I like to give Crom Faeyr to Korgan to dual wield with an axe, eventually the axe of the unyielding after I do Watcher's Keep. He already starts off with a pip in War Hammer so it lets me give a strength belt to someone else. Korgan will work in a good party too, Keldorn even banters about Korgan's prowess in battle. He does torment Aerie though until she has enough in ToB.
1.) I love having more than just one arcane caster (I love magic), is the combo Neera + Aerie really wrong? Also because fo the fact, as you say, Jaheira might not be the best suited single cleric in the party. Also, others have already mentioned 2 mages are a great idea for a party.
Wrong, no. Just probably useless.
You must realize that means to be dual-classed for Aerie is that she will be always late in term of spell power when played into a party. It means that her arcane spellcasting progress twice lower that the one of Neera.
To give a simple exemple: When Neera will reach epic spells and start to cast Time Stop + Improved Alacrity and kill ALL ennemies in battlefield in a single round, during that round, Aerie's best shot will be to summon one Mordenkanein's Sword, which will then appear on the battlefield when there is no opponent left for it to hit.
Mage/Clerics are insanely powerful in small party set-ups, or solo plays, since they won't share the xp with others, but in a full party they tend to be rather weak compared to a normal mage, and even more compared to Edwin, Wild Mages and Sorcerers. They need about 6 millions xp to reach level 9 spells, which is an amount you reach in a 6-men party only when you reach the very end of the game.
So, when you'll have ended Neera's Time Stop, Aerie will just have nothing to do with her arcane spells in 95% of the game. She will only be here to throw a few heals and buff, something Viconia will do better. But she won't hinder you, she will just not truly help you either.
@Moonheart, I could not disagree more. Mage/Clerics make up what they lack in fast progression with utility and being a failsafe. Because of the -5 to casting time with both arcane and divine, they can be ready with what you need as situations change. Most people focus on "what is best at high level" and that is odd considering you start at 8-9.
2.) Isn't Keldorn a viable tank? Many players have already suggested him in this thread. There has been the debate that figher VS monk - that fighter wins as a tank.
The general thinking is, save Use Any Item, Keldorn is almost always the only one that can wield Carsomyr in a party. There are other options for using the other powerful weapons. You can give him Lilarcor early before you get the holy avenger. I think I would even have Minsc dual wield Flail of Ages/Defender of Easthaven (and later Crom Faeyr) than take Keldorn sword 'n' board. Even thematically, there is something about him dispelling a spellcaster's protections and slicing him asunder with a big honking sword. lol
Usually I have Keldorn cast dispel magic in their direction first instead of waiting to hit them with Carsomyr. It is faster and hits a group of enemies. He can tank ok with the gauntlets of dexterity you find in the same dungeon you find him at the entrance to, and his true sights are always helpful.
Another reason I bring Korgan in sometimes is that I find the banters are more interesting with a mixed alignment party than solid good or solid evil.
@Moonheart, I could not disagree more. Mage/Clerics make up what they lack in fast progression with utility and being a failsafe. Because of the -5 to casting time with both arcane and divine, they can be ready with what you need as situations change. Most people focus on "what is best at high level" and that is odd considering you start at 8-9.
But is there a level where Aerie actualy outperform Neera? Interesting question, in fact.
Can you give us a level where Neera higher spell level in arcane just won't solve things better that Aerie's lower spell level in both arcane and cleric?
Aerie won't ever beat Neera in arcane-spellcasting, Neera is a specialist on top of reaching higher levels plus Aerie won't ever reach the amount of arcane Spellslots as Neera...
BUT Aerie has Cleric skills which gives her: 1. Access to better armors than robes like Elven Chainmail, including Helms. 2. Increased Weapon Pool due to Maces and such, Flail of Ages is nice just for the Free Action. 3. Crossover between Acrane and Divine magic, like with Contingency. 4. Finally the Divine spells, mostly healing and buffing. <-EDIT: Added
On the other side, @dracostrike, you could get Viconia instead of Aerie and give the Robe of Vecna to Neera trading:
- the Crossover between Arcane and Divine magic, that won't do anything great until you get the Chain Contingency, when Aerie will have 6.000.000xp, by the very end of the game
against:
- A cleric with high level divine spells during most of the game - Able to wear even better armors because you are not anoyed with arcane spellcasting - Having also 65% magic resistance, upgradable to 100%
AND:
- An arcane spellcaster that won't have to wait the end ot the game to cast 50 spell in a single round with the Robe of Vecna + Time Stop + Improved Alacrity, the most powerful combo of all the game, that allow to crush almost EVERY boss of the game before he can even do a scrach to the party, rendering all divine spell useless anyway safe for a rare greater restoration to gain back drained levels... if you have not been careful enough
Once again: I'm not saying Aerie sucks. I'm saying that Aerie, in a full party having already a specialist arcane spellcaster in, is less beneficial than Viconia or Amonen. Aerie shine however in a small party, with no other caster than he, but this is not what the thread opener asked for.
