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Garrick is Amazing (late game)

GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
in Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition
I know that this has been mentioned before, but I felt like it is still worth sharing. Garrick, the NPC who most people despite, is one of the best NPCs in BG1. And I take him over any mage in the game.

Now, I never run a party of more than 4. To me, BG1 just isn't visually appealing with a 6 man party, nor does it feel heroic. As such, a 4 man party needs to cover all the bases. 2 tanks, a thief, a cleric, and someone with spell casting abilities. So then, why does Garrick fit the 'mage' spot better than any actual mage?

(1) With the right equipment, he is a really good backup 'archer.'

Right now I have a lvl 8 Garrick. He has * in axes, and the returning throwing axe +2. He also has the Hands of Takkok and Kiel's Buckler. This gives him Str18/00 and Dex17. For a ranged warrior, that is great! Thaco10 is nothing to sneeze at (he hits often enough) and does 10-15 damage per hit. Sure, his Con is horrible (9) but he gets no penalties. And really, he shouldn't be taking hits to start with.

(2) Being a backup 'archer' is more important than mage levels.

There are lots of trash mobs in BG1. Most times when you fight enemies, you won't actually need any spells. Fighting a greater ghoul (one of the stronger trashmobs) means that you could throw a magic missile at it...but it'll die soon enough anyways. Meaning that mages in BG1 are 'wasting' spells on low threat enemies, or they are sitting around doing nothing. Perhaps using a sling? But they are all horrible at that, and you need to manage their inventory with bullets. Garrick doesn't have this problem, and is actually useful in clearing enemies.

(3) He has more than enough "needed" spells.

The bread and butter for BG1 wizards is the lvl3 spell slot. That is what makes them dangerous. And Garrick has wands. Meaning that he has more than enough castings of fireball, summon monster, and lightning. All of the spells that a wizard would be chucking around.

Those are the main spells that are needed for most fights. But he also has his own ability to cast spells. Namely, slow. Which against tough fighters is the main spell you need. Because 1/2 attacks, -4 AC penalty and -4 vs spell is extremely deadly, and he can cast that when needed. He can't cast as much as a mage, but you only need a spell like that very rarely. And he is there for that.

He can also use scrolls...which means that needed castings (such as extra hastes for make it or break it fights) he is there for.

(4) He's a bard!

What do I mean by that? Well, he has really high lore. Which means almost unlimited castings of identify, more or less. He can also pickpocket, which frees up points for your thief. And he has the bard song. Admittedly, it's not all that useful, but sometimes +1 luck can be nice to have or immunity to fear when fighting mages. He can sing this up until he gets his returning throwing axe and his * in axes, which helps out your front line fighters in hitting enemies and avoiding damage.

(5) In conclusion...

Garrick is very well rounded and is always useful to have around. Unlike mages, he is good to have around when clearing trash mobs without 'wasting' resources. He is good to have around when you need to cast spells, as wands are so plentiful and he can cast the needed spells which there are no wands for. He is good to have around when you need to identify something. He is good to have around when you want to pickpocket someone (Algernoon's Cloak, the Cloak of Balduran). He is good to have around when facing an enemy who casts horror, or at lower levels when +1 to hit from luck or -1 on a fireball roll can mean the difference between dying or not dying.

So to anyone who says that bards are useless, or that Garrick isn't worth taking because of his stats...I say to you that you are missing out on one of the best NPCs in the entire game. Someone that I'd gladly take over any mage, including Baeloth and Edwin.
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Comments

  • steelsoldiersteelsoldier Member Posts: 12
    I don't think it's so much as people considering bards weak, it's more on the grounds that people don't like the bard's playstyle too much.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited April 2016
    He's not useless, but neither is as useful as some of the others. I usually run a fighter/mage character. I don't NEED the lvl 3 spell slots that Garrick provides. I usually also will dual class Imoen at lvl 7 or so. Wasting spells is not a concern for me, because we can typically rest. (Quick saves are your friend.)

    Sure, bards are useful, and I always pick up Haer'Dalis in BG2. I just don't like Garrick.
    Post edited by rapsam2003 on
  • TheArtisan TheArtisan Member Posts: 3,277
    I personally love bards in BG1 because casters late game barely need to cast aside from leading with buffs and debuffs since all they need to do is spam wands given how stupidly efficient wands are in the game. Memorizing offensive spells becomes almost useless because you can deal more damage from a wand of fire or frost instead.
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    While I agree with your post @Grum I think a Mage throwing 3 Acid Darts per round will probably outdamage Garrick, these are really good in BG1 (and if the enemy is affected by Web and Greater Malison, they will suffer a world of pain).
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    I usually have Garrick using the crossbow of speed, but a returning axe works as well I guess.

