn it into an action game, with 3-node dialogs and proper characters that reflect a diverse society? And throw in a bit of trolling against people we don't like?
PST is, even more than the BG series, about the flavor rather and experience, rather than the gaming. It is a game where the consequences of death are far less severe, so that it does not actually present an obstacle to completing the game. To optimize around gameplay would be missing the point entirely -but that has been the feel of the EE upgrades so far.
It does not mean that BeamDog do not understand this, and that they would do horrible things enhancing the games, but it does not mean they have a track record to recommend them either. We know they can do a good job updating such games to play natively on modern systems, and that alone is worth having. Playing these games at resolutions far beyond the imaginings of the original authors will have an impact on gameplay - either you play at incredible zoomed-in graininess all the time, or see a wider field of play than the game was designed for, which will have an impact on how the game unfolds - so simply taking on the project thrusts these problems front and centre.
At the end of the day, I would still love to see BeamDog take this project on, I think they can do it right, but I am still cautious.
This is going to sound weird but while I love Planescape: Torment I dont think it warrants an EE and in fact would be more trouble than its worth because torment is a terrible game.
Sounds weird I know because I said I loved it but yeah. Planescape: Torment the story/lore/dialgoue/puzzles/factions/characters/whatever is great. Planescape: Torment the game is pretty poor. Its disjointed, the pacing is all over the place and at no point did I ever sit back and just enjoy it as a gameplay experience.
Good thing its damn near unquestionably the best written game ever though because all the depth and the incredible writing carried the gameplay that was as bizzare and disjointed as its setting. No other game has dumped so much level progression on me in so short a time through simple dialogue and plot choices.
Sorry this is turning a rant on my adoration mixed with annoyance feelig towards PS:T.
Simply put I think BG2 is the one that can benefit most from another content injection. All the other options just dont offer either as much room or potential in my view, so Id be happy to see one last injection of new BG2 content (preferably in ToB as it needs it most there) and then to leave the infinity engine "in great shape" as it was put and start something new.
While I do empathize with people who feel that the new UI detracts from their experience (I can imagine how frustrated I would feel if I strongly disliked the changes), it's a bit unfair to hate on any UI changes at this point since Beamdog has now made it completely open to modding for the first time with the newest update. I'm not a modder, but looking at the tutorial you could probably plug in the original art and restore a close approximation of the classic UI over the course of a weekend. Beamdog didn't have to do that, nor did they have to make virtually all of their other cosmetic changes toggleable.
As for turning PS:T into a mindless actioner and eliminating the deep dialogue, that would take away everything that makes Torment Torment. I don't think you can honestly and without hyperbole argue that Beamdog took away everything that made Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate.
Back on topic:
I would like to see more content for BG2 before Beamdog moves on to other OC. Not as big as SoD, maybe, but they did just hire the author of the Ascension mod as their creative director...leaving ToB in its current state would be a missed opportunity at this point.
Anyway, all that is just a mod made by one guy (David Gaider). Now that guy has a team of writers and developers at his disposal, so I'm hoping to see some new content for ToB to actually give me an incentive to play it more than once or twice.
Ascension was made because Gaider wasn't satisfied with how ToB shipped...now he has the ability to do something about it
Iwe said it once... I said it twice !!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is by far the most obvious thing :
I'm in the middle. I disagree that they shouldn't develop their own future content because, while the writing in SoD wasn't quite up to standard (in my opinion) it was far from bad and I'd be willing, even wanting to see where they go from here. They seem receptive to feedback, and they interact with their community more than I have seen near any other dev.
What can I say? I'm a selfish bastard.
@Legendary I agree with you - although I haven't been able to play SoD yet because my video card died, so I can't comment on the writing quality. I totally agree they should develop their own future content.
I have seen devs interact with their communities as much. Way back in the days of Black Isle, I remember Josh Sawyer frequently interacted with the community.