Best, non-cheesy(?) and foolproof way to kill a SCS lich [Spoiler]

johntyl

First you need these 2 essentials to guarantee a high chance of success: a Mace of Disruption +2 (the better if its upgraded) and an Azuredge +3.

If you have Anomen (I think he's the best character for this tactic since he's a cleric and he's quite good with maces), have him wield the Mace of Disruption. Let any character with a good proficiency in axes wield Azuredge (Korgan if you have him). Get these 2 characters' THACO as low as possible (with potions of power or heroism) and any buffs and have your spellcaster cast haste (or improved haste if your level is high enough).

Next, surround the spot where you know the lich will spawn after the sarcophagus is opened. And once it turns hostile, WHACK! My Anomen did the killing blow the first time. And just to make sure this method wasn't a fluke, I tried it 2 more times and my main CHAR was the one who dealt the finishing blow the next 2 times.

I think this is quite a legit way to kill a lich since it is an undead. Though admittedly, I killed him before the SCS pre-casting and his chain contingency were effected but I did wait for him to turn hostile first. You can't blame my characters for reacting faster (Though one of the lich's spell did go through before the lich went down -> 2nd screenshoot) But I'm curious to find out what you guys think: do you consider this method to be cheesy since a lich in SCS should be quite a big thing?

P.S. I also had Keldorn wield Carsomyr+5 with a potion of magic resistance to boost his MR to 100% (as a backup plan) should my almost foolproof plan fail. I had the usual de-buff spells to bring down the lich's defences and have my melee characters keep whacking him to proc their weapons' destroy-undead ability.

JuliusBorisov

Well, the alternative would be to take off the lich's spell protections first (RRR, KRW, Pierce Magic), then take off his battle protections (Breach), then repeat the process when the lich resumes his protections. After that you can kill it.

userunfriendly

it is good. controlling spawns can work wonders... better would be installing item upgrade and using an improved hasted fighter with azuredge +4...insta kill if you time it right.

johntyl

userunfriendly said:

it is good. controlling spawns can work wonders... better would be installing item upgrade and using an improved hasted fighter with azuredge +4...insta kill if you time it right.

I already used the illithium to upgrade my Mace of Disruption

lunar

Korgan can not use Azuredge as he is evil. Unless I am mistaken it is unusable by wicked people.

johntyl

lunar said:

Korgan can not use Azuredge as he is evil. Unless I am mistaken it is unusable by wicked people.

Oh yes, you are right, my bad

semiticgoddess

Holy Word is more reliable, as the Mace of Disruption and Azuredge both require a failed save, albeit at a -4 penalty. For no-reload runs, you can't count on failed saves every time. Holy Word offers no save and imposes a deafness penalty for 50% spell failure, which stacks. Wizard Slayers using Fire Seeds can also impose high spell failure early on, at even lower levels, forcing the lich to use contingencies and spell triggers instead of its normal spells. Shadowdancers using Shadowstep can sap the duration of a lich's PFMW spells, as Shadowstep uses the time stop opcode, during which spell durations continue to tick.

In large areas like those of the Shade Lich and Nevaziah, you can also bait them with cheap summons, keeping the party at a distance, to draw out the lich's best spells and wear out their buffs before engaging them.

Protection from Undead works against SCS liches, to a point. They will attempt to dispel it with Remove Magic, cast on themselves (which you can avoid by running away when they're casting abjuration spells), and will also summons demons or Fallen Planetar to chase after you. The lich will sometimes use those demons and Planetars as targets, knowing that they will chase the player characters they cannot see.

johntyl

semiticgod said:

Protection from Undead works against SCS liches, to a point. They will attempt to dispel it with Remove Magic, cast on themselves (which you can avoid by running away when they're casting abjuration spells), and will also summons demons or Fallen Planetar to chase after you. The lich will sometimes use those demons and Planetars as targets, knowing that they will chase the player characters they cannot see.

Holy cow, they can do that??

semiticgoddess

@johntyl: SCS liches are very smart. They won't let Protection from Undead stop them. A lot of SCS enemies have counters for common player strategies.

userunfriendly

Tactics liches cast buffs via scroll, which can't be interrupted.

the lich in the docks is an easy kill with azuredge +4. Ignore the other fodder, blast it immediately as you walk in.

cheat in some illium and have both...

korgan can use azuredge if you cheat in use any item...

my philosophy is any game can be solved with liberal use of console commands...

