And by the way, imagine you could get it as a one-time option for the Wish spell...
Of course there should be two versions of the wish, depending on your wisdom: Low-wisdom NPCs get him returned as a zombie, while high-wisdom NPCs get the option to restore him *fully* to life.
@JuliusBorisov Oh I know, in real D&D terms bringing him back would be simpler. Also, I'm well aware of the Keep Yoshimo mod, but I'm avoiding it until it is out of it's beta stage.
Also, I know a really cheap way to keep Yoshimo by exploiting the games dialogue triggers.
When you think about it, Yoshimo was a stroke of genius from the part of the original devs. Everything about him is designed to make him appealing to first time players just to screw them over after Spellhold:
- He's True Neutral, so he can fit in any party. - He gets along with everyone (save Haer'Dalis, but even then it's not a dealbreaker). - Bounty Hunter is as good as a single class Thief can get. - In case Charname is a thief or recruits Jan, he has good enough stats to dual-class to Fighter. - He's voiced by Maurice LaMarche.
16 years ago, when it was harder to stumble on spoilers unintentionally, that was a pretty awful surprise...
When you think about it, Yoshimo was a stroke of genius from the part of the original devs. Everything about him is designed to make him appealing to first time players just to screw them over after Spellhold:
- He's True Neutral, so he can fit in any party. - He gets along with everyone (save Haer'Dalis, but even then it's not a dealbreaker). - Bounty Hunter is as good as a single class Thief can get. - In case Charname is a thief or recruits Jan, he has good enough stats to dual-class to Fighter. - He's voiced by Maurice LaMarche.
16 years ago, when it was harder to stumble on spoilers unintentionally, that was a pretty awful surprise...
All this was enough to make me mistrust him from the start.
And by the way, imagine you could get it as a one-time option for the Wish spell...
Of course there should be two versions of the wish, depending on your wisdom: Low-wisdom NPCs get him returned as a zombie, while high-wisdom NPCs get the option to restore him *fully* to life.
The spel could also take you back in time when he was alive, only to die again. Wish spell is a nasty bit#h.
@Clumsy_Dwarf True, but the real range goes to Jim Cummings, he voiced Gorion, Minsc and Demogorgon. Or how about Kevin Michael Richardson? He was Sarevok, the BG1 Narrator and the "You must gather your party" voice
And Frank Welker who voiced Xzar, Elminster and the generic Doppelgangers. Yes the "Diiiiiiiiiiiiiie meaaaaaat!" is the same guy as "Ho there traveler, stay thy course and idulge an old man".
I would like instead to see more options that give depth to his betrayal, like he survives somehow your fight and chases you in the underdark and/or later Athkatla seeking to assassinate you. He is a bounty hunter after all!
@_Connacht_ I like that idea, I also would like that in a Mod combined with a very difficulty way to remove his geas and thus keep him in the party along with epic redemption content. I know there is a Keeping Yoshimo Mod, but it's still in the Beta Phase and I am unsure as to how deep it goes as I can't seem to find extended details.
@mf2112 Rule of drama, most likely. When you consider it a lot of BG2 things don't make sense in the wider realm of PnP... but I like it better this way. Plus it's entirely possible that Yoshimo may not want to come back, given his emphasis on personal honor, which is probably a Kara-Turan thing, if it's anything like the fictional depiction of feudal Japan (I'm not too familiar with background lore).
Also if you accept Yoshimo being Tamoko's brother as being canon then I'd understand more why Yoshimo probably wouldn't want to face the Bhaalspawn again, much less return to life.
Maybe one should bring the whole body to a temple, not just heart? Doesn´t Brynnlaw have local cleric services? Gee, there´s only so much sense the game having npc-only resurrection and raise dead, and no such options for enemies....
About that geas, shouldn´t he be lifted of fhim when the terms of spell are complete? Doesn´t it work the same way that a Contingency spell works?
Maybe one should bring the whole body to a temple, not just heart? Doesn´t Brynnlaw have local cleric services? Gee, there´s only so much sense the game having npc-only resurrection and raise dead, and no such options for enemies....
About that geas, shouldn´t he be lifted of fhim when the terms of spell are complete? Doesn´t it work the same way that a Contingency spell works?
I believe that the whole ressurection thing only happens because it is necessary for the game . 1) Because following the logic of high level characters that ad&d have us, there's a 1st level adventurer for every 10 normal citizens, and you double that number for each level above 1st, so there should be a 14th level character among every group of 81920 people! The chances of that one being a cleric who can ressurect people is even smaller.
2) as easy as it sounds for your player characters, acummulating hundreds or thousands of gold pieces is almost an impossible task for a regular npc.
@DJKajuru You're absolutely right, and even if you weren't we're forgetting one tiny detail...Yoshimo died under the effects of a geas, even the Fates couldn't bring him back to you. It would take Epic Level magic to return Yoshimo to life, perhaps even higher level than the NPCS would be at the end of Throne of Bhaal.
I would like instead to see more options that give depth to his betrayal, like he survives somehow your fight and chases you in the underdark and/or later Athkatla seeking to assassinate you. He is a bounty hunter after all!
Why would he want to hunt you down? He felt remorse for his actions, he wouldn't have held anything against you for killing him. He'd feel you were totally justified, and leave it at that.
I would like instead to see more options that give depth to his betrayal, like he survives somehow your fight and chases you in the underdark and/or later Athkatla seeking to assassinate you. He is a bounty hunter after all!
Why would he want to hunt you down? He felt remorse for his actions, he wouldn't have held anything against you for killing him. He'd feel you were totally justified, and leave it at that.
