BALDUR'S GATE 3 - 2D or 3D ?

Veritasco

Discuss what you think the advantages and disadvantages are of using 2d isometric versus a 3D top down view for Baldur's Gate 3.

Why did you choose one view over the other?



**By isometric I mean the visual representation of three-dimensional objects in two dimensions**

ARKdeEREH

I think it would be nice to keep Baldur's Gate games in their present form. Newer games could have better graphics, but I prefer their present view to the 3d I've seen used in other games, such as Oblivion.

Veritasco

ARKdeEREH said:

I think it would be nice to keep Baldur's Gate games in their present form. Newer games could have better graphics, but I prefer their present view to the 3d I've seen used in other games, such as Oblivion.

I definitely agree with you, and I will give my reasons for thinking 2D is the way to go after I've slept :P (very tired tonight).

Rythgar

Nothing wrong with throwing modern graphics technology at it, but I think the isometric view is tied closely to the feel of the gameplay. Don't fix what isn't broken.

kamuizin

Nostalgia is good but evolution has no tolerance to regression. The 3D system is evolving yet, and i hope that when BG3 time comes, 3D become evolved enough to make justice to a great title.

We can't stop of walk foward because of fear of failed projects. the 3D engine would make possible many more features (as characters facial expressions, better relation between an inner movie and the game, visual comunication among others).

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salieri

3D is not necessarily more expensive than 2D. The line is a little blurred anyway. I mean, are we talking Skyrim 3D, NWN 3D, or, as I would like to see, detailed 3D character models in a 2D isometric environment. Wasn't Temple of Elemental Evil like that? I think it would look pretty awesome to get a sort of hand-painted aesthetic going on. A bit like Bastion but grittier/less cartoony.

EDIT: I may not have correctly read the OP...

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salieri

The trouble with having Dragon Age/Mass Effect style movies, close-ups of characters' expressions and things like that, although it makes for a more dynamic experience, you end up with one of three things: a lot of the character of the PC taken out of your hands, leading to a reduced feeling of 'ownership' over your character; an emotionally dead, non-emoting pc who just sort of stands around during movies (like in DA); or a PC that gets totally marginalised during cut scenes, leaving you feeling like a bit-part in the action.

The 'distance' provided by classic isometric rpgs simply allows for more imaginative input from the player. Just because we have the technology to do things a different way, doesn't mean is should be assumed that players can't manage their own imaginations anymore.

That said I still think 3D background would be fine, but I think a fixed perspective is best for a party-based rpg. As soon as you have to start controlling the camera, things get awkward. I always felt this way in NWN - things just get in the way. I've said elsewhere around here that, as much as I love detailed 3D games, I never felt in BG like I really wanted to see behind a wall or around a corner.

bigdogchris

I think you can have a game fully rendered in 3d for all of the lighting and character animation effects, but maintain the locked 3/4 isometric view.

kamuizin

Besides, BG II has 3D elements, they're primitive but they're there (just check the BGConfig options).

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salieri

bigdogchris said:

I think you can have a game fully rendered in 3d for all of the lighting and character animation effects, but maintain the locked 3/4 isometric view.

Ah, sorry, to clarify: I wasn't suggesting the two were mutually exclusive.

I do think it would be perhaps be more interesting, though, if they went down a really beautiful, intricately hand-painted route for backgrounds, just because it would set it apart a bit. Possibly labour intensive though.

Wondervice

Don't care as long as it looks good and all the other aspects (story, NPC characterisation) are done well.
Both 2D and 3D can be done beautifully and horribly.

salieri

Shandyr said:

Well we dont know the way 3D will develope in future. We do'nt know what kind of 3D the OP assumes.
There are 3D games in early 2000s, there are 3D games today, and in future 3D will be even more further advanced.

@salieri
You have a point at the following (if I got that correct):
When you dont see everything exactly in all details, you have to imagine it in your head, for example
if you read a book, you will have to use much more of your imagination in your head
than you have to when playing a video game.

In a book you read descriptions of scenery, landscapes, cities, buildings, people - but
will there ever be 2 people who imagine these things described in a book in absolutely the same way?

For me personally, this is no reason to prefer 2D to 3D, because
as my example shows, if I really wanted to imagine everything myself I would read a book, and
not play a video game in the first place.

Well my point here relates specifically to cutscenes and close-ups, not detail or in general and certainly not 3D graphics. I just think that however I've seen them handled in recent RPGs, they seem to take something away from the role of the Player Character.

I suppose one alternative could be to switch to first person perspective for cutscenes. I think I might quite like that actually...

