I think the game is kind of a balance in contradictions in that aspect. Is it "normal" that a group of people, even heroes, could go through 5 or 6 decent scaled battles in unknown, harsh, and hostile environments before having to rest? Even allowing for healing potions and spells, going through fight after fight has got to take some of toll on the body. I don't know if any of you have ever swung a sword in a fight before, I did years ago with the SCA and it is hard to do for more than a few minutes effectively. But you could conceivably finish off Melissan within a few weeks or less after getting out of Irenicus dungeon, gaining unimaginable levels of power while doing so. It is possible that the Bhaalspawn could do that being of godly heritage. But the others in the group gain power equally and some are arguably more powerful than charname depending on the party composition.
On the other hand the designers have to allow for all sorts of playstyles, if someone wants to thoroughly explore every single area and takes two years to finish because they don't have a cleric and have to "rest until healed" every single time then the game can't break. Or else you have people saying "i'm being railroaded" because the game makes you complete within a certain timeframe. And to be honest if I were DM'ing a PnP game I would have at least that much time progress for an adventure of this scale.
Just take Watcher's keep as an example. In a PnP game, I am thinking that should take several weeks if not months of game time realistically. I would guess that most players here finish it within 5-6 days of game time at most from accounts I have read here and watched on video playthroughs.
To have a group of characters go from 8th-11th level range to 25th-30th level to end ToB, I would take a minimum of two years of game time in a PnP game. Even that feels short to me saying it out loud. 5-7 years seems better in game time. 20 years old starting out, then take a few years to get to that level of renown and experience and hubris to challenge for a spot among the gods.
@rapsam2003 Yes. I wasn't asking about PnP so your answer was very confusing. So do you find BG too hard without resting after every battle? Or what makes you think so?
To get back to the OP topic, in most any party I run I have at least two clerics or a cleric and a druid, that works for me to have "enough" healing. With 2 I don't rest after every battle since it doesn't feel natural in most places in the game. Plus it would feel odd to rest, then fight a battle for what, 5 or 6 rounds, then cast for a few rounds to heal everyone and then rest again after 10 minutes.
@rapsam2003 Yes. I wasn't asking about PnP so your answer was very confusing.
Fair enough. I was just going off of what Jouni said and drawing a clear difference between computer systems for D&D & PnP.
So do you find BG too hard without resting after every battle? Or what makes you think so? Not too hard, really. More like, I frequently find myself in trouble before "boss battles" if I don't rest. I tend to go nuts on spells though, so that's probably my fault. LOL
There's a slight flaw in your logic. You're assuming that the PnP implementations are balanced in the same manner as the computer adaptations. That couldn't be further from the truth. When a game dev team, for games like this, decides to allow resting anywhere, I can assure you that they balance the game with the idea of resting anywhere in mind. It's not "against the spirit of the game", because the balance is for the computer adaptations. You can NOT treat computer adaptations in the same manner that you treat PnP adaptations.
The classes are still designed for traditional AD&D gameplay. Warriors remain effective from encounter to encounter, while wizards carry a few tactical nukes but become weak once they have used the nukes. If you assume that you have a fresh mage for each major battle, most characters in the party become redundant.
BG2 has a lot of battles that are quite challenging to a party that has to conserve its resources but trivial against the full power of the party. The dragon in Watcher's Keep is a good example of this. If the party always rests after such battles, the battles are just tedious filler that makes the game artificially longer. On the other hand, if the party faces multiple similar encounters in a row, the encounters remain challenging and make the game more interesting.
Game developers allow resting anywhere, because they're not sadists. If it's possible to go to a safe place to rest and then return to the dungeon, some players will do so repeatedly. Then it's just common sense to remove the tedious travel between the dungeon and the resting place and allow resting in the dungeon. Also, first-time players may save the game after barely winning a difficult battle, only to discover that there's another difficult battle ahead. Again it's just common sense to allow the party to recover instead of forcing the player to reload an earlier save.
To have a group of characters go from 8th-11th level range to 25th-30th level to end ToB, I would take a minimum of two years of game time in a PnP game. Even that feels short to me saying it out loud. 5-7 years seems better in game time. 20 years old starting out, then take a few years to get to that level of renown and experience and hubris to challenge for a spot among the gods.
Based on what I've seen, the campaign would last decades of game time, but the characters would see action on maybe a hundred days. The Baldur's Gate series basically takes the traditional D&D campaign from first level wimps to demigods, and condenses it into a single year by removing the gaps between the adventures.
Day 500 is about 4x more than what my (almost) completionist playthroughs take.
Traditional (A)D&D game mechanics are based on abilitites with limited uses per day. This leads to dungeon design, where encounters and traps wear the party down before they can face the boss. Larger dungeons might have opportunities to rest, but typically not on every level and definitely not before boss battles. Computer adaptations allow you to rest almost anywhere, but doing so is against the spirit of the game and amounts to playing at a lower difficulty level. Actually lowering the difficulty level offers a less tedious way to reach the same goal.
