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Neutral/Good Party Advice - Too many clerics?

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  • obilieobilie Member Posts: 44
    And @mf2112 would you go with Aerie or Viconia? Having Neera (and maybe Jaheira) already?
    There seems to be a long discussion about this - some praise Viconia is single-classed and has her huge magical resistance, some say Cleric spells are not that important and Aerie will be enough, especially in a party of say 4 or 5 - she will level faster.
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    Hi @obilie I would say it depends on whether or not (or who) you might want to have a romance with in the game. If you want to play through the Jaheira romance, I would pick Aerie. If you want to try the Neera romance then I would say to try Viconia, I think the in-group banters are a bit less pointed that way. Viconia and Jaheira don't get along particularly well as you might imagine, and less so when a romance is involved. Aerie is easier about handling the choice of Jaheira.
    obilie
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    edited June 2016
    Jaheira doesn't truly get along with Aerie, either, you know. So it's barely an argument to chose someone in the party.

    To me, if you want the party the most balanced and with the most ties between members, this is:
    - Jaheira
    - Minsc
    - Imoen
    - Aerie
    - Haer'dalis

    Those 6 characters have more bonds than any other combination possible in BG2, and it's a party that is also pretty balanced too, with no useless part.
    Sometimes, I think it is the party the dev had in mind when the started to concieve the game, all other characters are very more loosely blending in the story.

    Here are minor spoilers that explain my point of view on this:

    There is absolutly no doubt to have about the importance of Imoen: she's the central NPC of all the Shadows of Amn part.

    Minsc and Jaheira are litteraly thrown in the arms of the players, in fact, the dialogs in the starting dungeon of BG2 shows that the protagonist were supposed to have played in a party including himself/herself, Jaheira, her husband Khalid, Minsc, Minsc's protegee Dynaheir and Imoen... and thus, you have no true good reason to reject people you have been entrusting your life during months before the start of BG2, unless you play heavily the amnesia card.

    Aerie is located in the very first zone you reach outside the intro dungeon, her recruitment quest is litteraly in the plain middle of the area, so you can't miss it. Plus, it's probably the easiest quest you will find in the whole city, showing how much it is expected to be completed first, while your level is low and your party small...
    Once recruited, Minsc form a new bond with Aerie, replacing Dynaheir in a very obvious way...

    Once you travel long enough with her, suddently, Aerie's uncle call for her.
    This summoning will lead you to Hear'Dalis recruitment quest, something that just doesn't exist anywhere else in BG2, the closest being Yoshimo leading you in a quest where you will meet Edwin... but not recuit him permanently like Aerie does with Haer'Dalis.
    And not only Aerie will cause you to do the recruitment quest of another NPC, but this very NPC will soon start to seduce her, and will become her boyfriend if you decide to cast her aside and chose Jaheira instead.

    And what you end with at this point?

    A chain of bonds: the siblings (protagonist and Imoen) have two old friends named Jaheira and Minsc, Minsc has a new witch called Aerie, who has a boyfriend named Haer'Dalis.
    This is the only one chain of bonds that the game create by itself... all other people you can recruit have nothing to truly justify that they will stay with you during your ordeal (seriously, who start to hazard his life fightning liches, dragons, demons and halff-gods just because you help them once?), except those ones.

    Plus all those characters make a perfectly balanced party:
    - You normaly need one character to cover thievery needs, and in this party, those needs are equaly shared between Imoen (for traps and locks) and Hear'Dalis (for pickpocketting)
    - The same way, divine spell casting is equaly shared between Jaheira (druid spells) and Aerie (cleric spells)
    - The arcane spell casting is itself equaly shared beween Imoen and Aerie two multi/dual-classed mages
    - Minsc serve as the offensive warrior of the party... and what is his favored ennemy? Vampires. The most central kind of enemy in all the SoA
    - Hear'Dalis complete this by bringing also tanking capabilities that none of the other companion has

    All their weapons of predilection are also all different, so you don't normaly never have conflict between to of those characters for the same weapon... what is missing in this team?
    Nothing aside the Set Trap skill. This party just can do everything besides that.


    Seriously, it's really too much coincidences to not think that the game was first designed for you to play with those 5 companions
    Post edited by Moonheart on
    FinneousPJHudzyobilie
  • obilieobilie Member Posts: 44
    @mf2112 thank you for your reply! I am not sure if I do want any romance actually. Though I would like to see the Hexxat romance once I make a female character.