Lord_Tansheron

userunfriendly said:

my philosophy is any game can be solved with liberal use of console commands...

My philosophy is rain is wet, which comes as about as much of a surprise :P

Personally I just don't use disruption weapons against Liches (do they even work against them with IR?), it's just too easy. Doubly so if you abuse dialogue and attack them while they're talking - you can oneshot several Liches that way before they cast a single spell.

Usually I'm just boring and go for the whole protection-dispel-protection-dispel dance. Takes a while, has risks, but hey these are super smart super old super powerful mages. It's not supposed to be a simple fight.

semiticgoddess

@Lord_Tansheron: Last I saw, disruption weapons worked against liches, but they used a save vs. spell with no penalty instead of the save vs. death at -4, so only Called Shot (or the IR Bone Club, I suppose) could allow them to work.

By the way, do you often use the IR Staff of Earth, Lord Tansheron? I noticed that it paralyzes the target using opcode 185 with no saving throw, bypassing MR, on 50% of hits, for 12 seconds. Ostensibly that would let it stun-lock basically everything short of dragons or plot-protected critters. I understand it's also sold in the Umar Hills, available early on, albeit at a steep price.

johntyl

Lord_Tansheron said:

Personally I just don't use disruption weapons against Liches (do they even work against them with IR?), it's just too easy. Doubly so if you abuse dialogue and attack them while they're talking - you can oneshot several Liches that way before they cast a single spell.

To be fair, I did wait for it to turn hostile first before I attack But it died before the SCS precasting and contingencies took effect.

Is IR installed together with SCS? If not, I'm not using IR so I guess that explains why it worked.

Lord_Tansheron

johntyl said:

Is IR installed together with SCS? If not, I'm not using IR so I guess that explains why it worked.

IR is a separate mod entirely. But do try it, it's amazing.

semiticgod said:

By the way, do you often use the IR Staff of Earth, Lord Tansheron? I noticed that it paralyzes the target using opcode 185 with no saving throw, bypassing MR, on 50% of hits, for 12 seconds.

Did not know that. Really wish I had more time to test, but hardly get to play lately. Don't ever marry.

Sounds like a bit of an OP item, if it can really paralyze just about anything like that. Might just be an oversight, I think the latest IR is still in its now nigh-eternal beta? @Demivrgvs any words on that staff?

userunfriendly

what is IR? is this one of the elemental staves you can get in the underdark?

Abi_Dalzim

userunfriendly said:

what is IR? is this one of the elemental staves you can get in the underdark?

The stave is sold in Ust Natha. IR is the Items Revisions mod.

userunfriendly

well G3 is currently down...anyone knows for how long?

Madae

Nothing cheesy about Protection from Undead. Those Lich's should have thought about that before trying to take over the world.

My favorite thing to do at the start of BG2 is grab a few scrolls, kill the Lich guarding Daystar, gather the pieces to Gaxx and murder him with Daystar as everyone cowers in the corner just outside of his aggro range. He just sits there. In fact, they all just sit there. It's conceivable to kill multiple Lich's with one scroll still active.

I usually wait until I finish the Cult of the Sightless Eye quest before I do all that, depending on when I feel like picking up Keldorn, but still...

mf2112

Madae said:

Nothing cheesy about Protection from Undead. Those Lich's should have thought about that before trying to take over the world.

My favorite thing to do at the start of BG2 is grab a few scrolls, kill the Lich guarding Daystar, gather the pieces to Gaxx and murder him with Daystar as everyone cowers in the corner just outside of his aggro range. He just sits there. In fact, they all just sit there. It's conceivable to kill multiple Lich's with one scroll still active.

I usually wait until I finish the Cult of the Sightless Eye quest before I do all that, depending on when I feel like picking up Keldorn, but still...

The only problem with that idea is that it won't work for very long on SCS liches. They will summon creatures to attack you, they will cast area spells on themselves to target you, but they won't just stand there. Much more challenging.

magisensei

Your method with mace of disruption and potions works but it is a little cheesy in itself requires the use of metagaming and that in itself is cheating but you also don't allow the lich to fully emerge before attacking.