You're being a lot judgemental for someone that know nothing about why my day count is so high.
1- In this playthrough, I romanced Aerie, Neera, Viconia and Jaheira by speed rushing their love banters. Aerie has 24 love banters, Viconia 38, Jaheira 35 (+sidequests) and Neera god know how, but certainly no less than Aerie, so let's say a minimum of 24, for a minimum total of 121 banters. To speed rush those love banters, you have to rest 3 days of game time to trigger each banter, so I rested a total of 363 days just to speed rush the romances. It remains 137 days after that.
2- You have also to know that I play on mobile device, during my lunch pauses which take place in an area exposed to RL sunrays. This means that EVERY TIME night falls in the game, I can't see shit on my screen, so I'm forced to rest to return in game daytime... which means that one third of my game time is due to the limitations my device. 127 /3 = 45 days skipped because of luminosity problems, it remains 92 days after that
3- Finaly, I'm really really lazy with healing spells. Resting is just so much faster that clic on my cleric, then clic on the spell button, then clic on an healing spell icon, then clic on the target, then wait for the casting time that I clic on rest even for 1hp lost simply because it's a friggin lot faster. Now, by curiosity, before writing this answer, I took an old save in one of the hardest dungeon I completed and did no rest at all... and you know what? My Viconia didn't had to cast even 25% of her healing spells to sustain the life of my party, and Jaheira did no healing at all. This means that on that probably 70-80% of the remaining days are just purely due to my lazyness, since I only truly need to rest after a nuke, something I only do with the hardest targets of the game and certainly not once every 2-3 rooms like I do. 92 - 70% = 28 days finaly remaining
28 days, for a screenshot which was taken at a point where 90% of the game content is completed. This is a lot less than the game time you just annouced for your own completionist run.
I hope this will close this debate and allow us to return to the real topic of this thread.
Now, by curiosity, before writing this answer, I took an old save in one of the hardest dungeon I completed and did no rest at all... and you know what? My Viconia didn't had to cast even 25% of her healing spells to sustain the life of my party, and Jaheira did no healing at all.
Remember that this was about giving Robe of Vecna to a dedicated mage for overkill spellcasting, especially during Time Stop. If that's a good reason for giving the robe to a particular character, your party must depend on that mage to win difficult battles. But if that's the case, then you probably run out of high-level spells after a couple of major battles, forcing you to rest.
Now, your experiment shows that your party is perfectly capable of completing a major dungeon without resting. Therefore it doesn't rely that much on magic support, and the benefit of giving Robe of Vecna to a dedicated mage is quite insignificant.
To return to the main topic, @obilie, I think you have not to worry too much about your team.
In my current party, which is composed of a Dragon Disciple, Imoen, Jaheira, Rasaad, Viconia and Minsc, only three are truly taking an active part in the adventure: - my protagonist for arcane firepower - Rasaad for physical burst - Imoen for thievery business
The three other are only here for flavor, I don't even truly need Viconia since I could give an item of regeneration to the three main characters
This means that as soon you have those 3 kinds of characters, you are already perfectly fine, and since you already set your mind on a Shadowdancer (fulfiling the role of thief) and Neera (suited for the arcane firepower), the only true question you should ask yourself is: who could be my physical burster?
The role of the physical burster is IMHO two-folds: - Economize the spells of the arcanist by taking out as much "weaklings" possible without needing support - Hit hard on the really rare targets completly immune to magic (like half-liches)
My prefered character for this role, as you have probably understood earlier, is Rasaad. Recently @Arunsun also pointed out to me that Dorn is very good too for this, but you want a good/neutral party, so he doesn't suit Amonen is probably a decent solution if you truly don't like Rasaad, since he can use the Crom Fraeyr + increase his durability with his divine spells, and some people could probably suggest other options too...
Anyway, as soon you'll have picked someone for this role, it won't truly matter who you take for the 3 remaning spots. Take Aerie if you like her. I took Minsc myself, just for his dialogs, and my 3 main characters just don't need him at all to destroy everything in their path.
Remember that this was about giving Robe of Vecna to a dedicated mage for overkill spellcasting, especially during Time Stop. If that's a good reason for giving the robe to a particular character, your party must depend on that mage to win difficult battles. But if that's the case, then you probably run out of high-level spells after a couple of major battles, forcing you to rest.
Now, your experiment shows that your party is perfectly capable of completing a major dungeon without resting. Therefore it doesn't rely that much on magic support, and the benefit of giving Robe of Vecna to a dedicated mage is quite insignificant.
It is not insignificant at all.
The only reason why I don't need to rest is that there is not enough "major battles" in a dungeon to deplete a dedicated mage correctly used from his spells even once: 1- Most of time, there is only one major battle within a dungeon, everything else, Rasaad solo it 2- With Project Image, a dedicated mage can cast his full arsenal of spells 6 times per dungeon, which is a lot more than needed, since you can deal with a major battle with only half of the spell stock 3- And even if I needed more, something that never happened once, you can wish for recover your spells
But don't get it wrong: my dedicated mage will be totaly unable to win those "major battles" without the Robe of Vecna. The Robe of Vecna, on a epic arcane spellcaster is the difference between be able to do in a single round 80 damage, or 600. This is a colossal difference, the difference between kill an opponent before he has the opportunity to do anything, and kill the opponent after he killed half of your party, if not the whole.