I always enjoyed using Cleric spells in Contingency (Heal at 25% HP! Whoo-hoo!) and Chain Contingency (See enemy, 3x Insect Plague) and for the sequencers and triggers since they cast faster that way. I feel like the Robe of Vecna gives more benefits to divine spellcasters since divine spells take so much longer on average. The crossover is more fun for me to play in a generalist style, but individual specialists can be more powerful for that style.
It comes down to playstyle I guess so there isn't a right or wrong answer. I generally prefer to operate as a group where all my characters are doing things versus having one character pre-determine the outcome of the battle and the other characters don't participate at the same level.
@Moonheart That was VERY insightful, thank you very much!
Well, this is my first time so I have no ideas about what items exist and which specialisations I should raise. Yet I would like to avoid metagaming, and yes, I will not be the best for sure in my first time. Learning how the mechanics of the game work etc.
Yay, send the link to the thread then! Might check it sometime
I always thought 2 mages were a must. Also, Rasaad may sound as the simpler way as you say - one will need more healing and less buffs. Anomen is a no-no since I have no idea how to equip him, as I said, I am new to a lot of this.
Now I am a bit unsure how to construct the party now.. I am not saying I need 6 characters, in fact I do not know, I am new, I just wanna enjoy my sneaky-stealthy shadowdancer, enjoy Neera's amazing spells and wild magic and enjoy the story - I like Jaheira and I do like Viconia as well, yet she feels more evilish than Hexxat. She just completely insulted Aerie in my party upon taking her with me (when I tried to see what would happen if I tried Viconia).
Yet I am here to enjoy this epic game and I guess I will do so whatever my crappy party will be like.
The spell Dispel Magic has been mentioned quite a few times which brings me to the question of how to effectively cast AoE spells? I mostly avoid them - I always tangle myself, dispel myself or damage myself, or silence myself. Myself meaning the whole party I find it hard to effectively trap mobs and cast an AoE spell on them.
Party 3 (no Aerie): - Shadowdancer - Neera - Jaheira - Mazzy - Keldorn - Someone?
Any of those groupings will work well. :-) The best part of the games to me is multiple playthroughs with different chars since the play style and banters are very different. I like to leave the 6th slot open sometimes to pick up people temporarily in SoA such as Valygar for the sphere part only, and to pick up Sarevok in TOB later and change his alignment. Lots of options, great fun. :-)
Every experienced player will actualy give you a different ring of bell about teambuilding. Perhaps it is best to explain you the underlying logic of each, so you can chose what you like the most.
Here is my own:
1- Robe of Vecna + Time Stop + Improved Alacrity is actualy the most insanely powerful combo of this game, able, if you use it well, to win every battle you will encounter with suffering a single blow 2- This combo however requiers a lot of clicks and will become IMHO tedious is you use it at every fight 3- Thus, my goal when I build a team is to chose my companions so my arcane spellcaster has to interefere the minimum amount of times during the adventure
My logic here is simple: If I have to start to cast spells to support my companion, it is not to waste time by starting to buff people when I could just nuke the whole battlefield and obliterate every opponent with my magic firepower instead.
If I'm so fond of Rasaad, it is because he's a perfect tank for people that don't want actualy to worry about management of physical fights. The only things Rasaad needs to be efficient are an early recruitment, the Gauntlets of Crushing and a pair of +% to magic resistance. Rasaad will easily rush to close quarters on sight, only controled by the AI, and hold the enemies without my help, most often long enough for the 4 other companions to help him to kill everyone with their ranged weapon. And if I see that isn't going to work => Nuke.
It is one way to think a team, but not the only one, nor a better one, just one among many.
I still however convainced about one thing: mages, cleric and thieves are hugely diminishing returns if you have more than one in a team, meaning that if you want to optimize it, you should not take 2 people with one of those roles.
Warriors are the only kind of character that cumulates without diminishing returns, meaning that if you build a 6 man party, it's best to have 1 mage, 1 cleric, 1 thieves, 3 warriors
mf2112 Moonheart dracostrike Clumsy_Dwarf wow, thank you for the discussion.
Now I am a bit unsure how to construct the party now.. I am not saying I need 6 characters, in fact I do not know, I am new, I just wanna enjoy my sneaky-stealthy shadowdancer, enjoy Neera's amazing spells and wild magic and enjoy the story - I like Jaheira and I do like Viconia as well, yet she feels more evilish than Hexxat. She just completely insulted Aerie in my party upon taking her with me (when I tried to see what would happen if I tried Viconia).
Yet I am here to enjoy this epic game and I guess I will do so whatever my crappy party will be like.
The spell Dispel Magic has been mentioned quite a few times which brings me to the question of how to effectively cast AoE spells? I mostly avoid them - I always tangle myself, dispel myself or damage myself, or silence myself. Myself meaning the whole party I find it hard to effectively trap mobs and cast an AoE spell on them.
The trickiest part of AoE spells is learning the area they will affect. This can be tough especially when changing the zoom levels. The best way to really learn it is to practice the various spells.
