Help me ponder on summons!

Skatan

Hello!

I like to ponder on different builds, more than actually playing the game. After reaching HLA's with a cleric recently and starting to sommuning devas, it go me thinking, what is the absolute maximum number of summons one character can have at the same time?

I know there are a couple of you out there who knows pretty much anything and everything about this game, so instead of me doing my own research (I'm not lazy, I just have too few gaming hours nowadays to try out everything myself!) I'd thought I would ask in here.

My initial thoughts are that a C/I should be able to summon a shitload of critters, as well as, HLA summons. He/She could then also buff them up and send them forth and just stand back and watch the chaos. Is the C/I the best summoner or will ie a druid be better?

Also, when thinking about this I came up with a quite absurd CHARNAME concept, the "blademaster"; a guy who summons swords to do his bidding. We got Ras, the dancing sword. We got Spectral Brand's dancing blade. We got mordenkainen's swords of course. What is the maximum number of 'dancing' swords one can have at one time? If it's a cleric/thief with UAI, then I guess once could use blade barrier as well for even more blades in the air. I've never taken a cleric/thief up to HLA's though, so not sure if that'll work.

Edit: I wrote this in a hurry, dunno what the hell I was thinking when I wrote the last part about a cleric/thief; they obviously can't summon mordenkainen's :P

Cheers!
/Skat.

Moonheart

Skatan said:

I like to ponder on different builds, more than actually playing the game. After reaching HLA's with a cleric recently and starting to sommuning devas, it go me thinking, what is the absolute maximum number of summons one character can have at the same time?

5

That's even more than a maximum per character, the whole party can't have more than 5 summons active at anytime (unless you play on an old, non-updated version of BG2)

Skatan said:

My initial thoughts are that a C/I should be able to summon a shitload of critters, as well as, HLA summons. He/She could then also buff them up and send them forth and just stand back and watch the chaos. Is the C/I the best summoner or will ie a druid be better?

The best summoner is the Sorcerer.
He can renew the killed summons much more often than any other character, and not being multiclassed give him access to high level summons earlier. The only time a class can do better than a Sorcerer is during the short time where a simple Cleric can summon three Skeleton Warriors at once, but the Sorcerer doesn't have yet access to Mordenkanein's Sword

Skatan said:

Also, when thinking about this I came up with a quite absurd CHARNAME concept, the "blademaster"; a guy who summons swords to do his bidding. We got Ras, the dancing sword. We got Spectral Brand's dancing blade. We got mordenkainen's swords of course. What is the maximum number of 'dancing' swords one can have at one time? If it's a cleric/thief with UAI, then I guess once could use blade barrier as well for even more blades in the air. I've never taken a cleric/thief up to HLA's though, so not sure if that'll work.

This is not an absurd idea.
It's actualy even my 3rd character on my "I want to do a playthrough with that someday"... just after my "Children of Fire" and my "Pinky and the Brain" current playthroughs

I'm unsure if the Dancing Blade counts toward the 5 summons limit... but the main idea of my character is to start the fights like that:
- Chain Contingency > On enemy sighted > Mordenkanein's Sword x3
- Simulacrum
- Dancing Blade x2 (one from the original, one from the Simulacrum)
- Switch on Firetooth +3, sending even more blades in the air

You have to plan a bit a counter against Death Spell however, as it is the only true bane of Mordenkanein's Swords

Skatan

Moonheart said:

Skatan said:

I like to ponder on different builds, more than actually playing the game. After reaching HLA's with a cleric recently and starting to sommuning devas, it go me thinking, what is the absolute maximum number of summons one character can have at the same time?

5

That's even more than a maximum per character, the whole party can't have more than 5 summons active at anytime (unless you play on an old, non-updated version of BG2)

I actually never really bothered with summons, 'cept some skeletons every know and then (and seldom more than 3 at the same time). Does ALL summons, like the dancing blade for example, count towards that same 5 max? Including Kittix, the golem from the manual, the warrior, etc?