Aerie will be unable to do anything like that with the Robe, as long you keep her in a context where she only get a sixth of the xp rewards, because her spell progression will be too slow. In a 3 man party, things would be a lot different, but this is not what the op is talking about.
@obilie So you now have a number of options to think over, from a solo-esque mage strategy to a full party, and various options on gear distribution which I have found to continuously change throughout the game as I find new and better stuff, my old stuff gets handed down to other party members. Hopefully this has helped more than it has confused.
The only reason why I don't need to rest is that there is not enough "major battles" in a dungeon to deplete a dedicated mage correctly used from his spells even once: 1- Most of time, there is only one major battle within a dungeon, everything else, Rasaad solo it 2- With Project Image, a dedicated mage can cast his full arsenal of spells 6 times per dungeon, which is a lot more than needed, since you can deal with a major battle with only half of the spell stock 3- And even if I needed more, something that never happened once, you can wish for recover your spells
But don't get it wrong: my dedicated mage will be totaly unable to win those "major battles" without the Robe of Vecna. The Robe of Vecna, on a epic arcane spellcaster is the difference between be able to do in a single round 80 damage, or 600. This is a colossal difference, the difference between kill an opponent before he has the opportunity to do anything, and kill the opponent after he killed half of your party, if not the whole.
Aerie will be unable to do anything like that with the Robe, as long you keep her in a context where she only get a sixth of the xp rewards, because her spell progression will be too slow. In a 3 man party, things would be a lot different, but this is not what the op is talking about.
A few points:
If there is only one major battle in a dungeon, it's not a major dungeon.
The first half of the game is much more difficult than the second half, because your characters gain power faster than their enemies. Therefore character/equipment choices should be made with the early game in mind.
What a character can do in a single round is mostly irrelevant. The real measure is whether you as a player can win the battles without too much effort and tedium.
The primary source of difficulty in BG2 is not knowing what to expect and what works against which opponents. On the first playthrough, characters that can react effectively to a wide range of unexpected situations (such as Aerie with Robe of Vecna) are more useful than characters that are powerful if you know in advance what to do. Once you have completed the game a couple of times, you probably know enough to make the game easy with almost any party.
@mf2112 Thanks for your response - there is so much to learn
I think I understand both @Moonheart 's argument and the opposing one - the need greater of a divine caster especially earlier in the game. Having not played the game beyond Chapter 3 (and definitely playing it a almost like a complete unwise newbie) I cannot say anything about this really, just silently watch the discussion. It seems like there is the argument that Neera always has a more useful and powerful arsenal of spells than Aerie, regardless of her level. And this is an argument indeed.
However, I think as @mf2112 has said, it is beyond wonderful that the game accommodates different playstyles - it is amazing that there is not a single and the most powerful way everyone uses and tries to attain. Additionally, I personally find the component of fun and variety more important that staightforward power.
The primary source of difficulty in BG2 is not knowing what to expect and what works against which opponents. On the first playthrough, characters that can react effectively to a wide range of unexpected situations (such as Aerie with Robe of Vecna) are more useful than characters that are powerful if you know in advance what to do. Once you have completed the game a couple of times, you probably know enough to make the game easy with almost any party.
@Jouni THIS - I find this to be exactly how I feel, the game is very hard since as a newbie I have no idea what works against whom. Yet @Moonheart 's argument, to an outsider, seems viable as well - being strong is a way how to finish enemies fast, and it seems that Neera can be very strong.
@Moonheart thank you for the advice , I guess now I have to decide whheter I want 3, 4, 5 or 6 characters - I know some people say it is more important to enjoy the game and that the game is much more varied and deep with a larger party. Mayb 3 characters is too little for me, but maybe having 4 or 5 would allow me to level faster yet still enjoy the depth more? Maybe it is best for a first time to use the full party (and/or have the 6th character as a wild card). I will see. As @mf2112 has pointed out, there is just too many ways how to play
1. If there is only one major battle in a dungeon, it's not a major dungeon.
Except that many battles described as "major" by some other people are just not "major" for me. For me, nothing is major if I don't have to cast spells to win... so, for exemple, for me, the Twisted Rune is a minor battle.
3. What a character can do in a single round is mostly irrelevant. The real measure is whether you as a player can win the battles without too much effort and tedium
It's a lot more tedium to me to win a difficult battle by casting one spell per round that ends instantly the same battle in the first round with a simple stack of spells.... so I do find this REALLY REALLY relevant.
4. The primary source of difficulty in BG2 is not knowing what to expect and what works against which opponents. On the first playthrough, characters that can react effectively to a wide range of unexpected situations (such as Aerie with Robe of Vecna) are more useful than characters that are powerful if you know in advance what to do.