Go to an wide open outdoors area like DeArnise Keep or inside a building somewhere the Cowled Wizards won't bother you, move your casters away from the group a bit, quicksave, then let it fly. Fireballs, Entangle, Ice Storm, everything, boom, boom boom. Conjure in scrolls with the console for spells you don't have but want to try. Many spells are different, so figuring the approximate difference between 20 feet or 30 feet or 40 feet at different zoom levels can really help.
That said, reading the spell descriptions to see exactly which spells have which specific areas will help you there, as well as the range they can be cast at. Many times I have been caught out by targeting an area just a bit further than the range of the spell allows and my mages will just go walking on out ahead until they reach a location from which the spell can be cast to the point I chose. Don't forget line-of-sight either, without a wizard eye a mage cannot target spells on people or locations they can't directly see, so that sometimes will cause your chars to walk a bit before they cast to the point you pick.
Finally, casting AoE spells within range of some of the party members can sometimes be unavoidable. however, it may not be a big deal provided you have the proper protections in place. If you have fire resistance items or your clerics can can protection from fire on your front liners, then you may be able drop a fireball closer than you would ordinarily. If some of your characters have the free action spell cast on them or the ring or Spider's Bane, then a Web or Entangle is a great tactic even close to the front line. If you cast Vocalize with your mages then they can operate normally in the silent zone, so learning effective counter-tactics becomes important.
@obilie You might also consider that some of the most useful AoE spells can be cast right in the middle of your group to help your group or to hurt/incapacitate enemies and they won't hurt your party at all.
Sleep (affects enemies but not your party) Slow (affects enemies but not your party) Haste (affects your party but not enemies) Hold Person (affects enemies but not your party) Remove Magic (affects enemies but not your party, use this instead of Dispel Magic) Confusion (affects enemies but not your party) Emotion: Hopelessness (affects enemies but not your party) Greater Malison (affects enemies but not your party, use a round before Slow for a -8 total save penalty!) Chaos (affects enemies but not your party) Hold Monster (affects enemies but not your party) Death Spell (affects enemies but not your party, kills summons regardless of hit dice) Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting (affects enemies but not your party)
@Moonheart, I could not disagree more. Mage/Clerics make up what they lack in fast progression with utility and being a failsafe. Because of the -5 to casting time with both arcane and divine, they can be ready with what you need as situations change. Most people focus on "what is best at high level" and that is odd considering you start at 8-9.
But is there a level where Aerie actualy outperform Neera? Interesting question, in fact.
Can you give us a level where Neera higher spell level in arcane just won't solve things better that Aerie's lower spell level in both arcane and cleric?
I am not saying take her instead of a pure arcane spellcaster. I am saying take her in addition to.
Once again: I'm not saying Aerie sucks. I'm saying that Aerie, in a full party having already a specialist arcane spellcaster in, is less beneficial than Viconia or Amonen. Aerie shine however in a small party, with no other caster than he, but this is not what the thread opener asked for.
I would easily take her over Viconia or Amonen because neither of them can benefit from the Robe of Vecna. It is not just for healing spells either. Being able to get off some thin like False Dawn fast can make a world of difference.
I would easily take her over Viconia or Amonen because neither of them can benefit from the Robe of Vecna. It is not just for healing spells either. Being able to get off some thin like False Dawn fast can make a world of difference.
As a remainder of the context of the discussion: we're talking of a full party where Neera is included, so the Robe of Vecna have already a better user.
I would easily take her over Viconia or Amonen because neither of them can benefit from the Robe of Vecna. It is not just for healing spells either. Being able to get off some thin like False Dawn fast can make a world of difference.
As a remainder of the context of the discussion: we're talking of a full party where Neera is included, so the Robe of Vecna have already a better user.
I understand the context of the discussion and think it is better served on Aerie for 80% of the game because it will effect divine spells as well.
I just finished a complete playthrough from Candlekeep to Throne of Bhaal using combat tactics inspired by Dragon Age 1 and 2. The main idea was that because there is a lot of combat in BG2 and because too much micromanagement makes combat tedious and boring, the party should fight in as straightforward way as possible. It turned out that the straightforward way was also much easier than the traditional tactics.
I did roughly the following:
Minimal use of buffs. Stoneskin is ok, because it lasts for a long time. Bless, Chant, and Remove/Resist Fear are also ok at the start of a tough battle, as they affect everyone. Pretty much everything else becomes tedious in the long term, as your party runs out of spells and then you have to rest all the time.
Minimal use of debuffs. A Breach or Insect Swarm can be handy against enemy spellcasters, but they're rarely necessary.
Warriors instead of wizards. A mage can win a couple of fights easily, but then they run out of useful spells and have to rest.
Ranged combat instead of melee. If you rely on melee combat, you'll soon run out of healing, and then you have to rest. Additionally, bows and slings allow you to concentrate on one enemy at a time, reducing enemy firepower faster than if you engage multiple enemies in melee.