Edit: Wow, I'm really not at my best today, haha! You literally just wrote this above "I'm unsure if the Dancing Blade counts toward the 5 summons limit... but the main idea of my character is to start the fights like that:" :P

Moonheart

Well, at the start, the idea that crossed my mind about such a character was to make an adaptation of the manga character "Archer" from "Fate/Stay Night"



The problem is: Bows sucks in BG2
The lack of bonus coming from the strength make bows gimped compared to any throwing weapon. A basic companion with the Gesen Bow will shoot for 3-4 damage per arrow, while someone with Firetooth +3 will easily strike at 14-15 per hit

Even the Archer kit does not change this, since a Kensai using throwing weapons will still utterly crush the Archer in term of damage, and the Kensai can dual to a mage, while an Archer cannot.

That character of "Archer" as also a dual-wield ability... but considering BG2 battlesystem, what is the point to summon Mordenkanein's Swords if it is to go to the melee after that and expose yourself?
Those summons are marvels if you let them tank, and hammer the oppoenent from distance after that.




SSSSSSSSSSOOOOO currently, the most interesting plan I got about a "blademaster", like you call it, is a Wizard Slayer 13/Mage.

Why Wizard Slayer?
The only thing that can destroy Mordenkanein's Swords are spellcasters. But a spellcaster have a lot of trouble to cast anything when a Wizard Slayer spam throwing daggers at him, which creates a kind of combo between the caster and his summons

Aewyrven

As moon heart said... you get 5 summons...

As for how to use em.....

It's kinda... fight dependant... or if you are solo or your class and party makeup... ect...

In shadows of amn. ..

Cernd or jahira fire elementals
Edwin aerie nalia 1x invisible stalker and 1x nishruu
Viconia and anomen i think can pull it...fire up the Ariel servant (air elemental)
Depending on CHARNAME Class you can do any of the above or deva/fallen deva, or just charge in with gww.

You can also get Kithix and zerk horn early which do count towards your summon max of 5 so don't go too crazy.

Heck throw a pit fiend via gate in ahead of ya to have fun.

Tbh though MOST of the fights are going to nuke your summons off the hop with a death spell or be so short that by the time you get everything Summoned the fight is over.. Plus you are going to be able to just power through them without the summons.

Skatan

Is the max 5 summons possible to disable somehow? @subtledoctor, you seem to know a great deal about modding, do you know?

JuliusBorisov

https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/48165/testers-wanted-tweaks-is-dead-long-live-tweaks/
has a Remove Summoning Cap component.

Moonheart

Well, I still cannot use mods, so my answer are all focused on the vanilla version.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Moonheart

Because installing mods on Android is an hassle.
But this is Skatan who asked how to remove this limit, so my case in irrelevant.



Having played heavily with summons in my wild magic playthrough, I'll however say that there is absolutly no true use to remove this limit, @Skatan

Summoning have diminishing returns: the more you bring on the battlefield, the more they hinder each other moves, and opportunities to attack... By the time you kill an opponent summoning an infinite amount of summons, you will have killed it three times just summoning a few to serve as a barrier, and attack the said opponent from your safe position far behind them.

Also, if you waste a lot of spells making unefficient summoning, and get hit by a Death Spell, you could find yourself in trouble due to a shortage of summoning spells of the right level after that.
Summoning weaklings as a replacement will do no good by ToB.



So... honestly, I won't ever bother to remove this limit at your place.

Diomedes33

Just summon 5 skeleton warriors, haste them, send them off the screen toward the bad guys and watch the EXP pile up

Moonheart

I don't know why people are so obsessed about skeleton warriors. Mordenkanein's Swords are vastly superior.

TheArtisan

Comparing a 3rd level priest spell to a 7th level wizard spell. Ok.

Moonheart

Well, you're free to use Magic Missile during all the game if you want to, @Artemius_I, if you think it's stupid to compare low level spells with higer level ones.