Neera is more powerful than Aerie against unexpected situations because she has the ability, ableit to some risk, to cast spells she didn't even prepare first, while Aerie, if you meet something truly unexpected, will just not have the right spell for this situation ready.
Except that many battles described as "major" by some other people are just not "major" for me. For me, nothing is major if I don't have to cast spells to win... so, for exemple, for me, the Twisted Rune is a minor battle.
The Twisted Rune is just a single battle. It's not even a minor dungeon. The battle can be easy or hard, depending on when you try it, but it's still just a single battle.
A major dungeon would be something like the major chapter 2 quests (Umar Hills, Windspear Hills, De'Arnise Hold etc).
Neera is more powerful than Aerie against unexpected situations because she has the ability, ableit to some risk, to cast spells she didn't even prepare first, while Aerie, if you meet something truly unexpected, will just not have the right spell for this situation ready.
Aerie can memorize a large number of spells, and most of the relevant spells are low-level priest spells. Mages can't neutralize most status effects reliably or even protect other characters from them. Spells like Remove Paralysis and Negative Plane Protection regularly save the lives of careless warriors.
Both Aerie and Neera can both become quite powerful, especially when augmented by various equipment. Really that is a big difference for any character, which gear goes on which party member can make a big difference in how the game is played. Any character will shine if you give them all the best equipment. I generally use a balanced approach and hand things out evenly, and then switch things around situationally.
The Twisted Rune is just a single battle. It's not even a minor dungeon. The battle can be easy or hard, depending on when you try it, but it's still just a single battle.
A major dungeon would be something like the major chapter 2 quests (Umar Hills, Windspear Hills, De'Arnise Hold etc).
You're splitting hairs. I was merely illustrating with the Twited Rune that what is a "major battle" is subjective.
For exemple, you say that a dungeon with only one major battle is not a major dungeon, then you say that Umar Hills, Windspear Hills and De'Arnise Hold are major dungeons... but I'm sorry, each of those dungeons have for me one and only one major battle: - in Umar Hills, this is the shadow dragon - in Windspear Hills, this is the red dragon - in De'Arnise, the unique troll
Aerie can memorize a large number of spells, and most of the relevant spells are low-level priest spells. Mages can't neutralize most status effects reliably or even protect other characters from them. Spells like Remove Paralysis and Negative Plane Protection regularly save the lives of careless warriors.
I never casted them in the middle of a battle even during my first playthrough, and nobody died from it.
For exemple, you say that a dungeon with only one major battle is not a major dungeon, then you say that Umar Hills, Windspear Hills and De'Arnise Hold are major dungeons... but I'm sorry, each of those dungeons have for me one and only one major battle: - in Umar Hills, this is the shadow dragon - in Windspear Hills, this is the red dragon - in De'Arnise, the unique troll
A major dungeon is something that has many levels and takes a long time to complete.
Umar Hills doesn't have that many difficult fights, but you're fighting large swarms of low-level enemies, which can wear the party down if you don't know what to do. The dragon is probably one of the hardest fights in the game (and the most difficult dragon) due to its level-draining breath.
Windspear Hills has some nasty ambushes that can do serious damage if you're not aware of them in advance. There are about four major battles (dragon, undead, golems, Samia), any one of which can be easy or hard, depending on your party. Even many of the minor encounters can be challenging, if you go there early.
De'Arnise Keep has a lot of fights that can be difficult, especially because you often go there early in the game. Trolls and Yuan-Ti are quite strong enemies, and the big group of trolls in the central hall approaches a major battle. The golems, the umber hulks, and the final battle are all certainly major battles.
I never casted them in the middle of a battle even during my first playthrough, and nobody died from it.
Then you're obviously a much better or much more careful player than I am. My characters often end up being held/stunned or get swarmed by level-draining undead.
@obilie Aerie is a very useful character to have all the way from the beginning of SoA to the end of ToB. There are a lot of different ways to play the game but if you do not like loading or leaving it to chance some of the cleric buffs are pretty much essential. Chaotic commands, remove fear (which is best cast before a battle), prot from evil, remove paralysis, free action, remove disease, bless and chant are a few of the better ones, my clerics seldom have slots available for heal spells to be honest, there are simply too many useful spells that are more valuable to have memorized, maybe with the exception of heal itself which is kind of awesome.
I would advice you to download SCS since its improvement of the AI is simply a must have. It makes the game so much better, it is not only for hardcore veterans.
There are a lot of exploits/cheese/whatever in the game and a lot of them involves mages. If you do not abuse them and prefer not to rest a few times in every dungeon I would advice you to play with a balanced party.
Project image for example is supposed to use up your spells, but it doesn't. Wish can be reload spammed until you get back all your spells etc etc.