Have multiple melee fighters, but prefer to expose only one or two of them. The less melee fighters you use, the better protected they can be from all sources of harm.
Use summons in tough battles. Skeletons, elementals, and swords can survive some punishment, freeing your melee fighters to less dangerous ranged combat. Besides, mages don't have that much to do in combat anyway.
Avoid resting. Random encounters can be annoying. It's better if the party can survive a major dungeon without resting.
I switched NPCs quite often in the early game, but I eventually ended up with the main character (archer), Minsc, Jaheira, Mazzy, Imoen, and Aerie. The party had the following roles:
Scouts (main character, Imoen): Handle traps and locks, deal with weak enemies, and lure strong enemies to an ambush.
Primary combatants (main character, Minsc): Fight both in melee and at range, as the situation warrants. Meet certain enemies without the rest of the party, if status effects would make less well protected characters a liability.
Ranged support (Jaheira, Mazzy): Prefer ranged combat but be prepared for melee as well.
Summoners (Jaheira, Imoen, Aerie): Have a handful of good summoning spells memorized. Be prepared to cast other spells as well, if the opportunity arises.
Swiss army knife (Aerie with Robe of Vecna): Quickly counter harmful status effects.
Healers (Jaheira, Aerie): Keep the party standing from combat to combat.
Imoen often had a Sequencer with three Dispel Magics prepared as a last resort. When the situation was getting out of control, the Sequencer had a decent chance of dispelling all harmful effects. And because I was using only minimal buffs, there were barely any side effects.
Towards the end of the game, the permanent protections on the main character and Minsc were approaching ridiculous levels. They could often just sit and watch, as enemy mages spent all their spells without much effect.
Bosses that were vulnerable to missile weapons didn't stand a chance against a full party with good bows/crossbows/slings. Firkraag didn't have the time to heal itself. Draconis died on the first attempt. Balthazar didn't last even a full round against the machine gun of doom.
The trickiest part of AoE spells is learning the area they will affect. This can be tough especially when changing the zoom levels. The best way to really learn it is to practice the various spells.
Thank you @mf2112 I will do so! Yet I fear that e.g. a Cloudkill produces those poisonous clouds everywhere, or, if placed efficiently, my warriors will still want to walk into them in order to fight. And thank you for the spell recommendations! Very useful.
Once again: I'm not saying Aerie sucks. I'm saying that Aerie, in a full party having already a specialist arcane spellcaster in, is less beneficial than Viconia or Amonen. Aerie shine however in a small party, with no other caster than he, but this is not what the thread opener asked for.
I would easily take her over Viconia or Amonen because neither of them can benefit from the Robe of Vecna. It is not just for healing spells either. Being able to get off some thin like False Dawn fast can make a world of difference.
@Clumsy_Dwarf, I think @Moonheart would have already given the robe of Veccna to Neera in that case if I got it right, and you'd choose Aerie, so there is the whole topic of whom to give it to, right?
Thank you @Jouni, that was VERY insightful! I agree, simplicity is the key and resting and casting magic is slow and tedious. Will follow your advice! And I will try to use less magic.
I do not truly understand the argument of @Clumsy_Dwarf, in fact. Perhaps he plays with SCS (a mod made to make the game harder for people having played it too much already, and changing several rules), otherwise I really don't get his point of being able to cast divine spells faster.
Dragon of Watcher Keep => 1 round kill, and I didn't even did my fullest against him... that would have been overkilling.
My question will be simple: what is the purpose to cast False Dawn -or any other divine spell- faster when you can kill every opponent on the battlefield three times before the time comes where you would theoricaly need that spell?
I NEVER use divine spells during fights, simply because anytime my Rasaad can't just solo the whole battlefield alone without any support, I make my arcane spellcaster use the Time Stop + Improved Alacrity + Robe of Vecna combo, and deal more than 250d5 + 60d8 of area damage in less than 6 seconds.
Best defense is offense... especialy when your offense is the magical equivalent of a tactical nuke.
The trickiest part of AoE spells is learning the area they will affect. This can be tough especially when changing the zoom levels. The best way to really learn it is to practice the various spells.
Thank you @mf2112 I will do so! Yet I fear that e.g. a Cloudkill produces those poisonous clouds everywhere, or, if placed efficiently, my warriors will still want to walk into them in order to fight. And thank you for the spell recommendations!
You are very welcome. It is true that walking into a cloudkill spell will cause your characters some damage. It is only 1-10 points per round though, and it only affects you while in the cloud radius. When you walk out the damage stops right away with no slow or neutralize poison required, so not that bad overall. And there are several items in the game to make you immune to poison so you can walk right through it. I will generally wait out the clouds before moving on, but if I think there are more enemies close by I will go through the cloud and them lead them back through it since they will generally take more damage than I will. Also, if you switch your fighters over to missile weapons they won't walk into the cloud unless the enemies run away and then they will follow of course. Good luck!
I do not truly understand the argument of @Clumsy_Dwarf, in fact. Perhaps he plays with SCS (a mod made to make the game harder for people having played it too much already, and changing several rules), otherwise I really don't get his point of being able to cast divine spells faster.