If you walked up to the crypt totally unprepared because who actually walks around with the mace of disruption as their main weapon (it is after all just a +1 or maybe +2 weapon and there are better choices -- plus in order to upgrade it you have to know that it is upgradeable with the ore something you should not know; and really who sticks their hand into a pool of blood to actually pick up the mace - what a sick puppy you are to do that. ) would you really be able to get off that hit to instant kill the lich?

Demivrgvs

@Lord_Tansheron @semiticgod I just checked and IR's Staff of Earth does allow a save vs polymorph against its petrifying effect.

Lord_Tansheron

That's good to hear. Might still be a somewhat abusable weapon, depending on enemy saves. Will look that up when I'm on my home computer again. Maybe do some testing if and when I actually get to play some more.

semiticgoddess

Ah, that's right. I took an interest because enemy saves vs. polymorph don't go as low as saves vs. death or spell, and because it used opcode 185.

@Demivrgvs: My only concern is that it's a +2 weapon, and as far as I know, SR Enchanted Weapon works like the vanilla version rather than the EE spell, conjuring an enchanted weapon rather than making existing weapons strike as +3 ones. No stun-locking Planetars.

userunfriendly

semiticgod said:

@Demivrgvs: My only concern is that it's a +2 weapon, and as far as I know, SR Enchanted Weapon works like the vanilla version rather than the EE spell, conjuring an enchanted weapon rather than making existing weapons strike as +3 ones. No stun-locking Planetars.

mace of disruption strikes undead as if it was a +5 weapon.

Demivrgvs

@Lord_Tansheron @semiticgod I intentionally gave staves more powerful combat abilities to make up for their base stats (2handed with just 1d6 dmg - only slightly redeemed by dmg type and speed) but if you feel the petrifying effect is too powerful just let me know (% chance reduced from 50 to 33 maybe?). Btw, Flame of the North greatsword has a freezing effect which is pretty much the same thing with half duration and different "animation".

I'm tempted to split SR Enchanted Weapon into two different spells, keeping the old one as a Conjuration and using the new EE one as either Enchantment or Alteration. Btw, cannot wait to upgrade KR's Wizard Slayer, his Breaching Strike will finally work at full potential.

When it comes to fighting liches:
- IR do nerfed MoD's disrupting effect (save changed from -4 vs. death to no penalty vs. spell) but quite a few players still consider it too powerful, what do you guys think about it?
- IR changed ProUndead scrolls too but they should still be handy

johntyl

magisensei said:

Your method with mace of disruption and potions works but it is a little cheesy in itself requires the use of metagaming and that in itself is cheating but you also don't allow the lich to fully emerge before attacking.

If you walked up to the crypt totally unprepared because who actually walks around with the mace of disruption as their main weapon (it is after all just a +1 or maybe +2 weapon and there are better choices -- plus in order to upgrade it you have to know that it is upgradeable with the ore something you should not know; and really who sticks their hand into a pool of blood to actually pick up the mace - what a sick puppy you are to do that. ) would you really be able to get off that hit to instant kill the lich?

Well, fair enough about your point on metagaming, but if you think logically about it: I am about to open a sarcophagus with powerful magic surrounding it. Sarcophagus = undead, powerful magic = most likely a spellcasting undead = lich. Personally, the metagaming part doesn't really concern me as most of us here have completed BG at least once and have some, if not vague, recollections of it. What I'm more interested in is finding the most efficient way to deal with certain kind of enemies within the legit rules of the game and not being too cheesy about it

Lord_Tansheron

Demivrgvs said:

Btw, cannot wait to upgrade KR's Wizard Slayer, his Breaching Strike will finally work at full potential.

Cannot wait for KR in general, but I guess it'll be a while still

But then again, we've played this game for over 10 years, good mods are definitely a worthwhile long-term investment that I am very willing to wait for.

As for the weapons, I'll get back to you when I finally get time to test. In general though I'm always worried about anything that has a potential to "lock" opponents; it's not always OP, but there's certainly potential that needs to be kept an eye on.