Kuo-Toan and Paralytic Bolts

FredSRichardson

I tried searching around for this and maybe I'm not good at the whole "search" thing, but I didn't see exactly the same topic discussed, so I'll go ahead and boldly ask

In BG2, I've always tossed the Kuo-Toan and Paralytic (Sahuagin) Bolts since they have no enchantment level and there are quite a lot of them after the Underdark.

But based on a few hints here and there I get a feeling I may be missing something:

1. Situational: perhaps these bolts are effective in otherwise tough encounters with creatures who cast Protection from Magic Weapons but then neglect to cast Protection from Normal Weapons or Protection from Normal Missiles?
   
2. Base damage: Most bolts have a base damage of 1D8. Kuo-Toan and Paralytic bolts go up to 2D6 and 1D10. Is that ever enough to really make a difference?
   
3. Savings throws: Kuo-Toan and Paralytic bolts require a save versus spell or save versus paralysis respectively. Perhaps this makes a difference?
   
4. Launcher: Firetooth (from Sister Garlena at Watcher's Keep) fires +4 enchanted ammo (unless you put other ammo in it). The Army Scythe (formerly Crossbow of Speed, from Bernard in the Copper Coronet) adds an extra attach per a round. I'm actually torn between the two.
   
5. Alternatives: Maybe it's better not to use crossbows at all and use (say) shortbows instead? This is another topic I realize. To be honest, Imoen is my primary crossbow user, but most of the time she has Melf's Minute Meteor's equipped which so far seem superior. I mainly just wanted one character to burn down the stockpile of crossbow ammo.
   
6. Ammo: I should have paid more attention, but I now realize that most bolts have no enchantment including Bolts of Biting and Bolts of Lightening. I always assumed these are better than Kuo-Toan and Paralytic bolts. I guess Bolts of Lightening at least do some lightening damage if the target makes a save versus breath.
   

Sorry for the verbosity! Any insight into these bolts or crossbows and how to use them in general would be very much appreciated.

semiticgoddess

The item descriptions are inaccurate. These are the stats:

Sahuagin Bolts:
1d10 damage
Stun for 36 seconds on a failed save vs. spell

Kuo-toa Bolts:
2d6 damage
Stun for 20 seconds on a failed save vs. spell

Both use saves vs. spell.
Both stun effects also bypass magic resistance.
Both strike as +1 weapons, but can be boosted to +3 using the Enchanted Weapon spell.

The main disadvantage for the Sahuagin Bolts, despite the stronger stun effect, is not the lower damage (5.5 compared to 7), but the weight and the scarcity. Kuo-toa Bolts are weightless like most bolts; Sahuagin Bolts have 1 weight each, and can weigh down characters like Jan. Sahuagin Bolts are also extremely rare, while Kuo-toa Bolts are common. In the entire game, I find less than 100 Sahuagin Bolts, and nearly 1,000 Kuo-toa Bolts.

Firetooth and the Army Scythe are both excellent options. It really depends on the character's THAC0 and attacks per round, but generally the Army Scythe will be a little more effective with Kuo-toa Bolts due to the improved APR and additional chances to stun the target.

Choosing between shortbows and crossbow is very dependent on what you're using your character for. Archers, fighters, and thieves aren't necessarily better off using one than the other. I would suggest experimenting with both and seeing which you find most interesting.

Lord_Tansheron

FredSRichardson said:

Situational: perhaps these bolts are effective in otherwise tough encounters with creatures who cast Protection from Magic Weapons but then neglect to cast Protection from Normal Weapons or Protection from Normal Missiles?
Ammo: I should have paid more attention, but I now realize that most bolts have no enchantment including Bolts of Biting and Bolts of Lightening. I always assumed these are better than Kuo-Toan and Paralytic bolts. I guess Bolts of Lightening at least do some lightening damage if the target makes a save versus breath.

All special ammo is magical. I'm not sure how it is in the EE, but I seem to recall from vanilla BG2 that for some reason only Acid/Piercing Arrows actually had an enchantment level (+1) while everything else did not. However, they are still magical, meaning that Protection from Magic Weapons WILL stop them, but anything that needs +1 or higher to hit will ALSO stop them. That might have been changed in the EE, but since I've basically never played without mods for the past 10 years I can't say for sure.

FredSRichardson said:

Base damage: Most bolts have a base damage of 1D8. Kuo-Toan and Paralytic bolts go up to 2D6 and 1D10. Is that ever enough to really make a difference?
Savings throws: Kuo-Toan and Paralytic bolts require a save versus spell or save versus paralysis respectively. Perhaps this makes a difference?

Generally speaking, save vs. spell tends to be better on most enemies than the paralysis one (but this of course varies between enemies). The bolts can however be devastating if they go through, as they are hard disables. The damage is a nice bonus.

FredSRichardson said:

Launcher: Firetooth (from Sister Garlena at Watcher's Keep) fires +4 enchanted ammo (unless you put other ammo in it). The Army Scythe (formerly Crossbow of Speed, from Bernard in the Copper Coronet) adds an extra attach per a round. I'm actually torn between the two.
Alternatives: Maybe it's better not to use crossbows at all and use (say) shortbows instead? This is another topic I realize. To be honest, Imoen is my primary crossbow user, but most of the time she has Melf's Minute Meteor's equipped which so far seem superior. I mainly just wanted one character to burn down the stockpile of crossbow ammo.