Dragon of Watcher Keep => 1 round kill, and I didn't even did my fullest against him... that would have been overkilling.
My question will be simple: what is the purpose to cast False Dawn -or any other divine spell- faster when you can kill every opponent on the battlefield three times before the time comes where you would theoricaly need that spell?
I NEVER use divine spells during fights, simply because anytime my Rasaad can't just solo the whole battlefield alone without any support, I make my arcane spellcaster use the Time Stop + Improved Alacrity + Robe of Vecna combo, and deal more than 250d5 + 60d8 of area damage in less than 6 seconds.
Best defense is offense... especialy when your offense is the magical equivalent of a tactical nuke.
That is certainly impressive, but not generally available for most players for at least half or two thirds or the game. There are a lot of battles before that point where that tactic won't be available, so players might choose from a range of different options. Particularly a lot of undead battles, so a quick false dawn to start and a battle will be over very quickly, then you could move on and take on another group with another quick false dawn to start. Tons of multi undead battles in the early-to-mid SoA areas. Or some players may not wish to rest after every battle. The fortunate thing is that BG accommodates a huge variety of playing styles since every player invariably chooses something different. I like balance and spreading things out, but YMMV.
Actually, the suggestion to use the Robe of Vecna on Aerie was mine, and I suggested it for the reason that it can make a much wider range of cleric spells 'battle-friendly' by lowering the casting time by 4 as well as lowering the casting time for all her mage spells, so kind of a two-fer there. I generally give my other mage the Amulet of Power since lowering his casting time by 1 is helping a lot of his spells, 4 would be overkill much of the time. Again, your mileage may vary, there is no right and no wrong answer. Overall I tend to adapt different tactics and strategies to different areas of the games since it is more fun for me, plus I develop over time so I can do things I couldn't do before. Well, without the console. :sly:
@Clumsy_Dwarf, I think @Moonheart would have already given the robe of Veccna to Neera in that case if I got it right, and you'd choose Aerie, so there is the whole topic of whom to give it to, right?
It has been a hot debate for the past...16 years or so. I remember someone once tried to make the case for a bard to use it. That was just silly tough
I do not truly understand the argument of @Clumsy_Dwarf, in fact. Perhaps he plays with SCS (a mod made to make the game harder for people having played it too much already, and changing several rules), otherwise I really don't get his point of being able to cast divine spells faster.
Dragon of Watcher Keep => 1 round kill, and I didn't even did my fullest against him... that would have been overkilling.
My question will be simple: what is the purpose to cast False Dawn -or any other divine spell- faster when you can kill every opponent on the battlefield three times before the time comes where you would theoricaly need that spell?
I NEVER use divine spells during fights, simply because anytime my Rasaad can't just solo the whole battlefield alone without any support, I make my arcane spellcaster use the Time Stop + Improved Alacrity + Robe of Vecna combo, and deal more than 250d5 + 60d8 of area damage in less than 6 seconds.
Best defense is offense... especialy when your offense is the magical equivalent of a tactical nuke.
As I and @mf2112 said, this is not what a majority of the game is like. You really do not get that kind of power until HLAs kick in. If you expect to kill any of the SoA dragons around level 14, you are going to need healing. You are spending ~75% of BG2 without HLAs and 9th level spells so you have to be ready for that or save those kind of fights for right before Irenicus when you might have some of that power.
There is another saying about slow and steady winning the race and that is a bit more applicable from level 8 to 17.
Before the HLA, Neera can cast Horrid Wilting when Aerie cannot, and before that Mordenkanein's Sword, and so on... this is not just a matter of level 17+, at any level I can think of, Neera have a better spell to cast than all Aerie's arsenal.
I almost NEVER had to cast a single divine spell during battles in all my playthrough to win my battle, including during level 8-17. And my divine spellcaster is Viconia, which doesn't get an half-speed divine spell progression.
Dragon of Watcher Keep => 1 round kill, and I didn't even did my fullest against him... that would have been overkilling.
Day 500 is about 4x more than what my (almost) completionist playthroughs take.
Traditional (A)D&D game mechanics are based on abilitites with limited uses per day. This leads to dungeon design, where encounters and traps wear the party down before they can face the boss. Larger dungeons might have opportunities to rest, but typically not on every level and definitely not before boss battles. Computer adaptations allow you to rest almost anywhere, but doing so is against the spirit of the game and amounts to playing at a lower difficulty level. Actually lowering the difficulty level offers a less tedious way to reach the same goal.
Traditional (A)D&D game mechanics are based on abilitites with limited uses per day. This leads to dungeon design, where encounters and traps wear the party down before they can face the boss. Larger dungeons might have opportunities to rest, but typically not on every level and definitely not before boss battles. Computer adaptations allow you to rest almost anywhere, but doing so is against the spirit of the game and amounts to playing at a lower difficulty level. Actually lowering the difficulty level offers a less tedious way to reach the same goal.
