You MUST choose: Dexterity VS Constitution

OperativeNL

So when BG:EE comes out, I'm seriously considering rolling a paladin. One of the things that always comes to mind when thinking about a new character, are the stats to be rolled. Now, I am the kind of person who doesn't like to cheat. So CTRL+8 for "all stats to 18" is out of the question. Also, I want things to be "realistic", but not so much as that it will make me feel like I'm playing a weak character. In BG1, most NPC's are weak (attribute-wise) though in BG2 the recruitable NPCs start having higher attribute scores. I always try to get comparable scores, nothing rediciously overpowered compared to them.

Now, the 'issue' with paladins are their high requirements in areas that don't affect combat: 13 WIS and 17 CHA. I consider an INT of 8 or lower to be indicative of "unintelligent" which is not what I want my character to be, so I won't be dropping this low. This leaves me with not enough points to fully be an expert in STR, DEX _and_ CON.

So, assuming I'll roll 3 or 4 times to avoid total bad luck, and I've maxed out STR. I can choose to max out DEX (for a -4 AC bonus) or max out CON (for a +5 HP/level bonus), but not both. Dividing the points over both scores will only make both of them suck, so I think I'm better off with one of either bonus. But which one? Try and leave the magical items I could get (belts of strenght, gauntlets of dexterity) out of the question because I'll have to start from Candlekeep...

Dragonspear

I dunno what to tell you honestly. I've rolled for awhile and gotten the 18, 18, 18, 10, 13, 18 roll for a paladin before but that's not what you want.

Therefore, you have to decide if you're more worried about the early game (lower AC is much more useful at early levels when you're primarily being physically attacked and even 1 attack no matter your HP will likely chunk you), or if you're worried about mid/late game BG1 and BG2. In these games you fight a LOT of mages on top of physical attackers so health becomes MUCH more important.

From an RP perspective I think that Con is probably better than Dex. But constantly reloading early might get frustrating =/

Zwiebelchen

Constitution. Simply because you can find the dexterity gloves very early in the game that lock your dex to 18.
Other than that: It's very easy to roll good stats with a paladin - not despite of their high noncombat stats but BECAUSE of their high noncombat stats. Paladins and Rangers are the easiest classes to reach a total score of 90.

sandmanCCL

Rather than dump one or the other, work a compromise. You can easily get by with 16's in all 3 rather than max one and min the other, and I think that'd be much prefered to totally dumping one or the other.

Strength is probably the easiest of all 3 of those attributes to alter. The level 2 arcane spell "Strength" is easily one of the most useful spells in all of BG1 and eventually you get the gauntlets of Ogre Power anyway. STR boosting gear is also pretty abundant in BG2 plus by then you'll have access to some low level divine spells.

Tekrith

Better to not get hit in the first place, does make some of the low level fights dicey if you get critically hit

Amardarial

Bleh choose wrong one, max out Con, you can get Bracers of Dex 18 to make up for a lower starting Dexterity.

Awong124

Constitution only gives you bonus HP for the first 9 or 10 levels depending on your class (9 for Paladin), but the AC bonus from DEX stays with you forever. So if you're deciding between something like 10 and 18 CON, then yeah, that would be a big 36hp difference. But if you're deciding between 10 and 16 CON, that's only 18hp in the long run. The benefits of high CON diminishes as you reach higher levels.

As for getting the gloves of dexterity, that's a fair point. But you might want to give that to a party member that has low DEX, or wear other bracers yourself that could be more useful (gauntlets of ogre strength, bracers of weapon expertise, etc.). And you also don't get this item transferred over when you import to BG2, so you'll have to find them all over again.

Koson

@sandmanCCL is right, you could get by without 18 in all 3, and actually taking BG2 into consideration would make more sense to lower Str than the other 2. If you're dead set on an 18 Str and have to pick one of the other 2 to lower, I'd rather have max Dex than max Con. True you can get the Gauntlets of Dexterity quite soon and easy in BG1 (less so in BG2) but there are several NPCs who also need them badly. Having 18 Dex gives you -4 AC and better ranged THAC0 (ranged weapons are king in BG1) and frees the dex gauntlets for a NPC.