Becaus he was under Irenicus' geas. Even in the battle at Spellhold he didn't in fact actually want to fight CHARNAME, but he was forced to do so. If CHARNAME beated him but spared his life, he would have been anyway forced by Irenicus' magic to recover and seek the child of Bhaal in order to finish what he was commanded to do.
I would like instead to see more options that give depth to his betrayal, like he survives somehow your fight and chases you in the underdark and/or later Athkatla seeking to assassinate you. He is a bounty hunter after all!
Why would he want to hunt you down? He felt remorse for his actions, he wouldn't have held anything against you for killing him. He'd feel you were totally justified, and leave it at that.
Becaus he was under Irenicus' geas. Even in the battle at Spellhold he didn't in fact actually want to fight CHARNAME, but he was forced to do so. If CHARNAME beated him but spared his life, he would have been anyway forced by Irenicus' magic to recover and seek the child of Bhaal in order to finish what he was commanded to do.
Or die. The geas doesn't work like a charm or domination spell. If Yoshi thought it wasn't worth it anymore he cpuld actually refuse and die from it.
When you think about it, Yoshimo was a stroke of genius from the part of the original devs. Everything about him is designed to make him appealing to first time players just to screw them over after Spellhold.
It worked on me the first time. And the second time, and the third, ... but those were just because he's a great character.
Only just recently I left him at the copper coronet, thinking I could pick him up after the underdark. I walk in only to see him flop to the ground. I guess the geas took hold when he saw charname and realized no, he actually couldn't betray charname afterall.
Reading the topic a question came in my mind, maybe together we can find the answer.
The fact that he dies is functional to the main plot, to free a place for Imoen and because imo RP wise his sub plot is one of the best written and interesting.
The fact that he dies also if you don't bring him to the Asylum, from the point of view of the developers, has also some sense as they decided that he has to die anyway at that point of the game. But in the latter case there is a real sense in him dying in the CC? Imo no, absolutely no sense at all. Irenicus, hiring him, compelled him to accept a geas, and this is the reason why he can't help you and betray him in the asylum. But what is the obligation of the geas? Act as a friend of Charname, help him to reach his master and then betray him putting a poison in his food. And afaik he does everything possible to accomplish the obligation, in every dialogue, from the first time you meet him, he stresses about how he can be so useful and try to accomplish the thing. And if you decide to never recruit him, or maybe to leave him in the town before taking the ship, there is nothing that he can do about it. He never create the condition to have the geas killing him as he never betrays Irenicus and do his best to accomplish the obligation. Also we know for sure that killing you is not a part of the geas since Ireanicus wont you alive.
He should not die when you meet him in the CC or in whatever area you have left him telling him "wait me here". Instead he should try to join the party again, maybe putting the potion in the food when you are in the elves city. And as in that case is Saemon who puts the poison in the food you are not supposed to even know about the geas and that he is going to betray you.
I doubt you're supposed to think too hard about it, Yoshimo's betrayal was a late-minute addition (he has Tree of Life and Hell dialogue) so, uh, not everything about him makes perfect sense.
ZaramMaldovar
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And by the way, imagine you could get it as a one-time option for the Wish spell...
Also, I know a really cheap way to keep Yoshimo by exploiting the games dialogue triggers.
But I just had to make that meme.
- He's True Neutral, so he can fit in any party.
- He gets along with everyone (save Haer'Dalis, but even then it's not a dealbreaker).
- Bounty Hunter is as good as a single class Thief can get.
- In case Charname is a thief or recruits Jan, he has good enough stats to dual-class to Fighter.
- He's voiced by Maurice LaMarche.
16 years ago, when it was harder to stumble on spoilers unintentionally, that was a pretty awful surprise...
I was already a suspicious burger 16 years ago.
True, but the real range goes to Jim Cummings, he voiced Gorion, Minsc and Demogorgon.
Or how about Kevin Michael Richardson?
He was Sarevok, the BG1 Narrator and the "You must gather your party" voice
About that geas, shouldn´t he be lifted of fhim when the terms of spell are complete? Doesn´t it work the same way that a Contingency spell works?
2) as easy as it sounds for your player characters, acummulating hundreds or thousands of gold pieces is almost an impossible task for a regular npc.
Only just recently I left him at the copper coronet, thinking I could pick him up after the underdark. I walk in only to see him flop to the ground. I guess the geas took hold when he saw charname and realized no, he actually couldn't betray charname afterall.
The fact that he dies is functional to the main plot, to free a place for Imoen and because imo RP wise his sub plot is one of the best written and interesting.
The fact that he dies also if you don't bring him to the Asylum, from the point of view of the developers, has also some sense as they decided that he has to die anyway at that point of the game.
But in the latter case there is a real sense in him dying in the CC?
Imo no, absolutely no sense at all.
Irenicus, hiring him, compelled him to accept a geas, and this is the reason why he can't help you and betray him in the asylum. But what is the obligation of the geas? Act as a friend of Charname, help him to reach his master and then betray him putting a poison in his food. And afaik he does everything possible to accomplish the obligation, in every dialogue, from the first time you meet him, he stresses about how he can be so useful and try to accomplish the thing. And if you decide to never recruit him, or maybe to leave him in the town before taking the ship, there is nothing that he can do about it. He never create the condition to have the geas killing him as he never betrays Irenicus and do his best to accomplish the obligation. Also we know for sure that killing you is not a part of the geas since Ireanicus wont you alive.
He should not die when you meet him in the CC or in whatever area you have left him telling him "wait me here". Instead he should try to join the party again, maybe putting the potion in the food when you are in the elves city. And as in that case is Saemon who puts the poison in the food you are not supposed to even know about the geas and that he is going to betray you.
What do you think about this long rant of mine?