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Assassin's Poison Weapon

2

Comments

  • FinnTheHumanFinnTheHuman Member Posts: 404
    i see, additional poison seeping into every fresh cut. Well then, i too will mourn the change when it comes to ipad.

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 945
    Dee said:

    What is poison stacking? Using the ability multiple times for additional poison damage per hit? Having additional poison damage with each additional hit? I don't have the latest release yet so I don't really understand what has been changed.

    Prior to v2.0, you could stack the poison effect with each attack--so (to give an extreme example) you could use Poison Weapon, then use Whirlwind Attack, and hit your target with up to ten poison effects all working simultaneously. (Worth noting: in the original game, poisons didn't stack consistently; this was something that was fixed in the Enhanced Edition--mainly in order to allow multiple regenerative effects to work correctly--but inadvertently resulted in Poison Weapon being much more potent than it was supposed to be.)

    As of v2.0, the effects of Poison Weapon no longer stack. Different poison sources still do stack, but you can't combine Poison Weapon with Whirlwind Attack anymore.
    Poison weapon in the hands of a fighter-type class, with their better thaco and apr, isn't the same as in the hands of a thief, though. The assassin got the worst end of the deal with these changes.

    It is a bit amusing that the wizard slayer's ability gets through stoneskin and mirror image, by comparison.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    chimaera said:

    It is a bit amusing that the wizard slayer's ability gets through stoneskin and mirror image, by comparison.

    I believe poison actually goes through Stoneskin and Mirror Image too. Which is silly (your illusionary double gets struck and the poison goes into you??) and which did not happen pre-EE. So when lamenting how poison is nerfed, in fairness you should also mention how it has been buffed.

    Aerakar
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 945
    edited August 2016

    chimaera said:

    It is a bit amusing that the wizard slayer's ability gets through stoneskin and mirror image, by comparison.

    I believe poison actually goes through Stoneskin and Mirror Image too. Which is silly (your illusionary double gets struck and the poison goes into you??) and which did not happen pre-EE. So when lamenting how poison is nerfed, in fairness you should also mention how it has been buffed.
    If it works like this, then I wouldn't consider it a buff, but rather a (very silly) bug. (it seemed to work like this in IWDEE for spiders)
    Poison stacking on the other hand makes sense - multiple doses of poison applied over a short time should result in a much nastier effect than a singular dose. "The dose makes the poison", after all.

    FinnTheHumanAerakar
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,107
    If you want realism on poisons, then also prepare to wait for days while the enemy slowly dies of poisoning - unless you are talking about carrying extremely hazardous fast-acting poisons around all the time, in which case prepare to randomly have your character die because a fireball explosion spilled some toxin on your hand as you were coating your weapon.

    It's all game-ified representations. Limits have to be drawn somewhere, and balance concerns come into play over real-world consistency.

    subtledoctorFinnTheHumanAerakar
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    chimaera said:

    Dee said:

    What is poison stacking? Using the ability multiple times for additional poison damage per hit? Having additional poison damage with each additional hit? I don't have the latest release yet so I don't really understand what has been changed.

    Prior to v2.0, you could stack the poison effect with each attack--so (to give an extreme example) you could use Poison Weapon, then use Whirlwind Attack, and hit your target with up to ten poison effects all working simultaneously. (Worth noting: in the original game, poisons didn't stack consistently; this was something that was fixed in the Enhanced Edition--mainly in order to allow multiple regenerative effects to work correctly--but inadvertently resulted in Poison Weapon being much more potent than it was supposed to be.)

    As of v2.0, the effects of Poison Weapon no longer stack. Different poison sources still do stack, but you can't combine Poison Weapon with Whirlwind Attack anymore.
    Poison weapon in the hands of a fighter-type class, with their better thaco and apr, isn't the same as in the hands of a thief, though. The assassin got the worst end of the deal with these changes.

    It is a bit amusing that the wizard slayer's ability gets through stoneskin and mirror image, by comparison.
    The post you're quoting wasn't meant as a justification for why it was changed, only an explanation of stacking for those who didn't understand what's different.

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 945
    edited August 2016

    If you want realism on poisons, then also prepare to wait for days while the enemy slowly dies of poisoning - unless you are talking about carrying extremely hazardous fast-acting poisons around all the time, in which case prepare to randomly have your character die because a fireball explosion spilled some toxin on your hand as you were coating your weapon.