There's a slight flaw in your logic. You're assuming that the PnP implementations are balanced in the same manner as the computer adaptations. That couldn't be further from the truth. When a game dev team, for games like this, decides to allow resting anywhere, I can assure you that they balance the game with the idea of resting anywhere in mind. It's not "against the spirit of the game", because the balance is for the computer adaptations. You can NOT treat computer adaptations in the same manner that you treat PnP adaptations. There are two separate systems. The core ruleset is the same, but the ruleset had to be edited for the computer adaptation, simply because computer calculate things much faster than tends to happen in PnP. Also, there's the fact that, typically, PnP dungeons don't have as many enemies as the BG series or the IWD series tend to have. In PnP, because there's usually more roleplay involved between party members, there isn't as much need for spawning groups of enemies to keep the player(s) interested.
@rapsam2003 I do not think BG is balanced for unlimited resting. Do you?
I don't think it is at all. I think that the game was balanced with the idea of unlimited resting in mind.
By contrast, PnP D&D is NEVER balanced with the idea of unlimited resting in mind. Resting whenever and wherever in PnP? That's a good way to end up with a dead party.
Comments
The general thinking is, save Use Any Item, Keldorn is almost always the only one that can wield Carsomyr in a party. There are other options for using the other powerful weapons. You can give him Lilarcor early before you get the holy avenger. I think I would even have Minsc dual wield Flail of Ages/Defender of Easthaven (and later Crom Faeyr) than take Keldorn sword 'n' board. Even thematically, there is something about him dispelling a spellcaster's protections and slicing him asunder with a big honking sword. lol
Another reason I bring Korgan in sometimes is that I find the banters are more interesting with a mixed alignment party than solid good or solid evil.
Interesting question, in fact.
Can you give us a level where Neera higher spell level in arcane just won't solve things better that Aerie's lower spell level in both arcane and cleric?
BUT Aerie has Cleric skills which gives her:
1. Access to better armors than robes like Elven Chainmail, including Helms.
2. Increased Weapon Pool due to Maces and such, Flail of Ages is nice just for the Free Action.
3. Crossover between Acrane and Divine magic, like with Contingency.
4. Finally the Divine spells, mostly healing and buffing. <-EDIT: Added
- the Crossover between Arcane and Divine magic, that won't do anything great until you get the Chain Contingency, when Aerie will have 6.000.000xp, by the very end of the game
against:
- A cleric with high level divine spells during most of the game
- Able to wear even better armors because you are not anoyed with arcane spellcasting
- Having also 65% magic resistance, upgradable to 100%
AND:
- An arcane spellcaster that won't have to wait the end ot the game to cast 50 spell in a single round with the Robe of Vecna + Time Stop + Improved Alacrity, the most powerful combo of all the game, that allow to crush almost EVERY boss of the game before he can even do a scrach to the party, rendering all divine spell useless anyway safe for a rare greater restoration to gain back drained levels... if you have not been careful enough
Once again: I'm not saying Aerie sucks.
I'm saying that Aerie, in a full party having already a specialist arcane spellcaster in, is less beneficial than Viconia or Amonen.
Aerie shine however in a small party, with no other caster than he, but this is not what the thread opener asked for.
It comes down to playstyle I guess so there isn't a right or wrong answer. I generally prefer to operate as a group where all my characters are doing things versus having one character pre-determine the outcome of the battle and the other characters don't participate at the same level.
Well, this is my first time so I have no ideas about what items exist and which specialisations I should raise. Yet I would like to avoid metagaming, and yes, I will not be the best for sure in my first time. Learning how the mechanics of the game work etc.
Yay, send the link to the thread then! Might check it sometime
I always thought 2 mages were a must.
Also, Rasaad may sound as the simpler way as you say - one will need more healing and less buffs.
Anomen is a no-no since I have no idea how to equip him, as I said, I am new to a lot of this.
wow, thank you for the discussion.
Now I am a bit unsure how to construct the party now.. I am not saying I need 6 characters, in fact I do not know, I am new, I just wanna enjoy my sneaky-stealthy shadowdancer, enjoy Neera's amazing spells and wild magic and enjoy the story - I like Jaheira and I do like Viconia as well, yet she feels more evilish than Hexxat. She just completely insulted Aerie in my party upon taking her with me (when I tried to see what would happen if I tried Viconia).
Yet I am here to enjoy this epic game and I guess I will do so whatever my crappy party will be like.
The spell Dispel Magic has been mentioned quite a few times which brings me to the question of how to effectively cast AoE spells?
I mostly avoid them - I always tangle myself, dispel myself or damage myself, or silence myself. Myself meaning the whole party
Party 1:
- Shadowdancer
- Aerie
- Neera
- Jaheira
- Mazzy
- Keldorn
Party 2:
- Shadowdancer
- Aerie
- Neera
- Jaheira
- Mazzy
- Rasaad
Party 3 (no Aerie):
- Shadowdancer
- Neera
- Jaheira
- Mazzy
- Keldorn
- Someone?