    Bard's had a hard time due to equipment, especially the armor slot. Now that there is Elven Chain, they are much more versatile and one does not have to choose AC over spell casting.

    Bards ability to use wands, scrolls + their abundance in lore make them ideal to have around. They also level more quickly than mages who can be quite squishy in the early going.
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    There's also the advantage that because of a bard's faster leveling they will end up at a higher caster level than mages and cast more powerful versions of their spells.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    scriver said:

    There's also the advantage that because of a bard's faster leveling they will end up at a higher caster level than mages and cast more powerful versions of their spells.

    Especialy magic missile and chromatic orb scales well with bards. Though, an invoker will have a harder to resist chromatic orb.
  • SeldarSeldar Member Posts: 438
    Well, isn't Eldoth more interesting than Garrick (but ok Garrick is in Beregost and Eldoth in the Cloakwood) ?

    Eldoth has better stats, I remember he was a good mate for backup and long range fights
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,758
    And you have forgotten one factor. Garrick uses a awesome portrait of Cameron.

    If people doubted including Garrick into their BG1 parties up, they shouldn't now.
  • SmilingSwordSmilingSword Member Posts: 827
    It's not the fact that he is a bard that makes me hate him, it's the fact that he is Garrick. I find his voice annoying, also I don't like his face.

    Those two reasons are more than enough to not take him in my party.

    If I want a bard I will just take Eldoth. He is a huge scumbag but still far more likable than Garrick, plus he makes free poison arrows.

    I must admit to not really liking bards in my party as I find them to be a bit of mission to micro manage. I know it's really just sing, cast, shoot but I just find it annoying.
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,352
    edited April 2016
    I concur and have frequently spoken out in Garrick's defense earlier (as well as Cernd's). I too prefer him with the army scythe. On PC I've modded for unlimited stacks of ammo, but even without that it's really not that difficult to maintain a good supply of ammo even on longer travels. Just put your quick ammo slots to good use even on your party members who don't use ranged weapons and you get many more potential ammo slots.

    Ranged users never get hit (unmodded that is, the AI is just too stupid to target them) so I never bother about HP or AC on anyone 'cept melee fighters. Garrick can just as well be naked and still never die. Bolts of lightning are too good to not use!

    I also like Garrick's face and voice. I find his singing soothing during travels.
  • magisenseimagisensei Member Posts: 316
    I used Garrick for my 6th party member for one run and he was good. It was nice to use all those wands that we had gotten - imagine 3 fireballs all at once - 2 from my mages and 1 from Garrik - made short work of a lot of encounters and wow does it light by the screen.

    Having the free protection from fear was okay - although my cleric usually just casted to make sure that everyone was protected in a large encounter - better to be safe than to be goblin stew.

    Having Garrick and his abilities to use spells was also quite valuable - with Garrick and 2 mages (at 6-7th level) all firing MM, it ended a lot of tough opponents.

    For me, he fit will into the 6th slot and worked well with the team - I also gave him the crossbow with lightning and biting bolts and he participated in melee battle as well - plus its nice to be able to use all the different missile weapons in the game that I normally don't use.

    I also had Eldoth in my party during baldurs gate in order to complete his quest and he was annoying - yes his stats are better than Garrick and he makes his poison arrows but he is annoying - I left him magically poisoned (when we were magically poisoned) and removed him - perhaps it will teach him some manners; I should have feed him to the basilisk instead instead in order to free Skie from him.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    Not to mention the faster leveling than mages. Thus, his fireballs cause more damage and he shoots more magic missiles.

    And there is nothing I love more than shooting more magic missiles
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    Nothing I love more than detonating a 10th level skull trap over a group of enemy adventurers.
  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 634
    edited November 2018
    Deleted.
    Post edited by Yulaw9460 on
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    See, I'd argue that bards are substantially underrated (except skalds, who people general acknowledge as strong), but Garrick's statline is pretty terrible, and while it can be augmented, you'd generally do better augmenting someone else. The truth is, Garrick as an archer isn't much better than, say, Neera with a sling. 1 more APR, a couple points of thac0... yeah, that's better, but it's not enough better to make a significant difference in the party's damage output. So you end up with a character who's a worse spellcaster overall than the mages (although he has some advantages, as people have pointed out), and really about as squishy because he can't wear mage robes, and has terrible stats. The fact that he's slightly less useless than the mages in ranged combat hardly makes a difference. Granted, he's less terrible if you're reloading the game every time you fail to learn a spell, since his abysmal Intelligence won't come into play.

