BTW: with opting not to choose (that's my choice, the 17/17 option), I can't see in what way the results resemble a US election, as I don't see results, just an open poll I refuse to answer.
I chose dex since I had to choose altho frankly I would probably split the leftover points between them depending on how I was going to play the pally - straight up front liner all the time (probably sword & board) or mixed melee/ranged (two handed) depending on the battle -
rolling something in the high 80s is pretty easy with a pally since it will convert your actual roll to the minimum required for Ch and Wis and IIRC 11 int will allow you to take 2 hits from a mind flayer and survive but you won't need it until BG2 (after using the tome) so 10 works for BG1 - (after all it's a paladin - how smart could he be LOL)
88 will get you 18 str, 10 int, 13, wis, 17 cha with 30 points left for dex/con to split as you please.
uhh.... all you need is to spend 30mins rerolling over and over til you got 3 straight 18 on str dex con. It's much more easier as paladin cause you always start out high with the min requirement, less chance to get low stats save you time.
average stat in 2e is 9, so just leave it there and it shouldn't be too hard.
Constitution. Simply because you can find the dexterity gloves very early in the game that lock your dex to 18. Other than that: It's very easy to roll good stats with a paladin - not despite of their high noncombat stats but BECAUSE of their high noncombat stats. Paladins and Rangers are the easiest classes to reach a total score of 90.
Same for me,
***Warning spoilers for the new comers ***
Yo Dex guys, just go bottom left of the world map, kill the two half ogres next to the bridge on the gnoll fortress map, and you've got your gloves !
For everyone that says DEX becomes less important at high levels, that simply isn't true.
Every 1 bonus to AC is a flat 5% miss chance, regardless of level/THAC0 unless the enemy only misses on a 1. It just becomes a matter of the enemy going from a 25% to 20% chance to hit early in BG1 to going from 85% to 80% in TOB. They are still rolling the same d20, so each point is worth the same as it always was.
With sufficiently high AC, you will get hit at the minimum rate of 5% of all attacks. Get rid of the -4 AC bonus from dexterity and you will get hit 25% of the time, which means you take 5 times as much damage. Put another way, if you have a 5% chance of being hit, against an enemy with a long sword (1d8; average of 4.5 damage per hit) you will take an average of 0.225 damage per round. If you lower your AC by 4 points, you take 1.125 damage per round, or 500% more damage per round. Either way, until your enemies are so powerful that they hit the maximum AC of -10 more than 5% of the time, there is a point where an 18 dexterity increases your survival time by 500%, if you can get your AC low enough.
In ToB, most enemies will hit you far more often. If you have a 50% chance of being hit, the longsword will do 2.25 damage per round. Take away the +4 dexterity bonus, and you increase your chance of being hit to 70%, which means the sword now does 3.15 damage per round, or 40% more damage per round.
An 18 constitution, on the other hand, increases your hit points by 40% at 1st level and 73% per level thereafter on core rules, or a straight 40% per level if you play on normal difficulty. This bonus accumulates up to level 9, at which point it stops. A 9th level fighter with 18 constitution has 90 hit points while a fighter with 10 constitution has 54, so the 18 constitution gives you an 67% more hit points, which translates into 67% longer survival time. After 9th level, the percentage falls agains, falling back to 40% by level 21 and continuing to fall thereafter. On normal difficulty, the benefit of constitution is even less.
At the very beginning, if you focus on getting your AC as low as possible, dexterity will keep you safer than a high constitution. At high levels, when you are likely to get hit frequently no matter what, constitution may overtake dexterity. However, dexterity also provides other bonuses, such as missile weapon attacks.
All of this assumes, however, that the only effect of getting hit is taking damage. Once you start to add thins like paralysis or energy drain into the mix, the ability to not get hit in the first place takes on a greater importance than the ability to absorb damage.
The ideal solution is to avoid putting yourself in a position where you can get hit or take damage in the first place: don't allow enemies to attack you and you don't have to worry about how well you can withstand their attacks. (This is why it is usually better to spend a cleric's spell slot on a disabling spell than a healing one: the disabled enemy won't damage you, saving you the need to heal anyone after the fact.)
In 3/4 Edition, you must choose. Not for BG1 though. Re-Roll. CAKE and EAT IT TOO!
That's not a real choice in 3/4 edition, as you said, since with heavy armors, you cannot take advantage of AC bonus offered by Dexterity (perhaps if you wear an heavy armor and a big sword, it is useless to have more than 10 or 12 since AC bonus will not apply - yet for reflex saves it is useful).
Then, you focus on strength and constitution for your warrior.