Quartz

I would normally say "dump Constitution," but since you're talking about a *warrior class,* it becomes dump Dexterity. And I know you say "don't consider gauntlets" but seriously, sorry bud those are your best bet here. Dump Dex and grab those gauntlets. Yeah you have to "start at Candlekeep" but as long as you have decent armor you won't be in too much trouble until you make your way to the Gnoll Stronghold.

But if you want to further make your PC "legit" like other NPCs, then you could distribute evenly between Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution or something if you want. Think like Khalid with 15 Str/16 Dex/17 Con.

Awong124 said:

Constitution only gives you bonus HP for the first 9 or 10 levels depending on your class (9 for Paladin), but the AC bonus from DEX stays with you forever. So if you're deciding between something like 10 and 18 CON, then yeah, that would be a big 36hp difference. But if you're deciding between 10 and 16 CON, that's only 18hp in the long run. The benefits of high CON diminishes as you reach higher levels.

Dude, he's talking about BG1. Paladins and Fighters can't even get past level 8. I don't see how this is relevant...

Awong124

If he's only concerned about BG1, then it's not really relevant. But if he plans to import into BG2, then it's completely relevant.

Quartz

Awong124 said:

If he's only concerned about BG1, then it's not really relevant. But if he plans to import into BG2, then it's completely relevant.

True enough.

Actually, I agree entirely with @sandmanCCL and @Koson. Take a hit to your strength if anything. Strength is a bitch to roll well anyway.

Fredjo

lol at the results

nemiafala

I voted constitution because I have actually played through to the end of Throne of Bhaal with a paladin who started with about 13 in both dexterity and constitution, and I kept wishing she had more hit points. Then again, she always had a shield equipped to make up for the low dexterity. If you want to use two handed weapons, dexterity might be more useful for the AC bonus.

Koson

Since there's Carsomyr waiting to be claimed in BG2 two-handed swords would be a logical weapon of choice, and there are many other good options for that weapon type both in BG1 and in BG2 until you defeat Firkraag.

Awong124

I think DEX is more important than CON, but if I had to choose between these options I would choose option B.

Option A:
18 DEX
14 CON

Option B:
16 DEX
16 CON

Shin

For one thing there's a fair amount of damage that dex/AC can't protect you from, and also high hitpoints widens your avoidance window for certain non-save spells like PW Stun and PW Kill. In my experience, the not getting hit/not taking damage concept isn't very realistic in the long run unless you play a class with access to stoneskin, pfmw, mirror image etc.

Also, in the later game 4 AC won't mean very much as you will generally get hit by most melee attacks unless extremely well protected.

Son_of_Imoen

Well, I would choose the 3rd option of choosing the middle: I'd rather have a Paladin with 16 CON and 16 DEX myself, then a Paladin with either 18 CON or 18 DEX but a 14=no bonusses for the other.

Alas I can't see the poll results by choosing an option that's not there.

For an arcane class I'd opt for the DEX=try not getting hit, as they'll need anything to buff the Armour spell or Bracers of AC 8 in the beginning of the game, but for a warrior, my opinion is compromise is best. As mentioned above, wether DEX (not getting hit) or CON (more hp to absorb damage once mages start casting Horrid Wiltings and whatsnot in BG2) matter more, depend on the stage of the game and a compromise means not getting compromised in particular parts of the game (pun intended).

The downside of relying too much on bracers for either DEX or STR is, you can't use them on an NPC who might need them more and leave your own hands free for gauntlets of weapon specialization or the bracers of blinding strike in BG2.

elminster

Constitution. Only because a Paladins only really get ac and ranged attack bonuses for having high dexterity, and a large shield and protection from evil can help to mitigate that loss until you get the gloves of dexterity.

fighter_mage_thief

If you plan to exploit your game saves to max your character's HP, go with dexterity.

If you want an experience closer to pnp and not rely too heavily on lucky rolls, go with constitution.

With 10 constitution, you could theoretically end up at level 9 with 18 HP. 36 bonus HP would really help there.

The average level 9 paladin's HP is 54 [10 + (5.5 x 8)], and it can be greatly enhanced from 36 bonus HP.

Mind you, 54 + 36 = 90, which is exactly how much base HP you'd have if you maxed your HP rolls.

