Honest discussion about Legacy of Bhaal
Gotural
Member Posts: 1,229
Hello my fellow forumites
The patch v2.0 (and v2.1) has been out for a few weeks now and a few threads about the LoB mode were already created, containing a lot of speculations and many advices to defeat it. We even have a thread dedicated to powergaming in LoB mode.
But today I would like to open a discussion about what does this difficulty setting truly does and the gaming experience it creates.
First, a reminder of what LoB does:
enemies' HP * 3 + 80
-5 to saves (?)
-5 to THAC0 (?)
+12 levels for some checks
+ 1 APR (?)
Summons' HP * 2 + 20
So as you can see, these changes are mirroring the Heart of Fury mode from Icewind Dale (except for summons) but so far most players including myself don't exactly know what it does. I searched on the internet on many sites and asked in different threads in the Road to v2.0 back then and I was not able to find a strict, precise definition of the Legacy of Bhaal mode. This is I think a minor problem in itself but let's continue forward.
Here I'm quoting the official Siege of Dragonspear website :
"Legacy of Bhaal Mode : A difficulty setting offering tactical challenges only the most skilled of players can hope to defeat"
This appears on the website since the extension's announcement.
But is it true?
In my opinion, the Legacy of Bhaal mode doesn't offer any "tactical" challenges, it just increases the HP of your enemies by a enormous amount and that's it mostly.
It slows the game down and doesn't change the gameplay experience in a good way to my mind.
Though I agree that it offers some challenges. Of course a Dragon with 530 HP instead of 150 HP is stronger and thus the game is harder, depending on your party setup it can be a lot more difficult or it can simply be longer.
But is this kind of difficulty setting fun? Do you really enjoy fighting 83HP rats in Candlekeep?
Put in another way, do you think the Legacy of Bhaal mode is an interesting and fun difficulty setting?
Because I think it isn't, and to be honest, when I look back at the quote I posted above, I think the developers were actually thinking of something completely different when they first thought of the Legacy of Bhaal.
Maybe they were thinking about a "super-SCS" mode, which could explain the "tactical" challenges that only the most "skilled" players could hope to defeat, but because of time restrictions, they gave up and instead replicated the Heart of Fury difficulty in Baldur's Gate.
Another reason I think the LoB mode was originally designed as an improved SCS is because of the Insane difficulty changes in SoD. As you may know, moving the difficulty slider in SoD actually change the number of enemies spawning during battles, including new foes (like a caster in a group of fighters) which does offer new tactical challenges!
I think this is really good and a lot better than simply buffing enemies' stats to the point they don't make any sense whatsoever in a D&D setting.
So I would also like to ask Beamdog another question: is the Legacy of Bhaal mode final? Will it receive others updates or will it stay like this?
Because if it is going to get some more love, then it's excellent and I'm eager to see what you have in store for us.
But if that's not the case, no big deal. But I would like to know about the community's opinion about it and what do you think is an interesting difficulty setting.
Have a nice day!
PS: I apologize for my English, especially as I wrote all of this on my phone.
The patch v2.0 (and v2.1) has been out for a few weeks now and a few threads about the LoB mode were already created, containing a lot of speculations and many advices to defeat it. We even have a thread dedicated to powergaming in LoB mode.
But today I would like to open a discussion about what does this difficulty setting truly does and the gaming experience it creates.
First, a reminder of what LoB does:
enemies' HP * 3 + 80
-5 to saves (?)
-5 to THAC0 (?)
+12 levels for some checks
+ 1 APR (?)
Summons' HP * 2 + 20
So as you can see, these changes are mirroring the Heart of Fury mode from Icewind Dale (except for summons) but so far most players including myself don't exactly know what it does. I searched on the internet on many sites and asked in different threads in the Road to v2.0 back then and I was not able to find a strict, precise definition of the Legacy of Bhaal mode. This is I think a minor problem in itself but let's continue forward.
Here I'm quoting the official Siege of Dragonspear website :
"Legacy of Bhaal Mode : A difficulty setting offering tactical challenges only the most skilled of players can hope to defeat"
This appears on the website since the extension's announcement.
But is it true?
In my opinion, the Legacy of Bhaal mode doesn't offer any "tactical" challenges, it just increases the HP of your enemies by a enormous amount and that's it mostly.
It slows the game down and doesn't change the gameplay experience in a good way to my mind.
Though I agree that it offers some challenges. Of course a Dragon with 530 HP instead of 150 HP is stronger and thus the game is harder, depending on your party setup it can be a lot more difficult or it can simply be longer.
But is this kind of difficulty setting fun? Do you really enjoy fighting 83HP rats in Candlekeep?
Put in another way, do you think the Legacy of Bhaal mode is an interesting and fun difficulty setting?
Because I think it isn't, and to be honest, when I look back at the quote I posted above, I think the developers were actually thinking of something completely different when they first thought of the Legacy of Bhaal.
Maybe they were thinking about a "super-SCS" mode, which could explain the "tactical" challenges that only the most "skilled" players could hope to defeat, but because of time restrictions, they gave up and instead replicated the Heart of Fury difficulty in Baldur's Gate.