Actually 9 INT is OK. Can still use scrolls, and once you read the Bg1 Tome and hit the Lum machine you can still tank 3 5-INT-Drain hits.
CHARNAME is a God-in-waiting and I think it's reasonable to want higher-than-NPC-average statistics and a relatively OP class/kit combo on that kid. That's how I've always played BG, anyhow.
If I REALLY had to choose, I'd pick CON and use Dex gloves. Much harder to raise your CON with items.
1) Position first in Line Con, second in Line maybe Dex (Spells, Traps,....) -> Biggest point, there are enough Mages in the Game! Time to drink a Potion vs instent Death,.. Friendlyarm Inn Map/ Nashkel Town,.... 2) Range Fighter -> Dex 16/17 (Con ~16) 18 gives no Ranged AC (Tomb at 16 Dex) 3) Schild or not,.. more Dex if not
In 3/4 Edition, you must choose. Not for BG1 though. Re-Roll. CAKE and EAT IT TOO!
Depends how you play, I now normally set a hard limit of 20 rolls (sometimes as low as 10) and take the best of those. Makes the game more if a challenge and makes you think more about how best to use spells and kit.
Anyway. Never dump CON. Hit points > everything else.
That being said, don't neglect Strength either. You can always grab Ajantis or Khalid or Yeslick, stick 'em in tank-wear, and hide behind them with a big fat two-hander.
Anyway. Never dump CON. Hit points > everything else.
That being said, don't neglect Strength either. You can always grab Ajantis or Khalid or Yeslick, stick 'em in tank-wear, and hide behind them with a big fat two-hander.
Strength is more easily boosted with gloves, spells, potions etc.
@reedmilfam Actually that's backwards, Dex will prevent more damage over the course of the series then the extra hp from Con saves your life.
While I agree that AC is worthless vs some truly hard-hitting enemies in ToB, it filters out a TON of attacks from the mooks leading up to those fights (and by then, you'll have 85% damage reduction if wielding DoEH off-hand, with AoF, and Hardiness) which means your regen from items or god forbid using the Upgraded Foebane, makes you completely impervious to damage.
Con is only worthwhile to consider for shorties. For anyone else, it's icing on the cake. If the two system shock rolls were implemented, then sure, I'd say that Con would be more important, but in terms of overall value it adds very little. A tiny bit of hp, and a slight amount more fatigue (which due to BG's lazy implementation, can be completely ignored). (the regen is only worthwhile duing BG1, which paladin's could only get if wielding that new buckler, or for brief periods using DUHM...but would still be so weak it wouldn't make any difference, meanwhile in BG2, ANY ITEM that gives regen will cancel out your Con-based regen, since only the equal regen speeds stack and only 25 Con has the potential to stack (but using Gaxx or the upgraded AotU would cancel it out).
Dex gives both AC and modifies your ranged attacks, so if you're using some of the hurled axes/daggers it'll be used instead of your str (and unless you're built properly, you don't want to go anywhere near melee against Fire giants).
CON over DEX times ten. Why? Dex gauntlets you get very early in BG1.
AC protects you from physical attacks only. HP protects you from magical damage, poison etc too. Plus those criticals WILL hurt and that Fireball/Lightning Bolt etc too.
Also, you can get regeneration in BG2 if you have 20 CON and isn't there another set of DEX gauntlets somewhere in BG2? The CON equivalent is temporary and no regen for you. And it stacks with the Ring of Gaxx (isn't that the one that gives you regen also?).
Plus, as a Paladin, you get Draw Upon Divine Might for even more AC that stacks with the DEX gauntlets. You can't do the same in BG1. No item that sets your CON to 18 permanently.
The benefits of high CON diminishes as you reach higher levels.
So do the AC benefits from dexterity in late SoA/ToB, when enemy thac0s become high enough that AC matters less and damage resistance (therefore constitution) matters more.
No taking very bad AC or extremely good THC0 aside each point of AC means 5% less chance to be hit for attacks using AC. Of course by a hit chance over 50% hp is more important because most of the enemy attacks will hit you but on the other side your high level fighter will be between 100 and 200 hp at that point anyway so the extra HP won't do that much.
But here is why con is still better. Lets say a strong enemy will hit you for around 20-30 damage, that means 18 dex gives you 4-6 less hp lost on average but only for attacks that use AC for determining hits while 18 con gives you 36 extra HP more which is a whole hit more from a strong enemy and benefits you on all attacks. Also there are the gauntlets which are very easy to get in BG1 and still easy to get in BG2.