    @Moonheart Wow that is very insightful! I do not need Imoen though since I am a Shadowdancer, yet it feels weird not to bring her along as the story is a lot about her. Wow, but I will def. think about it! Now or later! I may not be that interested in those characters - but I would like to try it since, as you say, it really does feel "seamless" and a great way to experience BG2.

    The thing is - I bought BG2 when I was around 11-12 years old and it was too hard. I was very young, I had no idea how the game worked, had never played anything that hard before... so I struggled, I slept a lot and just getting out of the Irenicus' Dungeon took me some time. Then the world outside was just too much, I think I left the city too early etc. Later I tried the game quite a few times and always just got to Chapter 2 and quit - I do not know, I think I was too young to appreciate it and still it was a bit hard. I think the young age kind of ruined it for me and it took some time I got the spark of interest back, that I realised this was THE game of all time.
    Finally now I feel fresh and super-exited about this amazing game and seeing Minsc, Jaheira, Imoen and Aerie just brings the very same memories back - I saw basically just "them" in my 4-5 tries and I feel already like I need somebody different, exciting like Hexxat, somebody who would not remind of the days when I started BG2 and actually felt scared from it. And this is exactly Minsc - with his much beloved "go for the eyes Boo!" just evokes Irenicus' Dungeon to me (and I hate the place, felt too scary when I was 11), Jaheira (partly) and of course, Imoen and her "This place is just too dark and creepy, I really wanna get out of here!"

    But I really should try the party one day!
    Not sure if now - since I am shadowdancer.
    But I should!
    JuliusBorisovmf2112
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    Well, this is the only thing I don't like about Shadowdancer, a class I'm otherwise truly fond of: it can be redundant with Imoen which is the core companion of SoA.

    I have found however a middle ground: I let Imoen take care of traps and locks, and I specialize the Shadowdancer into sneaking (obviously!) and detect illusion instead.
    This way, they share the skills intelligently, which is not bad considering how many points the Shadowdancer need just for sneaking (a perfect sneaker must have 200 in hide in shadows and 200 in move silently)

    Another possible thing is to dual-class the shadowdancer just after you reach the 200/200 so there is no risk of dependency at all.
    Shadowmages (shadowdancer => mage) and blackblades (shadowdancer => fighter) are powerful hybrids, even if you lose the shadowdancer HLAs
  • obilieobilie Member Posts: 44
    @Moonheart Exactly, Imoen VS Shadowdancer :(

    200 and 200 in both HIS and MS? I heard MS is better, that they are essentially the same with MS giving you more time after leaving the shadows. But I have no idea how much to invest in them. In Chapter 1 I already feel that being inside I basically always succeed, idk, maybe it was just luck but I had no trouble, literally just being out of the Irenicus Dungeon, to sneak into the huge building in the Bridge district and rob everything there. Not much, but I felt like WOW I am invisibleeee!

    I did not want to dual class since this is my first time, moreover I feel so many chars in BG are multi-classed and I felt just "I'd like to be a great Shadowdancer, sneaking, levelling fast..."
    I already have like 100 open locks and 100 trap detection.
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    @obilie You might consider looking at this excellent guide by Montresor to help you with BG2. sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/Walkthrough2/SoA/SoA-index.php. The quest list for chapters 2/6 is really useful. It doesn't have the EE content included, so I also look at Haeravon's guide as well for that. gamefaqs.com/pc/663934-baldurs-gate-ii-enhanced-edition/faqs/68513.
    JuliusBorisov
  • obilieobilie Member Posts: 44
    @mf2112 thank you ! <3
    mf2112
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    edited June 2016
    obilie said:

    @Moonheart Exactly, Imoen VS Shadowdancer :(

    200 and 200 in both HIS and MS? I heard MS is better, that they are essentially the same with MS giving you more time after leaving the shadows. But I have no idea how much to invest in them. In Chapter 1 I already feel that being inside I basically always succeed, idk, maybe it was just luck but I had no trouble, literally just being out of the Irenicus Dungeon, to sneak into the huge building in the Bridge district and rob everything there. Not much, but I felt like WOW I am invisibleeee!

    Tests have been run by some players a long time ago, and we discovered that you need 200/200 to reach the top of sneaking. MS is better than HIS, but both are cumulative at the end, so the best is to increase MS to 200, then HIS to 200...