Another reason I think the LoB mode was originally designed as an improved SCS is because of the Insane difficulty changes in SoD. As you may know, moving the difficulty slider in SoD actually change the number of enemies spawning during battles, including new foes (like a caster in a group of fighters) which does offer new tactical challenges!
I think this is really good and a lot better than simply buffing enemies' stats to the point they don't make any sense whatsoever in a D&D setting.
So I would also like to ask Beamdog another question: is the Legacy of Bhaal mode final? Will it receive others updates or will it stay like this?
Because if it is going to get some more love, then it's excellent and I'm eager to see what you have in store for us.
But if that's not the case, no big deal. But I would like to know about the community's opinion about it and what do you think is an interesting difficulty setting.
Have a nice day!
PS: I apologize for my English, especially as I wrote all of this on my phone.
11
Comments
LoB does exactly what it says on the tin: it makes combat more tactical. You are forced into actually using the arsenal of abilities at your disposal, whereas a veteran player could easily steamroll Insane by simply right-click-attacking with buffed Fighter hybrids, without ever worrying much about using 95% of skills and spells in the game. In LoB (+SCS etc.) this doesn't work, and is a recipe for disaster. Enemies actually hit hard and for a long time, buffs run out while the fight is still running, mages get off more than one spell before folding like laundry, etc. Definitely a marked and noticeable increase in enjoyment on my part.
All that being said, I can definitely see how people would NOT like LoB. BG1 in particular must be quite the slog (as IWD is at early levels). Also modding really is almost mandatory to make things fun and a challenge instead of a chore. It is the one reason I stopped playing IWD - no SCS there means that HoF gets incredibly boring and easy to beat incredibly quickly. Stupid enemies are still stupid, except now they take five times longer to kill. Um... yeah. Obviously the only solution there is to make them not stupid, which is exactly what SCS etc. do.
For anyone looking for a challenge, if you have not tried SCS I urge you, I implore you to give it a try.
That really annoyed me.
And then 10 lvl Silke which hits everytime and has stoneskin precasted from scs but don't have it memorised.
I don't know why but all combined this suddenly starts to kill all fun for me.
Challenge is good but there should be limits and they should be at least more rewarding imho.
I enjoy the smart behavior SCS enemies have, I enjoy improved encounters and I enjoy battles against spellcasters.
So when I first was going to try the LoB mode with Phillip Daigle the jester, I wasn't sure about my subsequent thoughts on it.
As it has turned out, the LoB mode is fun in BG1. Maybe it's just me, but I really find it interesting and difficult to play with this mode at the start of the saga. Yes, I know most people think that it's silly when a kobold has tons of HPs but! The start of the saga is special in the sense that you don't have good gear, you don't have many options to kill enemies, you are low on HPs, THAC0, damage, everything. And instead of usual "see a group of kobolds" - Sleep - profit route you get a very hard battle. Some call it silly but it does actually make the game harder, at least for me.
You probably know that Phillip Daigle the jester is about to go to Cloakwood. The game up till this moment was actually harder than my previous runs with the full SCS install. I'm fully sincere here.
It felt a real achievement when the Nashkel Mines were cleared. It will stay as one of fresh, previously missing, emotions for me.
And I didn't see ANY way to defeat the group in the main tent in the Bandit Camp, at least with the gear and levels the game provides before reaching the BG city.
I remember my first SCS Bandit Camp. It was amazing, interesting and it's still one of the strongest emotions from BG games for me.
The Bandit Camp on the LoB mode wasn't the same. It was different but it was hard as well. Just difficult in another way.
No more one single Cloudkill spell from the scroll you find in the Cloud Mountains killing the whole camp. No more several nukes of fireball necklace. No more two hits with arrows of biting to kill any mage.
For me after all these years it's a fresh alternative and after the Phillip Daigle run I'm going to combine the SCS mod and the LoB mode in all future BG1 runs.
The start of BG1 when I first tried the LoB mode will be there in my head for years ahead, along with my emotions from the first ever SCS Bandit Camp.
I just can say that for me it's been a new experience and I'm grateful that after all these years I can get something new from BG games. It's hard for me to believe in it.
I know and I read that in BG2, on later levels, the LoB mode doesn't provide the same challenge. Indeed, a dragon just having 500 HPs instead of 100 HPs is not enough challenging as the 100 HP dragon with the SCS AI. The same goes for any quest encounters, like the Twisted Rune, Tolgerias, the Planar Prison etc.
But nobody forces you to play with the LoB mode. It's just an option. Just like nobody forces anyone to play with the SCS.
The developers really have done great things with AI in Siege of Dragonspear. It was a new expansion, so they could enhance AI. For BG1 and BG2 games we'll (probably) have the SCS mod as the option, not the unmodded AI. Because as the developers have said many times, changing AI in existing games would take a lot of effort, it would be like creating an expansion.
So, the LoB mode is just something the developers could do here, it's not a substitute for improved AI, it's an additional option.