To make your first run as fun as possible I would advice you to have at least 1 full mage, 1 part thief (lock/trap must haves, detect illusion almost must have with SCS, set trap pretty fantastic), 1 part cleric/druid (huge overlap) and a few fighter types. Melee types are there to save your spells/buffs from being cast in every battle and will for the greater part of the game make up most of your damage dealt. It makes the game easier to manage if one of your melee types tries to stack up on AC/saves/immunity items so that it can also act as a tank. Although strangely enough mages are the best tanks for the truly hard fights in BG2..
For a good party running from SoA until the end of ToB I would advice for story and power:
If you cant wait for Imoen to get a full mage I would advice you to pick up Nalia instead of Aerie or Jaheira unless you love reloading. If you love to reload Neera is your girl.
Right before you get to ToB you might want to kick one NPC to make room for another, I would probably get rid of Jaheira.
There are so many ways to combine different NPCs to create new and interesting playthroughs though, almost anything is viable. But having a solid party all the way makes for a more fun first run I think.
Remember wands in general and wands of spell striking in particular. Just a friendly piece of advice.
A major dungeon is something that has many levels and takes a long time to complete.
Umar Hills doesn't have that many difficult fights, but you're fighting large swarms of low-level enemies, which can wear the party down if you don't know what to do. The dragon is probably one of the hardest fights in the game (and the most difficult dragon) due to its level-draining breath.
Windspear Hills has some nasty ambushes that can do serious damage if you're not aware of them in advance. There are about four major battles (dragon, undead, golems, Samia), any one of which can be easy or hard, depending on your party. Even many of the minor encounters can be challenging, if you go there early.
De'Arnise Keep has a lot of fights that can be difficult, especially because you often go there early in the game. Trolls and Yuan-Ti are quite strong enemies, and the big group of trolls in the central hall approaches a major battle. The golems, the umber hulks, and the final battle are all certainly major battles
This is were you fail to understand: I'm saying that what is a "major battle" is subjective. Subjective means that the sense of will be different for each person you will ask to. You definition of a major battle is not mine, and you don't hold any authority to enforce your definition compared to mine: they have the same value and weight
So, how many major battle a dungeon can contain lies only in the eye of each individual players. To my eye, except for Watcher Keep, there is NO dungeon containing more than 2 major battle, and I can't even remember which dungeon contains two of them.
Additionnaly, arguing about how many major battle there is in a given dungeon and what is a major dungeon is irrelevant to the topic anyway.
The current important point of the topic is that @obilie wants Neera in the party, and with Neera in it, there is no real interest to have Aerie cast arcane spells before her 6.000.000xp count. So, Aerie will be stuck on divine spell casting in his party before that point, and this is something Viconia would do better.
However, as I pointed out, as long the three main roles who are magical striker, physical striker and thief are filled, it doesn't matter much who you take in addition, so her can take Viconia or Aerie as he feels to. But he needs to select a physical striker first.
How many major battle you think there is in a dungeon won't change this, so it is pointless to argue on this point. We should rather argue which would be the best physical striker for a good/neutral party including a shadowdancer, neera and jaheira.
I know we are all passionate about the game, but I think this is being taken too personally here and I would appreciate it if the tone were dialed back a notch please. These are issues of personal choice and playstyle. Thank you.
This is were you fail to understand: I'm saying that what is a "major battle" is subjective. Subjective means that the sense of will be different for each person you will ask to. You definition of a major battle is not mine, and you don't hold any authority to enforce your definition compared to mine: they have the same value and weight
"Major battle" is a game design concept. It's a battle that's more challenging than most battles in the area. It's something that presents a significant challenge to a party of appropriate power level, but it usually doesn't force the player to reload too many times or to use cheesy tactics. A major battle can be easy, if the party is more powerful than expected, if the player uses cheesy tactics, or if the characters have something that negates enemy powers.
The current important point of the topic is that @obilie wants Neera in the party, and with Neera in it, there is no real interest to have Aerie cast arcane spells before her 6.000.000xp count. So, Aerie will be stuck on divine spell casting in his party before that point, and this is something Viconia would do better.
I'm starting to think that this is a matter of playstyle. If you prefer to avoid bad luck (e.g. by being very careful, by knowing in advance what happens next, or by reloading when things go wrong), high-level mage spells are more useful. On the other hand, if you prefer to recover from bad luck, begin able to react with the appropriate low-level spell is what you need.
In the latter case, it's a good idea to have Neera as an offensive spellcaster and Aerie as a supporting spellcaster. Viconia and Jaheira are less useful in the supporting role, as they have less spell slots and no access to wizard spells. Still, having more than one supporting spellcaster is handy, as it makes it more likely that one of them can start casting immediately.
Thank you all for you contribution to the discussion, for helping me choose my tank and also to learn how to AoE a tibit more efficiently. I'll try Rasaad or Keldorn and also Mazzy.