Sids1188

Haven't used Mords much, but skeles are great for their magic resistances. Send a few in amongst a horde of mages, and they'll still be there hacking away after the mantles, wiltings, mazes and all there rest are gone.

Ammar

Moonheart said:

Well, you're free to use Magic Missile during all the game if you want to, @Artemius_I, if you think it's stupid to compare low level spells with higer level ones.

It is a good point, though. Sleep is also a great spell even though there is Emotion later.

You get the skellies earlier and you will have more spell slots for them.

lunar

Improved hasted planetar can solo most of SoA, and is the undisputed king of summons. But even the lowliest summons like a wild dog or kobold can serve as a distraction for a terrible foe, although very momentarily.

Efreets are useful summons, as well. They do nice melee damage, can stall enemies by turning gasous form and has some nice fire spells to devastate opponents. Efreet bottle is one of the best items that is used regularly even deep into ToB.

One drow ambush in the main area of Underdark gave me quite a headache, thanks to scs the drows were super annoying. Decimated my under-equipped, under leveled party. So I gated in a cacofiend or two off-screen, by using reckless dweomer, and they wasted all of their potent spells and hps to fight them off. Made the fight quite easier for me.

Moonheart

Ammar said:

It is a good point, though. Sleep is also a great spell even though there is Emotion later.

You get the skellies earlier and you will have more spell slots for them.

I don't say they are bad. I say that you don't have a motive to use them for 80% of the game, because at after 20% of the content you got better, and thus, I don't see the point to ALWAYS speak about them.

Tenrecc

Moonheart said:

Ammar said:

It is a good point, though. Sleep is also a great spell even though there is Emotion later.

You get the skellies earlier and you will have more spell slots for them.

I don't say they are bad. I say that you don't have a motive to use them for 80% of the game, because at after 20% of the content you got better, and thus, I don't see the point to ALWAYS speak about them.

20% content? Casting 7th level spells require you to get 1.5M exp at least if you're running a pure caster.

If you consider the spell level and accessibility of summons in the game, Skeleton Warriors are easily superior to Mordenkainens, and probably the best summon in the game, which is why people mention it so often.

Moonheart

The game give enough xp to cap 6 characters at 8M xp, so 48M xp... 1.5M is only 3% of this total, so even if the xp is slower at the start, and if you take 1-2 companion with you through the undersdark, yes, you should reach the level 7 wizard spell by 20% of the content

Knowing that a summoner mage needs no companion at all... 2 companions is truly a crowd

Skatan

Which are the best of the "not best" summons then? If we DON'T talk about skeletons or any HLA summon like devas and planetars, which of all the other summons are the best?

There's genies, cacofiends, stalkers, monsters, spiders and a plethora of other summons. Personally I never use any summons except skellies and HLA's! Sure, I've used the wand of monster summoning, but practically never gated in anything. One exception though, I use summoned nymphs alot on druids.

Tenrecc

Moonheart said:

The game give enough xp to cap 6 characters at 8M xp, so 48M xp... 1.5M is only 3% of this total, so even if the xp is slower at the start, and if you take 1-2 companion with you through the undersdark, yes, you should reach the level 7 wizard spell by 20% of the content

Knowing that a summoner mage needs no companion at all... 2 companions is truly a crowd

Which could've been true if you ran into enemies granting 50k exp right off the bat, but you don't. 1.5M is what you reach approximately halfway through the second game, so it's more like a 75-25 split than a 20-80.

Skatan said:

Which are the best of the "not best" summons then? If we DON'T talk about skeletons or any HLA summon like devas and planetars, which of all the other summons are the best?

There's genies, cacofiends, stalkers, monsters, spiders and a plethora of other summons. Personally I never use any summons except skellies and HLA's! Sure, I've used the wand of monster summoning, but practically never gated in anything. One exception though, I use summoned nymphs alot on druids.