Hope you'll find a way to beat that LOB Sarevok.
BTW you could also install item revisions, this adds fis resistances to armor so enemy melee will be even harder to beat.
I'm not saying that Legacy of Bhaal doesn't make the harder, it definitely does in my opinion except if you are playing with a Shadowdancer.
But I still think the way it increases the difficulty could be improved to make it more interesting.
Simple example: instead of HP * 3 + 80 we could get HP * 4 +20 which would prevent Rats, Gibberlings and Kobolds to become the most feared enemies in the realms, while making boss battles even more difficult.
What do you think:
-Makes the game harder? (More enemies, new abilities, more HP, more damage? Etc)
-Is an interesting difficulty setting?
I may try to create a mod this summer based on the feedback to makes the game more difficult.
No, it means you cast more buffs. Another Mirror Image spell, not a Strength spell instead. Another PFMW, not a Chain Lightning instead. Another Potion of Extra Healing, not a Potion of Absorption. Another Wish rest, not an Energy Drain. Another whack with Celestial Fury, not the Pixie Prick.
I'm in LoB mode right now and honestly I'm using the exact same playbook I use for normal no-reload SCS encounters. With few exceptions, the best options in normal mode are still the best options in LoB mode.
The gameplay is more difficult, but barely any different.
Perhaps if you actually used those things before, it's not much of a difference now. I can definitely see that.
As several of you have written above, everything just takes a lot longer and you have to rest after every single battle. It just becomes boring...
Good idea, but it still needs a lot of work.
/J
BG2 is a pretty different story, though.
I always favored parties that relied heavily on disablers--like my current one, which is based on using EE's new specialization save penalties to increase the effectiveness of Emotion, Feeblemind, Chromatic Orb, Hold Undead, Sunfire, and Wail of the Banshee. Although I'm abusing the hell out of Wands of Lightning with Boon of Lathander and Wands of Cloudkill, EE save penalties are the reason I chose the party I did (the party's Cleric of Lathander and Tyr levels were originally only there for Chant and Doom!).
Another example: we both share an affection for Archers, but for different reasons. You've always appreciated the Archer's raw power, while I've only ever been interested in Called Shot's STR drain and save penalties. Hence your single-classed Archers and my dual-classed Generic Archer/Mages and Archer/Thieves.
SetPrivateProfileString('Game Options','Nightmare Bonus XP','0')
Set it to "1"
SetPrivateProfileString('Game Options','No Difficulty Based XP Bonus','1')
Set it to "0"
Yes I know horror is a level 2 spell and sleep a level 1 spell but getting a few early level from basilisks doesn't change no matter how much HP and resistances they have. They are always going to be free bags of exp.
I must say that killing that douchebag flaming fist guy chasing Viconia was one of hardest fights I've had to do in BG. I was level 1 with Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid, Monty and Xzar. The main problem was if he targeted Vicky. If he did it was a instant reload because he would kill her in 2 hits. It took poison, traps, a wand of magic missiles and both of Vickys commands to not be saved against for me to actually win. A fight that normally takes me a matter of seconds took over half an hour.
The AI is still dumb so 5 dudes with range and 1 tank to kite works for most battles, those battles just take a very long time to finish. I actually stopped my LoB run because things where taking way too long, I want to play SoD sometime in the near future.
Also Ankhegs attacking for 40+ dmg a hit and almost always saving against command got real old real fast, I actually found it easier to farm Sirines " At that point I had Baeloth and changing fireballs, while keeping them poisoned worked really well." What I wrote doesn't look like it's a real thing that actually happened but with my level 5 party, Ankhegs could still one shot everybody besides Kagain.
Personally I love LoB + SCS, but it's definitely true that there's some issues with it as well, especially RP/philosophical ones.
I've tried a bunch and SCS tells me it's installed but nothing seems to work. I've used modmerge and the quickfix @subtledoctor made, nothing seems to make it work.
Made a Thief/Mage in EE Keeper gave him 50 haste scrolls , and 5 Elf Archer's ..all max stats and best BG1 Gear and breezed the mode through in an hour just doing the main story.
if lazy stat raising is the Challenge then lazy stat raising is the Answer.
I was poking a bit of fun here. In all seriousness, the lob mode needs a lot of balancing.
More HP means longer fights, which means more potential for bad plays to have noticeable effects, and more potential for good plays to mitigate those.
However, just having more numbers is also not exactly improving on an already primitive AI. Enemies mindlessly knocking on the first thing they see is still a thing in LoB, and while they may knock harder and longer, it's still all they do. That was also the downfall of HoF in IWD, but luckily we do have SCS in BG to turn things around.
SCS is likely more of a challenge than LoB. But they're by no means mutually exclusive. Personally I believe that for the most complete combat experience, SCS *and* LoB are pretty much essential (and probably IR/SR as well, but people are divided on those). Either on its own does improve vanilla combat considerably, but I feel that without the other they remain lacking in certain aspects. The combination is by no means flawless or perfect, but among the options available I believe it's the best we've got right now.