    As for his bard-specific bonuses... I mean, lore is nice, but mostly it just saves you the cost of buying identifies in town, which will make precisely zero difference by the time Garrick's lore is high enough to be a reasonable substitute. It's more useful in BG2, where dungeons are longer, but of course Garrick isn't in BG2. And bard song is okay at best. Fear immunity is the single easiest immunity in the game to come by, and the other bonuses probably aren't enough to make up for the fact that if Garrick is singing he's not shooting anything.
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,297
    bengoshi said:


    Garrick has phew stats, yes, but there're items to improve them, and there're spells, like Strength (which duration is very long).

    The spell lasts long, but it takes away a slot, though. So it is not really free. The items almost always benefit your party more on a fighter.
    bengoshi said:


    As a bard, Garrick gets better THAC0 than a mage, and in BG1 it's a golden difference. It's not just "a couple points of thac0", it's a big, big difference in BG1. A mage will use only a sling, thus he is stuck at 1 APR, while bows and the crossbow of Speed offer 2 APR. It's, again, HUGE in BG1. Also, bows and crossbows let you use all kind of arrows and bolts, of poison, of lightning, of detonation etc etc.

    The bard is a superior missile launcher, and this indeed gives him some value.
    bengoshi said:


    Yes, a mage brings magic, but in BG1 bards bring magic in their own way. The key is to use spells that progress well with levels, like Spook, Magic Missile, Chromatic Orb, Melf's Acid Arrow, Fire Arrow, Skull Trap, Fireball. These spells are plain better when casted by your 10 lvl bard than by any wizard in BG1.

    Very slightly. In the BG 1 level range, the bard will be just one level ahead. Do you really think 1d6 on your Fireball matters?

    This is unlike BG 2 where Dispel Magic from a bard rocks, if not quite as much as from an Inquisitor.

    And in the first game there are superior choices to your list: Sleep, Blindness, Web, Glitterdust, Slow, Confusion, Emotion, Chaos.
    bengoshi said:


    Add to that you can combine these spells with interesting arrows and bolts, say inficting poison on your horrored by Spook enemy, and you get the picture.

    Eh, just use darts of Wounding I guess? High APR, even for a mage.
    bengoshi said:


    The luck bonus of Garrick while he sings comes very handy in BG1, when you need any point of THAC0 you can get. If you micromanage, you can offer this bonus and read spells, use weapons, and still not lose the bonus (just click "Sing" every 6 seconds).

    This, I consider being an abuse of the engine. And frankly, too much work. A neat trick, though.
    bengoshi said:


    Also, pickpocketing! It's the way to get your Algernon's cloak not long after the start of BG1, to get the ring of free action from the Ulgoth's Beard - the cloak will make all prices much better for you, while the ring will let you freely use Webs as soon as you get them.

    If you are willing to metagame you can just as well go for potions of Masters Thievery.
    bengoshi said:


    Bards are not so popular, except for Blades, people ofter overlook their strengths. But if you know how to use a bard, he shines.

    Every class in BG is useful and worth having in your party. Garrick is still fairly weak.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    @bengoshi, I think many of your points apply better to solo characters than characters in parties, and Garrick is pretty much definitionally in a party. +1 APR is huge if you're only comparing a bard vs. a mage, but (on a bard or a mage) it's basically nothing compared to the party's total damage output. It's not a difference that really matters. A spell, on the other hand, is generally high-impact-enough to make a big difference in a large party, and even if we assume that bards and mages have equally strong spells (a strong assumption, but not an entirely unfounded one), mages get a lot more spells. Similarly, your point about the bard being better once you run out of spells seems a bit odd, given that, in situations where Garrick is being used, when both the bard and the mage run out of spells you still have the entire rest of the party (and, of course, it takes the mage longer to run out of spells).