Go Dex over Con. It makes you harder to hit at the start of the game (also allows you to use a ranged weapon, although this is useless if you choose certain kits) The hp bonus only starts to build up to a noticeable difference late in the game.
I would settle for 16/16/16 if poss. My paladins usually have very well spaced out stats. Nothing overly high. Leave Int at 9 to read scrolls.
I am adding nothing new to this thread... oh well..
@Anduin Or start with 18/xx STR, ~10 DEX, 18 CON and 18 CHA, the rest average. Rush to get the gauntlets and there you go, the best of both worlds. 18 Dex AND 18 Con. Then get the Tomes and in the end you have: 19 STR, 18 DEX, 19 CON, 16 WIS and 19 CHA.
That extra HP in the beginning is very nice and don't forget that your HP per level becomes crap after ~10 level, only 3, no matter your CON.
Otherwise he would be, 19 STR (if he maxed it), 19 DEX (Meh. Draw Upon Divine Might), 10-11 CON.
RP-wise, Paladins are strong, resilient and charismatic. They're not known to be agile.
Rather than dump one or the other, work a compromise. You can easily get by with 16's in all 3 rather than max one and min the other, and I think that'd be much prefered to totally dumping one or the other.
Strength is probably the easiest of all 3 of those attributes to alter. The level 2 arcane spell "Strength" is easily one of the most useful spells in all of BG1 and eventually you get the gauntlets of Ogre Power anyway. STR boosting gear is also pretty abundant in BG2 plus by then you'll have access to some low level divine spells.
Gauntlets of Ogre Power is for Viconia!! There can be no playthrough without her!
@Anduin A Paladin with 16 STR-DEX-CON is even less viable in my opinion and underpowered. Those stats remind me of Khalid.
And if the equipment is in the game, why not use it? At least the Paladin is very viable even without the gauntlets, since you can use the heaviest of armors and shields. Those just ensure optimal conditions for survival since if your main dies, it's game over.
I get what you're saying but the OP asked for advice, if he hasn't finished BGEE already after all this time. And CON comes first, since DEX can be taken care of with an easily obtainable item.
@Freche Absolutely. 18+ STR, 19 DEX, heaviest armor and shield and 50% MR and you got yourself a tank + archer with slings that add STR damage now. Ouch.
There's one, ONE, pair of Dex gloves in both games (unless you exploit the system, but once you start cheating, the sky's the limit), and a BUNCH of NPCs with gimp'd Dex, not to mention, you're giving up Gauntlets of Pwnage and killing the enemy before they can hit you, for less chance to be hit by mooks and bunch of wasted extra hp you'll likely never use. Unless you finished every single battle with your Con's contribution or less in HP, it's a complete waste of stat points.
The glove slot is at a premium, while Con can be replaced with a belt that can then be taken off after use and traded for a strength belt or belt of inertial barrier until your next rest.
@ZanathKariashi I would argue that CHARNAME comes first since when he dies, it's game over. So the best items go to him/her first to ensure his survival and then the others.
Why compromise your main by dumping DEX or CON and not have both at 18 with the gauntlets?
And you're talking about BG2. For BGEE you don't have such a choice. And if the CHARNAME is imported (most likely) then the choices stay, so it's not like you can switch CON with DEX, unless you remake him but no Tome bonuses for you, then. No 19 STR or 19 CHA.
Plus, after level ~10 no bonus HP for you. So you better have plenty from the first game, which is only possible with 18-19 CON. And that's permanent HP, not temporary ones you get with the Belt in BG2.
Because Con is USELESS (unless you're a shorty). It is the most useless stat in the GAME...even Charisma has more tangible benefits then Con does, which is really sad when you actually think about it.
And even if all PnP benefits were added properly, I'd still take Dex over Con, since it would also give bonus saves vs certain spells (all the same ones that have a reflexive save in 3rd edition) and reduce the DW penalty further. Con on the other hand is only useful when polymorphed or being restored from petrification and we all know how often THAT happens (and polymorph:Self and shapechange specifically says you don't have to roll system shock for it), and determining if you can be resurrected or not (a non-issue for the Bhaalspawn, since he suffers an instant game over from most things), and at 19+, a VERY minor save bonus vs poisons (and the regen would be 10x slower then it currently is, making it even less useful).
Though ultimately it depends on your playstyle, if you're a fail player, then all 25s isn't going to help you. If you're good then Dex is better....if you're a newb...Dex is still better, because it increases your effective hp by...just in BG1...around...~12000 or so in damage you didn't take. If you're REALLY good, you can go through the whole game with all 10's, with ease, carry weight being your primary gripe. Yes, at lvl 1-3 Con is a little better since most enemies can 1 one shot you on a lucky hit, but after that Dex becomes infinitely more useful.