Now I am a bit of uncertain about: 1.) The number of characters in my party - I may not need 6 after all? 2.) Aerie: if I make her leave, then there is only Jaheira with cleric spells and she lacks the restoration Viconia has. As this is my first time I thought I would not choose Viconia because of the hassle with my reputation - since the game caters to high reputation and good parties I thought why not, let me be the hero for my first time. So I am not sure if Jaheira is sufficient, so I'd keep Aerie mainly for her cleric spells, yet Viconia does this better. Hmm... 3.) My additional co-op multiplayer game consists of: - Shadowdancer - Dwarven Defender (amazing tank it seems to me) - Jaheira - Aerie - Viconia - Neera
We will agree that one Cleric has to go, right? And one more melee should be welcomed in, right? The thing is, this way both of us have our mains and one cleric and one mage basically, which is a nice split. Having 5 chars would make our gameplay uneven (but we could try) so either 4 chars or 6, and one Cleric has got to go. Which one? Viconia or Aerie (yet again?)? Viconia VS Aerie battle seems to linger.
I generally try to make my next playthrough with a different party composition than the last one since you can't get every NPC into the party and complete the game. With the number of available NPC's there is a huge variety in banters and styles. Montresor_SP has a good list here but not the EE NPC's unfortunately. I used to play exclusively good/neutral or evil/neutral parties, but now I like to include a mix of good and evil characters for more interesting banters. Some combinations won't work but it is fun to try. Good luck!
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On the other hand the designers have to allow for all sorts of playstyles, if someone wants to thoroughly explore every single area and takes two years to finish because they don't have a cleric and have to "rest until healed" every single time then the game can't break. Or else you have people saying "i'm being railroaded" because the game makes you complete within a certain timeframe. And to be honest if I were DM'ing a PnP game I would have at least that much time progress for an adventure of this scale.
Just take Watcher's keep as an example. In a PnP game, I am thinking that should take several weeks if not months of game time realistically. I would guess that most players here finish it within 5-6 days of game time at most from accounts I have read here and watched on video playthroughs.
To have a group of characters go from 8th-11th level range to 25th-30th level to end ToB, I would take a minimum of two years of game time in a PnP game. Even that feels short to me saying it out loud. 5-7 years seems better in game time. 20 years old starting out, then take a few years to get to that level of renown and experience and hubris to challenge for a spot among the gods.
PnP D&D is not.
Does that relay what I mean, clearly?
So do you find BG too hard without resting after every battle? Or what makes you think so?
Not too hard, really. More like, I frequently find myself in trouble before "boss battles" if I don't rest. I tend to go nuts on spells though, so that's probably my fault. LOL
BG2 has a lot of battles that are quite challenging to a party that has to conserve its resources but trivial against the full power of the party. The dragon in Watcher's Keep is a good example of this. If the party always rests after such battles, the battles are just tedious filler that makes the game artificially longer. On the other hand, if the party faces multiple similar encounters in a row, the encounters remain challenging and make the game more interesting.
Game developers allow resting anywhere, because they're not sadists. If it's possible to go to a safe place to rest and then return to the dungeon, some players will do so repeatedly. Then it's just common sense to remove the tedious travel between the dungeon and the resting place and allow resting in the dungeon. Also, first-time players may save the game after barely winning a difficult battle, only to discover that there's another difficult battle ahead. Again it's just common sense to allow the party to recover instead of forcing the player to reload an earlier save.
1- In this playthrough, I romanced Aerie, Neera, Viconia and Jaheira by speed rushing their love banters.
Aerie has 24 love banters, Viconia 38, Jaheira 35 (+sidequests) and Neera god know how, but certainly no less than Aerie, so let's say a minimum of 24, for a minimum total of 121 banters.
To speed rush those love banters, you have to rest 3 days of game time to trigger each banter, so I rested a total of 363 days just to speed rush the romances.
It remains 137 days after that.
2- You have also to know that I play on mobile device, during my lunch pauses which take place in an area exposed to RL sunrays.
This means that EVERY TIME night falls in the game, I can't see shit on my screen, so I'm forced to rest to return in game daytime... which means that one third of my game time is due to the limitations my device.
127 /3 = 45 days skipped because of luminosity problems, it remains 92 days after that
3- Finaly, I'm really really lazy with healing spells.
Resting is just so much faster that clic on my cleric, then clic on the spell button, then clic on an healing spell icon, then clic on the target, then wait for the casting time that I clic on rest even for 1hp lost simply because it's a friggin lot faster.
Now, by curiosity, before writing this answer, I took an old save in one of the hardest dungeon I completed and did no rest at all... and you know what? My Viconia didn't had to cast even 25% of her healing spells to sustain the life of my party, and Jaheira did no healing at all.
This means that on that probably 70-80% of the remaining days are just purely due to my lazyness, since I only truly need to rest after a nuke, something I only do with the hardest targets of the game and certainly not once every 2-3 rooms like I do.
92 - 70% = 28 days finaly remaining
28 days, for a screenshot which was taken at a point where 90% of the game content is completed.
This is a lot less than the game time you just annouced for your own completionist run.
I hope this will close this debate and allow us to return to the real topic of this thread.
Now, your experiment shows that your party is perfectly capable of completing a major dungeon without resting. Therefore it doesn't rely that much on magic support, and the benefit of giving Robe of Vecna to a dedicated mage is quite insignificant.