Well, after Skeletons and Planetars, Mordenkainens are the obvious answer. Those three are on a completely different level than any other summon in the game. Actually, Mordenkainen could be argued to be the best summon in the game, since it's immune to almost everything and a lot of otherwise difficult fights can be won by just sending in a few of these.

Discounting those, I enjoy Spiders and Nymphs most I think. Both are weak, as opposed to skeletons and mordenkainens who have their resistances as their best stat, but they're tactically useful. Spiders are great against casters, Phase can poison them and Sword has 5 APR, so either are a pain in the ass against stoneskin. Nymphs on the other hand have several auto-cast CCs which they use efficiently, as well as a mass-heal.

Spiders and Nymphs are best used in a conjunction with skeletons though. It's like the holy trinity of RPGs. Skeletons are tanks, spiders are damage dealers, nympths are supports/healers. (And Planetars are cheaters).

Truth to be told, I havn't been using summons too much outside of them though. Most of the other summons suffer from having way better summons close to their level. "Gate" demons, for example, are complete trash compared to any HLA summons, and Wyverns, Genis, Cacofiends and Stalkers are all level 6-7 spells, meaning they have to compete with Mordenkainens, which they really can't.

My current LoB run might change that though, since I'm trying out all the summons to test their newgained strength. For a guy who usually plays with fairly few summons outsides of Planetars, it's definitely fun to be forced into a new playstyle.

Skatan said:

I actually never really bothered with summons, 'cept some skeletons every know and then (and seldom more than 3 at the same time). Does ALL summons, like the dancing blade for example, count towards that same 5 max? Including Kittix, the golem from the manual, the warrior, etc?

All summons counts towards that 5 max limit yes, including the ones from items.

Simulacrums, however, doesn't, since they're "illusions" and not "summons". I think the same is true for all other illusionary beings such as Misleads and Projected Images. I can't say for sure though, Simulacrums are the only ones I have tested myself in the current EE build of the game.

Sids1188

Nishruu and Hakeshar are pretty beastly against mages as long as you don't intend on looting them afterwards.

Moonheart

Tenrecc said:

Moonheart said:

The game give enough xp to cap 6 characters at 8M xp, so 48M xp... 1.5M is only 3% of this total, so even if the xp is slower at the start, and if you take 1-2 companion with you through the undersdark, yes, you should reach the level 7 wizard spell by 20% of the content

Knowing that a summoner mage needs no companion at all... 2 companions is truly a crowd

Which could've been true if you ran into enemies granting 50k exp right off the bat, but you don't. 1.5M is what you reach approximately halfway through the second game, so it's more like a 75-25 split than a 20-80.

We are on the BG2 subforum, so I only speak of that game, and not of the first one

Now, I have wrote 3 playthrough that you can check if you don't believe me, in which, for each one, I rushed the chapter 2 only doing the minimal amount of content in it (most often, just the Planar Sphere), and each time, I got the level 7 spells before even entering the Underdark... that leaves me:
- all the chapters 5, 6, 7
- almost all the sidequests
- all the companion subquests
- all WK
- all TOB
... to do with the level 7 spells at my disposal

Is it truly 50% of BG2 for you? For me, it's 70 if not 80%

Tenrecc

Moonheart said:

We are on the BG2 subforum, so I only speak of that game, and not of the first one

Well, there's no overarching "Baldur's Gate" forum. But okay, that explains your position a bit more.

Moonheart said:

Now, I have wrote 3 playthrough that you can check if you don't believe me, in which, for each one, I rushed the chapter 2 only doing the minimal amount of content in it (most often, just the Planar Sphere), and each time, I got the level 7 spells before even entering the Underdark... that leaves me:
- all the chapters 5, 6, 7
- almost all the sidequests
- all the companion subquests
- all WK
- all TOB
... to do with the level 7 spells at my disposal

Is it truly 50% of BG2 for you? For me, it's 70 if not 80%

Well, okay. Let's put it like this. If the question we were discussing were "What is the strongest summon, skeleton warriors or mordenkainens, for a solo sorcerer running BG2 only?" then you are 100% correct. For a sorcerer, Skeleton Warriors are level 5 summon and Mordenkainen 7, and Mordenkainen are much stronger than just 2 levels above.