Perhaps it is best to explain you the underlying logic of each, so you can chose what you like the most.
Here is my own:
1- Robe of Vecna + Time Stop + Improved Alacrity is actualy the most insanely powerful combo of this game, able, if you use it well, to win every battle you will encounter with suffering a single blow
2- This combo however requiers a lot of clicks and will become IMHO tedious is you use it at every fight
3- Thus, my goal when I build a team is to chose my companions so my arcane spellcaster has to interefere the minimum amount of times during the adventure
My logic here is simple: If I have to start to cast spells to support my companion, it is not to waste time by starting to buff people when I could just nuke the whole battlefield and obliterate every opponent with my magic firepower instead.
If I'm so fond of Rasaad, it is because he's a perfect tank for people that don't want actualy to worry about management of physical fights.
The only things Rasaad needs to be efficient are an early recruitment, the Gauntlets of Crushing and a pair of +% to magic resistance. Rasaad will easily rush to close quarters on sight, only controled by the AI, and hold the enemies without my help, most often long enough for the 4 other companions to help him to kill everyone with their ranged weapon.
And if I see that isn't going to work => Nuke.
It is one way to think a team, but not the only one, nor a better one, just one among many.
I still however convainced about one thing: mages, cleric and thieves are hugely diminishing returns if you have more than one in a team, meaning that if you want to optimize it, you should not take 2 people with one of those roles.
Warriors are the only kind of character that cumulates without diminishing returns, meaning that if you build a 6 man party, it's best to have 1 mage, 1 cleric, 1 thieves, 3 warriors
Go to an wide open outdoors area like DeArnise Keep or inside a building somewhere the Cowled Wizards won't bother you, move your casters away from the group a bit, quicksave, then let it fly. Fireballs, Entangle, Ice Storm, everything, boom, boom boom. Conjure in scrolls with the console for spells you don't have but want to try. Many spells are different, so figuring the approximate difference between 20 feet or 30 feet or 40 feet at different zoom levels can really help.
That said, reading the spell descriptions to see exactly which spells have which specific areas will help you there, as well as the range they can be cast at. Many times I have been caught out by targeting an area just a bit further than the range of the spell allows and my mages will just go walking on out ahead until they reach a location from which the spell can be cast to the point I chose. Don't forget line-of-sight either, without a wizard eye a mage cannot target spells on people or locations they can't directly see, so that sometimes will cause your chars to walk a bit before they cast to the point you pick.
Finally, casting AoE spells within range of some of the party members can sometimes be unavoidable. however, it may not be a big deal provided you have the proper protections in place. If you have fire resistance items or your clerics can can protection from fire on your front liners, then you may be able drop a fireball closer than you would ordinarily. If some of your characters have the free action spell cast on them or the ring or Spider's Bane, then a Web or Entangle is a great tactic even close to the front line. If you cast Vocalize with your mages then they can operate normally in the silent zone, so learning effective counter-tactics becomes important.
Sleep (affects enemies but not your party)
Slow (affects enemies but not your party)
Haste (affects your party but not enemies)
Hold Person (affects enemies but not your party)
Remove Magic (affects enemies but not your party, use this instead of Dispel Magic)
Confusion (affects enemies but not your party)
Emotion: Hopelessness (affects enemies but not your party)
Greater Malison (affects enemies but not your party, use a round before Slow for a -8 total save penalty!)
Chaos (affects enemies but not your party)
Hold Monster (affects enemies but not your party)
Death Spell (affects enemies but not your party, kills summons regardless of hit dice)
Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting (affects enemies but not your party)
I would easily take her over Viconia or Amonen because neither of them can benefit from the Robe of Vecna. It is not just for healing spells either. Being able to get off some thin like False Dawn fast can make a world of difference.
@mf2112, How did you forget Holy Smite?
I did roughly the following:
- Minimal use of buffs. Stoneskin is ok, because it lasts for a long time. Bless, Chant, and Remove/Resist Fear are also ok at the start of a tough battle, as they affect everyone. Pretty much everything else becomes tedious in the long term, as your party runs out of spells and then you have to rest all the time.
- Minimal use of debuffs. A Breach or Insect Swarm can be handy against enemy spellcasters, but they're rarely necessary.
- Warriors instead of wizards. A mage can win a couple of fights easily, but then they run out of useful spells and have to rest.
- Ranged combat instead of melee. If you rely on melee combat, you'll soon run out of healing, and then you have to rest. Additionally, bows and slings allow you to concentrate on one enemy at a time, reducing enemy firepower faster than if you engage multiple enemies in melee.
- Have multiple melee fighters, but prefer to expose only one or two of them. The less melee fighters you use, the better protected they can be from all sources of harm.
- Use summons in tough battles. Skeletons, elementals, and swords can survive some punishment, freeing your melee fighters to less dangerous ranged combat. Besides, mages don't have that much to do in combat anyway.
- Avoid resting. Random encounters can be annoying. It's better if the party can survive a major dungeon without resting.