In my current party, which is composed of a Dragon Disciple, Imoen, Jaheira, Rasaad, Viconia and Minsc, only three are truly taking an active part in the adventure:
- my protagonist for arcane firepower
- Rasaad for physical burst
- Imoen for thievery business
The three other are only here for flavor, I don't even truly need Viconia since I could give an item of regeneration to the three main characters
This means that as soon you have those 3 kinds of characters, you are already perfectly fine, and since you already set your mind on a Shadowdancer (fulfiling the role of thief) and Neera (suited for the arcane firepower), the only true question you should ask yourself is: who could be my physical burster?
The role of the physical burster is IMHO two-folds:
- Economize the spells of the arcanist by taking out as much "weaklings" possible without needing support
- Hit hard on the really rare targets completly immune to magic (like half-liches)
My prefered character for this role, as you have probably understood earlier, is Rasaad.
Recently @Arunsun also pointed out to me that Dorn is very good too for this, but you want a good/neutral party, so he doesn't suit
Amonen is probably a decent solution if you truly don't like Rasaad, since he can use the Crom Fraeyr + increase his durability with his divine spells, and some people could probably suggest other options too...
Anyway, as soon you'll have picked someone for this role, it won't truly matter who you take for the 3 remaning spots.
Take Aerie if you like her. I took Minsc myself, just for his dialogs, and my 3 main characters just don't need him at all to destroy everything in their path.
The only reason why I don't need to rest is that there is not enough "major battles" in a dungeon to deplete a dedicated mage correctly used from his spells even once:
1- Most of time, there is only one major battle within a dungeon, everything else, Rasaad solo it
2- With Project Image, a dedicated mage can cast his full arsenal of spells 6 times per dungeon, which is a lot more than needed, since you can deal with a major battle with only half of the spell stock
3- And even if I needed more, something that never happened once, you can wish for recover your spells
But don't get it wrong: my dedicated mage will be totaly unable to win those "major battles" without the Robe of Vecna.
The Robe of Vecna, on a epic arcane spellcaster is the difference between be able to do in a single round 80 damage, or 600. This is a colossal difference, the difference between kill an opponent before he has the opportunity to do anything, and kill the opponent after he killed half of your party, if not the whole.
Aerie will be unable to do anything like that with the Robe, as long you keep her in a context where she only get a sixth of the xp rewards, because her spell progression will be too slow.
In a 3 man party, things would be a lot different, but this is not what the op is talking about.
I think I understand both @Moonheart 's argument and the opposing one - the need greater of a divine caster especially earlier in the game.
Having not played the game beyond Chapter 3 (and definitely playing it a almost like a complete unwise newbie) I cannot say anything about this really, just silently watch the discussion. It seems like there is the argument that Neera always has a more useful and powerful arsenal of spells than Aerie, regardless of her level. And this is an argument indeed.
However, I think as @mf2112 has said, it is beyond wonderful that the game accommodates different playstyles - it is amazing that there is not a single and the most powerful way everyone uses and tries to attain. Additionally, I personally find the component of fun and variety more important that staightforward power.
Thank you for the insights
@Moonheart thank you for the advice
Maybe it is best for a first time to use the full party (and/or have the 6th character as a wild card).
I will see. As @mf2112 has pointed out, there is just too many ways how to play
For me, nothing is major if I don't have to cast spells to win... so, for exemple, for me, the Twisted Rune is a minor battle. It's a lot more tedium to me to win a difficult battle by casting one spell per round that ends instantly the same battle in the first round with a simple stack of spells.... so I do find this REALLY REALLY relevant. Neera is more powerful than Aerie against unexpected situations because she has the ability, ableit to some risk, to cast spells she didn't even prepare first, while Aerie, if you meet something truly unexpected, will just not have the right spell for this situation ready.
A major dungeon would be something like the major chapter 2 quests (Umar Hills, Windspear Hills, De'Arnise Hold etc). Aerie can memorize a large number of spells, and most of the relevant spells are low-level priest spells. Mages can't neutralize most status effects reliably or even protect other characters from them. Spells like Remove Paralysis and Negative Plane Protection regularly save the lives of careless warriors.
For exemple, you say that a dungeon with only one major battle is not a major dungeon, then you say that Umar Hills, Windspear Hills and De'Arnise Hold are major dungeons... but I'm sorry, each of those dungeons have for me one and only one major battle:
- in Umar Hills, this is the shadow dragon
- in Windspear Hills, this is the red dragon
- in De'Arnise, the unique troll I never casted them in the middle of a battle even during my first playthrough, and nobody died from it.
Umar Hills doesn't have that many difficult fights, but you're fighting large swarms of low-level enemies, which can wear the party down if you don't know what to do. The dragon is probably one of the hardest fights in the game (and the most difficult dragon) due to its level-draining breath.
Windspear Hills has some nasty ambushes that can do serious damage if you're not aware of them in advance. There are about four major battles (dragon, undead, golems, Samia), any one of which can be easy or hard, depending on your party. Even many of the minor encounters can be challenging, if you go there early.