You cannot fire bolts from bows, only from crossbows. Both bows and crossbows have their respective advantages. You basically mentioned all the good ones, Firetooth/Army Scythe for crossbows, and Gesen/Tuigan for short bows (longbows are pretty much strictly worse than either). You can switch around depending on whether you need/want APR or high enchantment level (there is no +4 ammo except innate).

It's a good idea to stay flexible, and equip whatever ammo/launcher you think works best in a given situation. If you want to go for a disable, pop a few paralytic bolts or KTs. If you want unbuffed damage, go for APR weapons. If you're in a Greater Whirlwind Attack, equip a hard hitter like Firetooth. And so on. Switching weapons is easy and free, so why not take advantage of it. In case you (or someone else) didn't know: you can right-click the icon of an equipped bow/crossbow on your character's action bar to quickly switch between equipped ammunition. No need to go into the inventory (though you can, of course).

Kurona

Two additional bits of info:

- Crossbows also allow to launch Bolts of Lightning and these are pretty damaging (4d4 electrical on top of regular bolt damage if memory serves); they also penetrate Stoneskin.
- About saves: vs. spells is good against melee fighters and pretty bad against mages. Save vs. paralyzation is roughly the opposite.

deltago

Another info: they wiegh a pound each unlike other bolts.

FredSRichardson

Thank you all for the great responses. I guess this means the bolts will not get through "protection from magic weapons" if they count as +1 enchanted bolts.

@semiticgod nice tip on using enchant weapon. I take it you apply this to a stack of bolts? I will try it out, I have never played around with enchant weapon but this makes a lot of sense.

FredSRichardson

Okay, this is weird, look at the stats after having Imoen cast enchant weapon on my main char

FredSRichardson

Wow, I had Imoen cast "Enchant Weapon" on the main character and the THAC0 went insanely negative at least in the character sheet (like -48496641 for the Koa-Toan bolts...).

Is this a known issue?

I can't manage to attach an image (I get "The file failed to upload." messages), sorry about that.

semiticgoddess

FredSRichardson said:

Wow, I had Imoen cast "Enchant Weapon" on the main character and the THAC0 went insanely negative at least in the character sheet (like -48496641 for the Koa-Toan bolts...).

Well, that's bizarre. Enchanted Weapon isn't supposed to improve your THAC0 at all, I don't think. I thought it just made all weapons that one character might use strike as if they were +3 (unless they were already higher than +4). That is, it let you hit Iron Golems with Darts of Stunning or Ardulia's Fall (you could switch back and forth, and both would strike as +3), but wouldn't benefit you at all if you were fighting an ogre or a Mind Flayer, who have no such weapon immunities.

FredSRichardson

Well, this could be a glitch. Unfortunately I can't post a screen shot as the "attach" fails with a message: "The file failed to upload."

Bah... I'll try to get something reproducible for redmine.

Imoen is wielding the crossbow so the reality is that she spends most of her time use Melf's Minute Meteors and falls back on the crossbow occasionally. The end result is that she doesn't use the crossbow that much since MMM is so superior (i.e. so spammable...).

I should probably be playing with SCS which I know nerfs MMM appropriately.

Jouni

FredSRichardson said:

Imoen is wielding the crossbow so the reality is that she spends most of her time use Melf's Minute Meteors and falls back on the crossbow occasionally. The end result is that she doesn't use the crossbow that much since MMM is so superior (i.e. so spammable...).

I don't think I've ever used Melf's Minute Meteors. Every non-mage in the party already has a decent ranged weapon. Having a mage spend a valuable level 3 slot for a few rounds of higher damage output doesn't really add anything to the capabilities of the party. Better to use those slots for useful area-of-effect spells, such as Fireball, Skull Trap, Dispel/Remove Magic, Haste, or Slow.

Kurona

Jouni said:

I don't think I've ever used Melf's Minute Meteors. Every non-mage in the party already has a decent ranged weapon. Having a mage spend a valuable level 3 slot for a few rounds of higher damage output doesn't really add anything to the capabilities of the party. Better to use those slots for useful area-of-effect spells, such as Fireball, Skull Trap, Dispel/Remove Magic, Haste, or Slow.

Melf Minute Meteors strike at a +5 weapon, give the mage 5 attacks/round and do decent missile and fire damage (getting though Stoneskin). Until enemy mages are high-level enough to spam Pfmw it's going to rip through them like they're made out of paper. Not to mention, the meteors never disappear until thrown or dispelled.

It's one of the best level 3 spells for any back row mage.

Jouni

Kurona said:

Melf Minute Meteors strike at a +5 weapon, give the mage 5 attacks/round and do decent missile and fire damage (getting though Stoneskin). Until enemy mages are high-level enough to spam Pfmw it's going to rip through them like they're made out of paper. Not to mention, the meteors never disappear until thrown or dispelled.

It's one of the best level 3 spells for any back row mage.

The spell makes the mage a decent ranged fighter for a few rounds. Most of the time that's just a waste of level 3 spells. The party already has more than enough ranged fighters, and a 10-20% increase in total damage output doesn't matter. It's much better to use the spell slots for something that the other characters can't do.

FredSRichardson

Well, I can say that the meteors are OP at medium levels. SCS definitely takes care of this problem by making them +2 weapons instead of +5 weapons.

Next time around I may install SCS and tough it out