Comments
rolling something in the high 80s is pretty easy with a pally since it will convert your actual roll to the minimum required for Ch and Wis and IIRC 11 int will allow you to take 2 hits from a mind flayer and survive but you won't need it until BG2 (after using the tome) so 10 works for BG1 - (after all it's a paladin - how smart could he be LOL)
88 will get you 18 str, 10 int, 13, wis, 17 cha with 30 points left for dex/con to split as you please.
average stat in 2e is 9, so just leave it there and it shouldn't be too hard.
***Warning spoilers for the new comers ***
Yo Dex guys, just go bottom left of the world map, kill the two half ogres next to the bridge on the gnoll fortress map, and you've got your gloves !
In ToB, most enemies will hit you far more often. If you have a 50% chance of being hit, the longsword will do 2.25 damage per round. Take away the +4 dexterity bonus, and you increase your chance of being hit to 70%, which means the sword now does 3.15 damage per round, or 40% more damage per round.
An 18 constitution, on the other hand, increases your hit points by 40% at 1st level and 73% per level thereafter on core rules, or a straight 40% per level if you play on normal difficulty. This bonus accumulates up to level 9, at which point it stops. A 9th level fighter with 18 constitution has 90 hit points while a fighter with 10 constitution has 54, so the 18 constitution gives you an 67% more hit points, which translates into 67% longer survival time. After 9th level, the percentage falls agains, falling back to 40% by level 21 and continuing to fall thereafter. On normal difficulty, the benefit of constitution is even less.
At the very beginning, if you focus on getting your AC as low as possible, dexterity will keep you safer than a high constitution. At high levels, when you are likely to get hit frequently no matter what, constitution may overtake dexterity. However, dexterity also provides other bonuses, such as missile weapon attacks.
All of this assumes, however, that the only effect of getting hit is taking damage. Once you start to add thins like paralysis or energy drain into the mix, the ability to not get hit in the first place takes on a greater importance than the ability to absorb damage.
The ideal solution is to avoid putting yourself in a position where you can get hit or take damage in the first place: don't allow enemies to attack you and you don't have to worry about how well you can withstand their attacks. (This is why it is usually better to spend a cleric's spell slot on a disabling spell than a healing one: the disabled enemy won't damage you, saving you the need to heal anyone after the fact.)
Then, you focus on strength and constitution for your warrior.
(NWN 1 & 2 wise based, of course).
Actually 9 INT is OK. Can still use scrolls, and once you read the Bg1 Tome and hit the Lum machine you can still tank 3 5-INT-Drain hits.
CHARNAME is a God-in-waiting and I think it's reasonable to want higher-than-NPC-average statistics and a relatively OP class/kit combo on that kid. That's how I've always played BG, anyhow.
If I REALLY had to choose, I'd pick CON and use Dex gloves. Much harder to raise your CON with items.
Time to drink a Potion vs instent Death,.. Friendlyarm Inn Map/ Nashkel Town,....
2) Range Fighter -> Dex 16/17 (Con ~16) 18 gives no Ranged AC (Tomb at 16 Dex)
3) Schild or not,.. more Dex if not
Anyway. Never dump CON. Hit points > everything else.
That being said, don't neglect Strength either. You can always grab Ajantis or Khalid or Yeslick, stick 'em in tank-wear, and hide behind them with a big fat two-hander.
While I agree that AC is worthless vs some truly hard-hitting enemies in ToB, it filters out a TON of attacks from the mooks leading up to those fights (and by then, you'll have 85% damage reduction if wielding DoEH off-hand, with AoF, and Hardiness) which means your regen from items or god forbid using the Upgraded Foebane, makes you completely impervious to damage.
Con is only worthwhile to consider for shorties. For anyone else, it's icing on the cake. If the two system shock rolls were implemented, then sure, I'd say that Con would be more important, but in terms of overall value it adds very little. A tiny bit of hp, and a slight amount more fatigue (which due to BG's lazy implementation, can be completely ignored). (the regen is only worthwhile duing BG1, which paladin's could only get if wielding that new buckler, or for brief periods using DUHM...but would still be so weak it wouldn't make any difference, meanwhile in BG2, ANY ITEM that gives regen will cancel out your Con-based regen, since only the equal regen speeds stack and only 25 Con has the potential to stack (but using Gaxx or the upgraded AotU would cancel it out).
Dex gives both AC and modifies your ranged attacks, so if you're using some of the hurled axes/daggers it'll be used instead of your str (and unless you're built properly, you don't want to go anywhere near melee against Fire giants).