I switched NPCs quite often in the early game, but I eventually ended up with the main character (archer), Minsc, Jaheira, Mazzy, Imoen, and Aerie. The party had the following roles:- Scouts (main character, Imoen): Handle traps and locks, deal with weak enemies, and lure strong enemies to an ambush.
- Primary combatants (main character, Minsc): Fight both in melee and at range, as the situation warrants. Meet certain enemies without the rest of the party, if status effects would make less well protected characters a liability.
- Ranged support (Jaheira, Mazzy): Prefer ranged combat but be prepared for melee as well.
- Summoners (Jaheira, Imoen, Aerie): Have a handful of good summoning spells memorized. Be prepared to cast other spells as well, if the opportunity arises.
- Swiss army knife (Aerie with Robe of Vecna): Quickly counter harmful status effects.
- Healers (Jaheira, Aerie): Keep the party standing from combat to combat.
Imoen often had a Sequencer with three Dispel Magics prepared as a last resort. When the situation was getting out of control, the Sequencer had a decent chance of dispelling all harmful effects. And because I was using only minimal buffs, there were barely any side effects.Towards the end of the game, the permanent protections on the main character and Minsc were approaching ridiculous levels. They could often just sit and watch, as enemy mages spent all their spells without much effect.
And thank you for the spell recommendations!
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I would easily take her over Viconia or Amonen because neither of them can benefit from the Robe of Vecna. It is not just for healing spells either. Being able to get off some thin like False Dawn fast can make a world of difference.@Clumsy_Dwarf, I think @Moonheart would have already given the robe of Veccna to Neera in that case if I got it right, and you'd choose Aerie, so there is the whole topic of whom to give it to, right?
Thank you @Jouni, that was VERY insightful! I agree, simplicity is the key and resting and casting magic is slow and tedious. Will follow your advice! And I will try to use less magic.
Perhaps he plays with SCS (a mod made to make the game harder for people having played it too much already, and changing several rules), otherwise I really don't get his point of being able to cast divine spells faster.
Let me illustrate my point with a little screenshot from my Children of Fire playthrough:
Dragon of Watcher Keep => 1 round kill, and I didn't even did my fullest against him... that would have been overkilling.
My question will be simple: what is the purpose to cast False Dawn -or any other divine spell- faster when you can kill every opponent on the battlefield three times before the time comes where you would theoricaly need that spell?
I NEVER use divine spells during fights, simply because anytime my Rasaad can't just solo the whole battlefield alone without any support, I make my arcane spellcaster use the Time Stop + Improved Alacrity + Robe of Vecna combo, and deal more than 250d5 + 60d8 of area damage in less than 6 seconds.
Best defense is offense... especialy when your offense is the magical equivalent of a tactical nuke.
Actually, the suggestion to use the Robe of Vecna on Aerie was mine, and I suggested it for the reason that it can make a much wider range of cleric spells 'battle-friendly' by lowering the casting time by 4 as well as lowering the casting time for all her mage spells, so kind of a two-fer there. I generally give my other mage the Amulet of Power since lowering his casting time by 1 is helping a lot of his spells, 4 would be overkill much of the time. Again, your mileage may vary, there is no right and no wrong answer. Overall I tend to adapt different tactics and strategies to different areas of the games since it is more fun for me, plus I develop over time so I can do things I couldn't do before. Well, without the console. :sly:
As I and @mf2112 said, this is not what a majority of the game is like. You really do not get that kind of power until HLAs kick in. If you expect to kill any of the SoA dragons around level 14, you are going to need healing. You are spending ~75% of BG2 without HLAs and 9th level spells so you have to be ready for that or save those kind of fights for right before Irenicus when you might have some of that power.
There is another saying about slow and steady winning the race and that is a bit more applicable from level 8 to 17.
I almost NEVER had to cast a single divine spell during battles in all my playthrough to win my battle, including during level 8-17. And my divine spellcaster is Viconia, which doesn't get an half-speed divine spell progression.
Day 500 is about 4x more than what my (almost) completionist playthroughs take.
Traditional (A)D&D game mechanics are based on abilitites with limited uses per day. This leads to dungeon design, where encounters and traps wear the party down before they can face the boss. Larger dungeons might have opportunities to rest, but typically not on every level and definitely not before boss battles. Computer adaptations allow you to rest almost anywhere, but doing so is against the spirit of the game and amounts to playing at a lower difficulty level. Actually lowering the difficulty level offers a less tedious way to reach the same goal.
There are two separate systems. The core ruleset is the same, but the ruleset had to be edited for the computer adaptation, simply because computer calculate things much faster than tends to happen in PnP. Also, there's the fact that, typically, PnP dungeons don't have as many enemies as the BG series or the IWD series tend to have. In PnP, because there's usually more roleplay involved between party members, there isn't as much need for spawning groups of enemies to keep the player(s) interested.
By contrast, PnP D&D is NEVER balanced with the idea of unlimited resting in mind. Resting whenever and wherever in PnP? That's a good way to end up with a dead party.