De'Arnise Keep has a lot of fights that can be difficult, especially because you often go there early in the game. Trolls and Yuan-Ti are quite strong enemies, and the big group of trolls in the central hall approaches a major battle. The golems, the umber hulks, and the final battle are all certainly major battles. Then you're obviously a much better or much more careful player than I am. My characters often end up being held/stunned or get swarmed by level-draining undead.
I would advice you to download SCS since its improvement of the AI is simply a must have. It makes the game so much better, it is not only for hardcore veterans.
There are a lot of exploits/cheese/whatever in the game and a lot of them involves mages. If you do not abuse them and prefer not to rest a few times in every dungeon I would advice you to play with a balanced party.
Project image for example is supposed to use up your spells, but it doesn't. Wish can be reload spammed until you get back all your spells etc etc.
To make your first run as fun as possible I would advice you to have at least 1 full mage, 1 part thief (lock/trap must haves, detect illusion almost must have with SCS, set trap pretty fantastic), 1 part cleric/druid (huge overlap) and a few fighter types. Melee types are there to save your spells/buffs from being cast in every battle and will for the greater part of the game make up most of your damage dealt. It makes the game easier to manage if one of your melee types tries to stack up on AC/saves/immunity items so that it can also act as a tank. Although strangely enough mages are the best tanks for the truly hard fights in BG2..
For a good party running from SoA until the end of ToB I would advice for story and power:
Aerie, Jan, Jaheira, Keldorn, Imoen, charname berserker (or anything except a thief really).
If you cant wait for Imoen to get a full mage I would advice you to pick up Nalia instead of Aerie or Jaheira unless you love reloading. If you love to reload Neera is your girl.
Right before you get to ToB you might want to kick one NPC to make room for another, I would probably get rid of Jaheira.
There are so many ways to combine different NPCs to create new and interesting playthroughs though, almost anything is viable. But having a solid party all the way makes for a more fun first run I think.
Remember wands in general and wands of spell striking in particular. Just a friendly piece of advice.
Subjective means that the sense of will be different for each person you will ask to.
You definition of a major battle is not mine, and you don't hold any authority to enforce your definition compared to mine: they have the same value and weight
So, how many major battle a dungeon can contain lies only in the eye of each individual players.
To my eye, except for Watcher Keep, there is NO dungeon containing more than 2 major battle, and I can't even remember which dungeon contains two of them.
Additionnaly, arguing about how many major battle there is in a given dungeon and what is a major dungeon is irrelevant to the topic anyway.
The current important point of the topic is that @obilie wants Neera in the party, and with Neera in it, there is no real interest to have Aerie cast arcane spells before her 6.000.000xp count.
So, Aerie will be stuck on divine spell casting in his party before that point, and this is something Viconia would do better.
However, as I pointed out, as long the three main roles who are magical striker, physical striker and thief are filled, it doesn't matter much who you take in addition, so her can take Viconia or Aerie as he feels to.
But he needs to select a physical striker first.
How many major battle you think there is in a dungeon won't change this, so it is pointless to argue on this point. We should rather argue which would be the best physical striker for a good/neutral party including a shadowdancer, neera and jaheira.
In the latter case, it's a good idea to have Neera as an offensive spellcaster and Aerie as a supporting spellcaster. Viconia and Jaheira are less useful in the supporting role, as they have less spell slots and no access to wizard spells. Still, having more than one supporting spellcaster is handy, as it makes it more likely that one of them can start casting immediately.
Thank you all for you contribution to the discussion, for helping me choose my tank and also to learn how to AoE a tibit more efficiently. I'll try Rasaad or Keldorn and also Mazzy.
Now I am a bit of uncertain about:
1.) The number of characters in my party - I may not need 6 after all?
2.) Aerie: if I make her leave, then there is only Jaheira with cleric spells and she lacks the restoration Viconia has. As this is my first time I thought I would not choose Viconia because of the hassle with my reputation - since the game caters to high reputation and good parties I thought why not, let me be the hero for my first time. So I am not sure if Jaheira is sufficient, so I'd keep Aerie mainly for her cleric spells, yet Viconia does this better. Hmm...
3.) My additional co-op multiplayer game consists of:
- Shadowdancer
- Dwarven Defender (amazing tank it seems to me)
- Jaheira
- Aerie
- Viconia
- Neera
We will agree that one Cleric has to go, right? And one more melee should be welcomed in, right?
The thing is, this way both of us have our mains and one cleric and one mage basically, which is a nice split. Having 5 chars would make our gameplay uneven (but we could try) so either 4 chars or 6, and one Cleric has got to go. Which one? Viconia or Aerie (yet again?)?
Viconia VS Aerie battle seems to linger.
Thank you in advance again
I used to play exclusively good/neutral or evil/neutral parties, but now I like to include a mix of good and evil characters for more interesting banters. Some combinations won't work but it is fun to try. Good luck!