AC protects you from physical attacks only. HP protects you from magical damage, poison etc too. Plus those criticals WILL hurt and that Fireball/Lightning Bolt etc too.
Also, you can get regeneration in BG2 if you have 20 CON and isn't there another set of DEX gauntlets somewhere in BG2? The CON equivalent is temporary and no regen for you. And it stacks with the Ring of Gaxx (isn't that the one that gives you regen also?).
Plus, as a Paladin, you get Draw Upon Divine Might for even more AC that stacks with the DEX gauntlets.
You can't do the same in BG1. No item that sets your CON to 18 permanently.
But here is why con is still better. Lets say a strong enemy will hit you for around 20-30 damage, that means 18 dex gives you 4-6 less hp lost on average but only for attacks that use AC for determining hits while 18 con gives you 36 extra HP more which is a whole hit more from a strong enemy and benefits you on all attacks. Also there are the gauntlets which are very easy to get in BG1 and still easy to get in BG2.
I would settle for 16/16/16 if poss. My paladins usually have very well spaced out stats. Nothing overly high. Leave Int at 9 to read scrolls.
I am adding nothing new to this thread... oh well..
Or start with 18/xx STR, ~10 DEX, 18 CON and 18 CHA, the rest average.
Rush to get the gauntlets and there you go, the best of both worlds. 18 Dex AND 18 Con.
Then get the Tomes and in the end you have: 19 STR, 18 DEX, 19 CON, 16 WIS and 19 CHA.
That extra HP in the beginning is very nice and don't forget that your HP per level becomes crap after ~10 level, only 3, no matter your CON.
Otherwise he would be, 19 STR (if he maxed it), 19 DEX (Meh. Draw Upon Divine Might), 10-11 CON.
RP-wise, Paladins are strong, resilient and charismatic. They're not known to be agile.
A Paladin with 16 STR-DEX-CON is even less viable in my opinion and underpowered. Those stats remind me of Khalid.
And if the equipment is in the game, why not use it? At least the Paladin is very viable even without the gauntlets, since you can use the heaviest of armors and shields. Those just ensure optimal conditions for survival since if your main dies, it's game over.
I get what you're saying but the OP asked for advice, if he hasn't finished BGEE already after all this time.
And CON comes first, since DEX can be taken care of with an easily obtainable item.
Absolutely. 18+ STR, 19 DEX, heaviest armor and shield and 50% MR and you got yourself a tank + archer with slings that add STR damage now. Ouch.
The glove slot is at a premium, while Con can be replaced with a belt that can then be taken off after use and traded for a strength belt or belt of inertial barrier until your next rest.
I would argue that CHARNAME comes first since when he dies, it's game over. So the best items go to him/her first to ensure his survival and then the others.
Why compromise your main by dumping DEX or CON and not have both at 18 with the gauntlets?
And you're talking about BG2. For BGEE you don't have such a choice. And if the CHARNAME is imported (most likely) then the choices stay, so it's not like you can switch CON with DEX, unless you remake him but no Tome bonuses for you, then. No 19 STR or 19 CHA.
Plus, after level ~10 no bonus HP for you. So you better have plenty from the first game, which is only possible with 18-19 CON.
And that's permanent HP, not temporary ones you get with the Belt in BG2.
And even if all PnP benefits were added properly, I'd still take Dex over Con, since it would also give bonus saves vs certain spells (all the same ones that have a reflexive save in 3rd edition) and reduce the DW penalty further. Con on the other hand is only useful when polymorphed or being restored from petrification and we all know how often THAT happens (and polymorph:Self and shapechange specifically says you don't have to roll system shock for it), and determining if you can be resurrected or not (a non-issue for the Bhaalspawn, since he suffers an instant game over from most things), and at 19+, a VERY minor save bonus vs poisons (and the regen would be 10x slower then it currently is, making it even less useful).
Though ultimately it depends on your playstyle, if you're a fail player, then all 25s isn't going to help you. If you're good then Dex is better....if you're a newb...Dex is still better, because it increases your effective hp by...just in BG1...around...~12000 or so in damage you didn't take. If you're REALLY good, you can go through the whole game with all 10's, with ease, carry weight being your primary gripe. Yes, at lvl 1-3 Con is a little better since most enemies can 1 one shot you on a lucky hit, but after that Dex becomes infinitely more useful.
Since when are at least +40 HP useless? (18 CON = +4 HP on level up x 10). That's without having a penalty since it's useless.
By the way, Sarevok at the end of ToB has 168 HP in my game, with 18 CON and random HP. You're saying that 1/4 of his HP is useless. I would disagree.