AHF

Is there a 3D model out there we could see to help decide on this? NWN2's camera issues are a big detriment to the gameplay, IMO. The combat ends up being vastly inferior as a result compared to BG2. I sure don't want that.

I guess, my mind is open right now but the existing 2D is a good thing. You need a good reason to mess with a good thing. Keeping the fundamentals like @bigdogchris suggested seems like a safer path but if there is something out there worth seeing I'd like to pull up some youtube footage and view:

I think you can have a game fully rendered in 3d for all of the lighting and character animation effects, but maintain the locked 3/4 isometric view.

deltago

When I think of today's 3d, I think of Skyrim
When I think of today's 2d, I think of Dungeon Siege III

Even with some faults, I, as a player, felt more emerged in Skyrim than I did in DS3. I also feel adopting 3d technology will cater to more eye candy fans than 2d.

ryuken87

My computer is crap, so 2D.

Moomintroll

I haven't read the thread (lazy and it is late) but I think you just mean:
-2D Isometric
-3D Isometric

The 2D might as well be hand drawn it won't be any more 3D than it would have been, made in 3D and then rendered. I think the view we use here is called an orthographic projection, it is a parallel projection with no perspective.

If we want perspective then 3D is needed as the image will change as you move the camera over it.
So the 2D has to have no perspective, the 3D can have it or not depending on what we want. But saying "top down" makes it sound like you want a vertical bird's eye view.

Moradin

I think 90% of who is writing in this forum grew up with the isometric BG I and II style. NWN top-down 3D like view was ok, but I preferred way more the isometric view.
If ever some company would develop BG 3, I would like to see the ol' nice isometric once again.

dosentti666

3D isometric, as in highs & lows.

Jean_Luc

Another Poll - Herp or Derp, Douche or Turd.

Choose nao and discuss it for the 1000th time!

Kirkor

Definitely 2D isometric view. Why? 2D grafics gets old much slower and looks better than 3D when it gets old.
Look at Baldur's Gate series - the graphics are still nice for the eye, especialy after adding high resolution patch.
Now take a look at Morrowind. Or even Oblivion. Graphics are bad, textures are unpleasent for an eye... Those games just look ugly.

Other thing I like about isometric view, is that I don't have to create face for my character - usualy 3D games make my character look ugly.

kamuizin

Mass Effect series are an example of a good 3D game (besides the sad end of ME3, but that's a plot defect, not a graphic defect).

Blakes7

Do it like Project Eternity is doing it, enough said. That is isometric with 3d character designs and a painterly look.

Kristie83

2D isometric because my computer is starting to get a little behind the times and I fear I won't be able to play it if it is 3D. I'm still sad that I can't play Diablo 3. Also, I think it will visually fit in with the first two better. For me, the story, game-play, and functionality are the most important, not the visuals.

kamuizin

BG3 will be an entire new game, it isn't an remake, the price will not be $20 probally, and for $60+ in an 2D isometric game they will need to spread a LOT of astounding advertising material to convince me to pay that price.

If i paid for a pre-order in BG EE, that's justified by nostalgia.

Risingsun

Why isnt 3D isometric an option too? Games like Wasteland 2, ShadowRun returns, even Diablo 3, are using 3D graphics engines and models and still displaying them in the same style as old school 2D isometric RPGs. I think even project Eternity is doing the same thing in the Unity engine. A 3D engine makes it easier to customize and modify character models among other benefits. I'd for that.

Eidolon

Isometric, or get out.

Sharn

Where is the I don't care option?

As long as its a top down tactical view and a good game that is all that matters, hell, if its a great game with great characters and story and a lot of stuff to do they can use the BG2 engine again and I will be happy as can be.

Zwiebelchen

I chose 2D ... because I want to see a modern game that uses 2D-graphics and shows me how state-of-the-art 2D would look nowadays...

I mean... just look at the AWESOME backgrounds of Icewind Dale 2. Now think about how those backgrounds could look like today with almost 12 more years of art and technical developement with basicly quadrupled resolutions?

Those backgrounds were usually 3d modelled and pre-rendered. With modern technology, imagine how much more detail those backgrounds could get? I'd go as far to say that it could be possible to provide real photorealism to the landscapes nowadays when chosing for 2D (not that some landscapes of IWD2 wouldn't have been close to photorealism already). And I'd love to see that combined with some 3D character models walking on those backgrounds.

Plus, it saves the creators all the hassle of using complicated methods of saving rendering power by using complicated shaders, mapping, etc.

Just think of how much better stuff can actually look like if you will never have to worry about how much polies a model has? Imagine how much more detailed all the character models could look like if they are basicly the ONLY THING that has to be rendered in realtime?