    If you feel invisible at Chapter I, know that the difficulty to sneak also increase with time, thus, it is useful at the end to cap the sneaking skills.
    mf2112obilie
  • obilieobilie Member Posts: 44
    @Moonheart Thank you, will keep that in mind! Will do MS 200 and then HiS 200 :)
  • IhatememesIhatememes Member Posts: 29
    I personally would never bring more than 2 clerics/druids. I think your party setup will be a pain in the ass even at lower difficulties.

    You'll need spells and summonings every time to kill off monsters, it's fine at first but then you'll run into enemies who cast deathspell (instakills all summons, and enemies with magic immunities/resistances like golems and endurance fights where u can't rest etc.
    obilie
  • obilieobilie Member Posts: 44
    @Ihatememes Thanks for your insight - I think it makes sense. We have Jaheria, Aerie and Viconia in our two player game but we agreed on it deliberately so everyone could taste one melee, one mage and one cleric character and the game is beatable that way.

    I am not sure know which party setup will a pain in the ass since we have mentioned quite a few options here already (plus there is this other multiplayer BG I play with my partner).

    Could you write more, if you feel like writing? :)
  • obilieobilie Member Posts: 44
    edited July 2016
    PS: I could not find any option to setup email notifications when my thread is commented on or if I am mentioned in a comment.
    Is it possible?
  • GallengerGallenger Member Posts: 400
    edited July 2016
    I wouldn't worry about the divine caster load - Jaheira can be played as a straight tank without really taking her spells into consideration. Yes, she has crappier weapon options than a pure fighter, but having some blunt damage in your front line is *great* because you'll encounter lots of enemies throughout the game that are highly resistant or immune to slashing and piercing weapons - which will cause you to struggle. Her spells, particularly once she can cast Iron Skins will put her in the same tanky territory as your Dwarven Defender friend because she'll only have to worry about fireballs and other spells damaging her - while in melee combat it will take quite a number of hits to drop her iron skins (assuming they hit at all since you can deck her out in lots of armor anyways which should carry you late into the game).

    So for your party set up in the start of the thread the way to operate would be to:

    Front-line with melee most of the time (or generally always) Jahiera and your Dwarven Defender buddy.

    You will want to make make sure (as often as possible) that enemies are attacking them - if that means they need to walk out a little further to draw aggro that's fine (since in a real PnP game you usually have a scout out in front... or failing that your armored high CON guys out front! lol). Jaheira's spell casting will mainly be focused on - a few heals to cut down on potion need (since potions of extra-healing are *somewhat* rare, and regular healing potions do almost nothing for you in BG2) her insect spells, her summons (nature's ally, fire elements, and her bug-swarm summons - along with Iron Skins. Jaheira can carry the tank load.

    I would focus Viconia on buffing and debuffing - Jaheira won't really need any specific buffs (she will have Iron skins - you can add barkskins too to give her a bonus to her saves lol). So Viconia will have *lots* of available spell slots and you have a lot of very interesting buff and debuff spells for her to choose from at almost every level - and for big fights, you could give her some of the STR buffing spells to engage her in melee or just stick to having her use a sling with her high Dex - or to have her as a back up tank if you need to block 3 character's worth of space (it will be very important that Aerie and Neera not get attacked at close range). Also her animate dead will give you the god-tier skeletal warriors sooner than anybody else :D

    I would use Aerie's cleric component as a heal-bot - mainly because Jaheira won't likely need anything from Aerie, and Viconia will have more spells and higher level spells more quickly than Aerie so she can provide all of the buffs/debuffs and offensive spells you'll need from the divine school so Aeire can provide most of the healing and a few buffs here and there as needed. She's mainly your second mage as opposed to a cleric in this scenario - she's like icing on a cake for your party :D. Cake is nice by itself, but good icing really puts it over the top lol.

    Neera will cover your arcane casting needs and be the batman of your party lol. Wizards of basically any type are great as long as you use the right spells and you keep them from getting squashed early in fights.