However, what we were discussing was your original statement; "I don't know why people are so obsessed about skeleton warriors. Mordenkanein's Swords are vastly superior."

We're talking about "people." Not you. Not a solo sorcer running BG2 only. Because believe it or not, that is not how a majority of playthroughs looks like. Most people doesn't play solo sorcerers in BG2 only exclusively, if much at all. Many people might have done it once or twice, but it's definitely not such a common occurance that it by any stretch of the imagination can be assumed to be the standard.

Now, in most playthroughs, people have access to Skeleton Warriors for a much bigger portion of the game than Mordenkainens. And they are both really strong, borderlining OP summons considering their resistance and tanking capabilities. But because people use them a whole lot more, skeleton warriors come quicker to people's mind when discussing the strongest summon.

So basically, the answer to your question, why people are obsessed with skeleton warriors over mordenkaninen, is: "Because they don't play solo sorcs in BG2 only."

I think we can put this discussion to rest with this, yes? It was a very unecessary topic anyway. I was mostly curious as to how you came up with that 20-80 split, but I've gotten my answer, and I'm pretty sure you've gotten your answer as well.

Moonheart

*sigh* I have my answer, I just find it is an answer that completly ignore the context of the discussion, which was: BG2, blademaster

Diomedes33

When you dont feel like memorizing Negative Plane Protection... Summon Skeleton!

Tenrecc

Moonheart said:

*sigh* I have my answer, I just find it is an answer that completly ignore the context of the discussion, which was: BG2, blademaster

How was that ever the context? The title of the thread is "help me ponder on summons" and the OP wrote about wondering what summoner was the strongest and general things about summoning. The blademaster character was just a note, he also mentioned C/Is, and never once did he even mention it was BG2 exclusive, a solo run, or something about sorcerers.

Moonheart

Each thread in a forum starts with a default context which is the one of the forum section it is posted in.
i.e. for this thread, the default context is BG2.

The thread author is for all other matter the one who decide the context, this is that person's needs/concerns/questions which are the causes of the appearance the topic. He can at any moment add a precision about that context, like if the topic extends outside the default context, or if the topic narrows on specific cases he had in mind but forgot to mention first.

The other writers should not try to assume they can extend the topic, because they are not into the mind of the thread author, and thus, could lead the discussion to become hairwire if they do.

The author has given a precision about what he has in mind, that was a "blademaster". Perhaps he want also to persue the talk about other kind of summoners, but he is the one to tell... not you.
The author has given no precision about the fact he wanted the discussion extend to BG1. Perhaps he want also to talk about it, but once again, he is the one to tell... not you.

Skatan

Tenrecc said:

Moonheart said:

*sigh* I have my answer, I just find it is an answer that completly ignore the context of the discussion, which was: BG2, blademaster

How was that ever the context? The title of the thread is "help me ponder on summons" and the OP wrote about wondering what summoner was the strongest and general things about summoning. The blademaster character was just a note, he also mentioned C/Is, and never once did he even mention it was BG2 exclusive, a solo run, or something about sorcerers.

FYI - I was talking specifically about BG2 and posted in this section by choice.

Skatan

Moonheart said:

The author has given a precision about what he has in mind, that was a "blademaster". Perhaps he want also to persue the talk about other kind of summoners, but he is the one to tell... not you.
The author has given no precision about the fact he wanted the discussion extend to BG1. Perhaps he want also to talk about it, but once again, he is the one to tell... not you.

I was a bit tired and stressed when writing the OP, so I am not suprised if the topic came out a bit blurry and unfocused. I should have written it more "open" to get the discussion going, perhaps even a poll with "who's the best summoner" and then let people discuss who and why they believe A is better than B etc.

Still, with that said, I think there were quite alot of interresting replies.