    But again, I don't really mean to say that bards are bad. Bards have a great many real advantages that should be taken into consideration, and they do not deserve to be discounted as they so often are. But Garrick's statline is terrible and unkitted bards aren't so good that they can make up for his poor stats. Now, to your later points, I certainly don't mean to say that Garrick can't be made to work with proper augmentation. But anything can be made to work with proper augmentation. Saying "I can make him good with lots of spells and potions" doesn't strike me as a very good argument, because there is literally nothing in the game that can't be made good with lots of spells and potions. A good character is one who doesn't need a ton of additional buffs to be good.
  • alceryesalceryes Member Posts: 380
    To each his own.
    I think he complements my 'misunderstood' party (F/M/T, Dorn, Kaigan, Viconia, and Edwin) rather nicely. You can get the whistling sword and army scythe very early in the game which shores up his missile and melee nicely for the first few levels. I guess Kaigan could use the crossbow and Imoen could use the short sword but again, to each his own. I like the 'What's this?" (identify) ability, and his secondary arcane caster ability as well. He also quotes Monty Python, an added bonus!
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064
    Overall I think bards are a little weak and wish the IWDee implementation was made consistent over all the games to give them the edge that they need.
  • proghead3proghead3 Member Posts: 65
    He's usable with the army scythe and a bag full of wands, but he's still the weakest character in the game.
  • TheArtisan TheArtisan Member Posts: 3,277
    Rubbish. Eldoth is worse. Rasaad is worse. Then there are the horribly late joiners like Tiax and Skie.

    Eldoth can't even function without Gauntlets of Dexterity. Garrick's is at least high enough to forgo them and use Bracers of Archery/Gauntlets of Specialization instead.
  • dockaboomskidockaboomski Member Posts: 440
    The first time I completed the EE was with a Wizard Slayer PC, Ajantis, Yeslick, Garrick, Quayle, and Xan. Full of unloved characters and classes. I loved the combination.
  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,028
    dockaboomski said:

    The first time I completed the EE was with a Wizard Slayer PC, Ajantis, Yeslick, Garrick, Quayle, and Xan. Full of unloved characters and classes. I loved the combination.

    Ajantis and Yeslick are awesome! Just throw the Gloves of Dexterity on the former and abuse the crap out of Draw Upon Holy Might on the other, and you have godly front-liners. Plus Yeslick gets cool points for being a good dwarven companion that isn't evil or insane. I swear, they love their evil dwarves, and Khelgar is a nutcase. And doesn't Yeslick have the ol' BG1 Dispel Magic ability that just shreds through magic?

    Xan, however, yeah... I tried having him in my party once. He folded faster than should have been elvenly possible. That CON really hurts him. Even though I love the whole Enchanter thing, I don't think I'll ever bring him back into my party. At least not without an inventory full of throwing daggers.
  • magisenseimagisensei Member Posts: 316
    Rassad works well in the last part of the game - I picked him up at level 6 and he worked well. When I picked him up late I avoided all the early difficult levels of a monk - by level 6 he moves fast, he hits frequently, he can use his sun fist twice and sun ray, and I had him use darts and he threw them well. He is not a tank and won't be one until level 9 or so but he makes a good 3rd fighter in BG1. With his hide in shadow/move silently he stays mostly invisible and I had him go along with Imoen when she sneaks around providing the muscle she needs for smaller encounters.

    Has anyone actually used Tiax for an entire game? An insane cleric/thief gnome with horrible stats although in his defense he is quite funny at times.

    Skie is a bit annoying but not as much as Eldoth - I guess they deserve each other since I really wanted to feed them both to some goblins but mostly Eldoth. I think I only had them for a bit in baldurs gate before they got to annoying. Skie has more potential than Eldoth but is almost as annoying - she really is a rich spoiled daughter rebelling against her father and landing in with a horrible crowd (namely Eldoth).
  • SharguildSharguild Member Posts: 186
    I guess if Garrick wasn't so.....GARRICK I could possibly do a run with him.
    No, belay last, I'd rather have Kobolds tie me to a chair and sing me endless renditions of " in days of yore" while ripping out my toenails.....

    I have run a Bard as a Main though, both in BG1 and in IWD1. MUCH preferred the IWD run but had great fun with both. As a Main, it was a great deal easier to tailor the person (obviously) so knew what I wanted.
    Eldoth, a LONG time ago, lasted about 10 minutes in my party, exactly 8 minutes longer than Garrick did.

    oh well....
  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,028
    I don't know about kobolds tying you to a chair and singing to you, but Deekin might have a great story.

    Still, Garrick's personality could be worse. He could be Grobnar Gnomehands.
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