    Your character might be somewhat troublesome - because you're the only rogue you've got you'll *need* to take *some* trap finding and lock-picking - HOWEVER if you intend to pick up Imoen at some point (I'd suggest dropping Viconia or Aerie - with preference for droppage going to Aerie - Jaheira and Vic will just have to pick up more healing spells - but by then should have the slots for it - losing Aerie hurts less because Imoen is a mage so you're only losing her cleric component) in her favor if that's something you want to do or if you end up going super good-guy and don't have any mods that'll make Viconia stay in the party). You can use potions of thievery and perception to get around having a fairly low open locks + find traps early if you desire should you wish to go in more for hiding. However, it's not *really* necessary to go in for hiding much unless you really derive a lot of fun from stabby-stabby game play lol - because you'll have two wizards in your party nearly from day one (Aerie and Neera) who can both be made to have access to improved invisibility which will allow you to get at least one stabby-stabby off and the duration is fairly long so you'll just be invisible a lot of the time lol. There are some good level 4 spells - but between two arcane casters and a ring of sandthief, invis potions, and so forth you should basically never be put into a position where you *need* to use your backstabbing ability but can't because you're out of ways to conceal yourself - as you gain levels you'll be able to skimp more - master thievery potions give you +40% to pick lock and pick pocket and the potions of perception will give you +20% more on top of that, so you shouldn't run into *too* many situations where you'll just be totally unable to open locks or disarm traps with a bare minimum of points invested into open locks (60% gain from potions - also some items will boost this even more). It may be a bit pricey, but with so many casters equipment won't be as important.
    obilie
  • obilieobilie Member Posts: 44
    @Gallenger Thank you!!

    Some thoughts:

    - "because you'll have two wizards in your party nearly from day one (Aerie and Neera) who can both be made to have access to improved invisibility which will allow you to get at least one stabby-stabby off and the duration is fairly long so you'll just be invisible a lot of the time lol. "
    I have no trouble hiding during the fight multiple times - would invisibility help me? It would disappear after the first attack anyway, wouldn't it?

    - Surprisinly, they hit Jaheira MORE than ME -and she has all of the heavy armor.

    - I think we lack a one more melee character (instead of Aerie) as many have agreed here previsouly, but sure, this party should be doable.

    - I have no problems picking any locks or traps or hiding. The only thing I am not good at is finding illusions and pickpocketing.
  • GallengerGallenger Member Posts: 400
    edited July 2016
    Regular invisibility per level 2 would indeed cease to function after your first attack - with improved invisibility you will continue to be invisible should you stop attacking for a bit of time (basically the same as hitting the hide button again and waiting for confirmation). If you 're ok with hiding as-is the only benefit improved invis would give you is that enemies couldn't directly target you with spells, and would take a -4 penalty (IIRC) to attacks against you once you reveal yourself. So Improved Invis never hurt anybody :D lol.

    :( It will get better for Jaheira once she gets iron skins - then she'll be able to tank a lot more hits. Way-late game AC becomes irrelevant and everybody just hits everybody most of the time but her ironskins will continue to work :D

    I'd say 2 melee characters is just fine as long as you're using a good mix of spells and summons. I presume you're using your character as a 3rd melee fighter anyhow for stabby-stabby action so that more or less fills the role that a dps oriented fighter would fill (since in that situation usually the thief types would only very rarely be able to enter into melee purely because of space constraints lol).

    Find illusion is *pretty* late for most rogue characters so I wouldn't be too worried about it just yet :D Plus you've got plenty of access to true-sight which will obviate the points spent there - so I wouldn't say it's a top priority anyhow unless you *really* want those spell slots freed up ASAP.

    With all your casters you should be able to CC like nobody's business anyhow so the added blocking power you'd get from 3 warrior class types would be mostly negated.
  • obilieobilie Member Posts: 44
    "With all your casters you should be able to CC like nobody's business anyhow so the added blocking power you'd get from 3 warrior class types would be mostly negated." - I have never tried Chain Contingency since I am new, but I will see :)

    What about pickpocketing? I already have find traps and pick locks 100 both (which is enough for the whole game basically) and I was advised to invest into HiS and MS until both are 200.