There are also traps and spells that dexterity will not help you with.

A high strength and constitution just seem to go together to me.

Lastly, in pnp 2nd ed, with a high enough constitution, your minimum HP rolls are actually raised. For example, with 20 constitution, I think all of the 1s you roll count as 2s. With a higher constitution, 1s, 2s, and 3s can all count as 4s I believe. Imagine how nice that would be for a mage. Automatic maximum HP each level. The benefit is plain to see for fighter types as well, considering it substantially raises their average HP.

Debaser

@OperativeNL It's simple, you can always wear the Gauntlets of Dexterity. I know you don't want to consider them for some reason, and I know it's been brought up by other players, but they're an easy grab right after you get Minsc. (And if you're a Paladin, you are probably going to get Minsc since he's a goody two shoes kinda crazy) And the Hit Points at low levels are much more valuable than an AC bonus from DEX. It's not cheap to think about the gear you're going to get along the way in terms of strategy. Now, you won't get Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise on your PC, but they can to someone else I suppose. The main thing is the tanking a Paladin is supposed to do. You kind of need a sack of HP to get through Durlags tower for example.


Also @SandmanCCL I 100% concur with you on Strength being the obvious dump stat instead. I would always take both CON & DEX over Strength any day of the week. There are weapons, belts, spells and potions that buff Strength when you need it. Going into BG2, eventually you'll get something to buff Strength permanently and the you can use weapon expertise gauntlets for more attack bonuses.

Permidion_Stark

I prefer not getting hit to taking damage so I would always choose DEX over CON. I also think the best form of defence is attack so I would rather wear Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise (THACO +1, Damage +2) and get the most from my great sword instead of wasting the slot on Gauntlets of Dexterity.

I'd go for DEX 17 because you will eventually be able to use a tome to raise it to 18 (and the benefits of DEX 19 are negligible - just +1 to Missile Attack Adjustment). Then I would stick whatever points you have left over into CON.

But as @Dragonspear says, it is pretty easy to roll a paladin with decent stats and you can get good CON and DEX scores without having to make your paladin dumb as a box of rocks.

fighter_mage_thief

Permidion_Stark said:

I prefer not getting hit to taking damage so I would always choose DEX over CON.

If you don't plan on getting hit, you don't need Dex or Con. JK ; )

Awong124

fighter_mage_thief said:

Permidion_Stark said:

I prefer not getting hit to taking damage so I would always choose DEX over CON.

If you don't plan on getting hit, you don't need Dex or Con. JK ; )

But DEX helps you not get hit.

fighter_mage_thief

Awong124 said:

fighter_mage_thief said:

Permidion_Stark said:

I prefer not getting hit to taking damage so I would always choose DEX over CON.

If you don't plan on getting hit, you don't need Dex or Con. JK ; )

But DEX helps you not get hit.

Not against traps and spells.

LadyRhian

I'd go half and half on this. It all depends. See what you roll first, anyway. It may end up being moot if you get 18s in all three stats.

Adul

In BG1 mages are not a huge threat overall. There are a few difficult mage fights, but those can be gotten through pretty quickly utilizing some manner of tactics or just plain old perseverance. You'll spend a lot more time staring at the screen as your fighters dish out the number war with some other melee combatants. In those situations, dexterity is invaluable. Even late in the game, in ToB, having a high AC matters. There are some pretty decent melee and ranged enemies there and just 2 points of AC can mean the difference between them having a 5% or 15% chance to hit your tank.

The above means that in some situations 2 points of AC can potentially triple your survival time when under heavy fire.

Tetraploid

If you're determined to choose, I'd say take Dex. Not getting hit is a good thing. If it was me, though, I would probably try to compromise between the two (or just keep rolling!).

Moomintroll

You're going to get hit, especially by spells.

bigdogchris

HP>All

What's the point of -20 AC if you only have 1 HP

reedmilfam

In the short term, DEX. In long term, CON wins out. It's because CON is a cumulative bonus that improves with each level. DEX not so much.

ryuken87

Awong124 said:

The benefits of high CON diminishes as you reach higher levels.

So do the AC benefits from dexterity in late SoA/ToB, when enemy thac0s become high enough that AC matters less and damage resistance (therefore constitution) matters more.