    I indeed do try to stab but the thing is with two players playing it is very hard to coordinate the pause button - I need to synchronise my actions so I click HIDE in the right time before the right pause. Had it been only me playing, I could focus on my stabs more, and synchronise them well. Here it often happens that I just miss the round, or stand, or just attack. There is often too many pauses and I find it hard to hide, move and backstab.
  • GallengerGallenger Member Posts: 400
    edited July 2016
    pick pocket's value is marginal at best - it can give you access to a *few* big ticket items in the series - but none of which are *so* powerful that they'd be considered must-have. I'd hazard a guess and say many players don't even bother with it at all unless there is a very specific item or two they're going for - and even then you can boost it by 40% with potions of master thievery :D

    Doing lots and lots of contingencies is nice but not *truly* necessary to play well with 2 casters - the biggest and best thing you'll have are 2 castings of lower resist, a casting of breach and a casting of pierce magic, or greater malison + any save or else(die) spell. For example, greater malison cast by imoen/neera followed up by a casting of glitterdust from Aerie has a pretty solid shot of blinding all of the enemies you're fighting (so long as they don't have magic resistance or function without eyes lol). Needless to say, blinded enemies really suck at fighting lol. The same can be done with any variety of spells (slow, glitterdust, dire charm, dominate, finger of death, etc). But there is something to be said for having the ability to drop 3 skull traps at once lol.

    Improved invis may be able to help with your coordination issues - you could also try setting the auto pause to come at the end of every round which would slow the game down a bit but free things up a bit so you'd have a predictable pause every 6 seconds instead of willy-nilly.

    obilie
  • dockaboomskidockaboomski Member Posts: 440
    I cannot play a runthrough of BG2 without Jan, so try him.
  • obilieobilie Member Posts: 44
    @Gallenger thank you for you reply!

    PS: are there any e-mail notifications really?

    I will try and see the two casters as soon as we pick Aerie again after finishing Valygar's quest.
    We often run into problems how to get rid of chaos, confusion, stuns etc.
    Or mental domination when our character turns hostile, so I guess Viconia should have more protective spells. But I find it hard to waste Death Ward and Chaotic Commands BEFORE a fight when I do not know who is awaiting us. And we want to avoid reloading and meta-gaming.
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    obilie said:

    @Gallenger thank you for you reply!

    PS: are there any e-mail notifications really?

    I will try and see the two casters as soon as we pick Aerie again after finishing Valygar's quest.
    We often run into problems how to get rid of chaos, confusion, stuns etc.
    Or mental domination when our character turns hostile, so I guess Viconia should have more protective spells. But I find it hard to waste Death Ward and Chaotic Commands BEFORE a fight when I do not know who is awaiting us. And we want to avoid reloading and meta-gaming.

    Fortunately those particular two spells Death Ward and Chaotic Commands have pretty long durations so you could cast them in advance and not be meta-gaming. I usually try keep them active on my scouting characters.
    obilie
  • GallengerGallenger Member Posts: 400
    Well sometimes you're just going to be effected by that kind of stuff - it's not always possible to buff or avoid it - just have dispels or charms on tap to try to counter it :D Your dwarf character ought to have really high saves too so having him walk up a bit to tank things like umber hulk's and their confusion would be good since it's unlikely they'd be able to effect him unless he rolls poorly.
    obilie
  • IhatememesIhatememes Member Posts: 29
    edited July 2016
    obilie said:

    @Ihatememes Thanks for your insight - I think it makes sense. We have Jaheria, Aerie and Viconia in our two player game but we agreed on it deliberately so everyone could taste one melee, one mage and one cleric character and the game is beatable that way.

    I am not sure know which party setup will a pain in the ass since we have mentioned quite a few options here already (plus there is this other multiplayer BG I play with my partner).

    Could you write more, if you feel like writing? :)


    I think the one with Rasaad and Minsc looks solid, just save up for the strength belt at Ribald's shop early and give it to Rasaad and those two will beat the snot out of everything. For me personally I want 2 melee fighters who can just dive in without any prep if you get ambushed while traveling or trying to rest.
    obilie
  • obilieobilie Member Posts: 44
    @Ihatememes Hiya and thanks! I forgot to check back here for answers.

    I am not sure which setup that was..?

    Me, shadowdancer
    Neera
    Minsc
    Rasaad
    Jaheira
    Aerie?

    Viconia?

  • obilieobilie Member Posts: 44
    Btw @Moonheart - do you think one is missing a LOT when not trying the party you have mentioned earlier (the one developers may have had in their mind) - Player (Shadowdancer), Jaheira, Minsc, Aerie, Imoen and Haer'Dalis - and taking different characters or a smaller party (with or without some of these characters) and hence not taking all 6?

    Thanks a lot :)
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