    It's all game-ified representations. Limits have to be drawn somewhere, and balance concerns come into play over real-world consistency.

    Frankly, I'd prefer the version you describe to the standard "character takes X fire damage". As it is, I find the current "limits" just silly (with poison not stacking, but acting through mirror image - if indeed it gets applied like this). Same as with wizard slayer abilities (and I think other on-hit effects like disease behaved the same in my playthrough of IWDEE).

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,107
    chimaera said:

    Frankly, I'd prefer the version you describe to the standard "character takes X fire damage". As it is, I find the current "limits" just silly (with poison not stacking, but acting through mirror image - if indeed it gets applied like this). Same as with wizard slayer abilities (and I think other on-hit effects like disease behaved the same in my playthrough of IWDEE).

    My point is, there are so many complexities involved in something so seemingly simple as using poison, that you can't really argue with it being "unrealistic" - because if you made it realistic, you'd have an entire separate game just for that.

    Note to self: write Beamdog with a pitch for "Baldur's Gate 3: Den of the Poisoner", the first ultra-realistic poison simulator set in the Forgotten Realms.

    SkaroseOrlonKronsteen
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 945
    edited August 2016

    chimaera said:

    Frankly, I'd prefer the version you describe to the standard "character takes X fire damage". As it is, I find the current "limits" just silly (with poison not stacking, but acting through mirror image - if indeed it gets applied like this). Same as with wizard slayer abilities (and I think other on-hit effects like disease behaved the same in my playthrough of IWDEE).

    My point is, there are so many complexities involved in something so seemingly simple as using poison, that you can't really argue with it being "unrealistic" - because if you made it realistic, you'd have an entire separate game just for that.

    Note to self: write Beamdog with a pitch for "Baldur's Gate 3: Den of the Poisoner", the first ultra-realistic poison simulator set in the Forgotten Realms.
    And my point is, if you are trying for an improvement, then replacing poison stacking with poison getting applied through mirror image & stoneskin just makes combat feel silly, not more balanced.
    (edit: I've run a quick test with a freshly made blackguard, she can poison a mage through stoneskin & mirror image just fine :-/)

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    chimaera said:

    chimaera said:

    Frankly, I'd prefer the version you describe to the standard "character takes X fire damage". As it is, I find the current "limits" just silly (with poison not stacking, but acting through mirror image - if indeed it gets applied like this). Same as with wizard slayer abilities (and I think other on-hit effects like disease behaved the same in my playthrough of IWDEE).

    My point is, there are so many complexities involved in something so seemingly simple as using poison, that you can't really argue with it being "unrealistic" - because if you made it realistic, you'd have an entire separate game just for that.

    Note to self: write Beamdog with a pitch for "Baldur's Gate 3: Den of the Poisoner", the first ultra-realistic poison simulator set in the Forgotten Realms.
    And my point is, if you are trying for an improvement, then replacing poison stacking with poison getting applied through mirror image & stoneskin just makes combat feel silly, not more balanced.
    (edit: I've run a quick test with a freshly made blackguard, she can poison a mage through stoneskin & mirror image just fine :-/)
    That's actually a bug; it'll be fixed in v2.4.

    subtledoctorFinnTheHumanAerakar
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 945
    Dee said:



    That's actually a bug; it'll be fixed in v2.4.

    What about other on-hit abilities, like wizard slayer's casting failure? (also had this happen with disease in IWDEE)

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,068
    Dee said:

    That's actually a bug; it'll be fixed in v2.4.

    May we know how so we can plan ahead?
    - Is it getting a hard-coded reverting,
    - will it be done with Opcode318/SPLRPROT.2da,
    - will there be a "Bypass Stoneskin" or "Not Bypass Stoneskin" flag similar to the "Bypass Mirror Image" flag,
    - or something else?
    Will non-attack sources of Poison still be able to bypass Stoneskin? For example, drinking the Vial of Mysterious Liquid or the Poison spell.
    Will any other opcodes be getting the same treatment as poison?
    Will we be finally able to make the 5 physical damage types(crushing/slashing/piercing/missile/nonlethal) bypass stoneskin when used in non-attack sources?

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    I believe that what's being done is that the code's being reverted--so it will work the way it did in the original game. (This is just for Stoneskin, btw; Mirror Image works a little differently.)

  • cbarchukcbarchuk Member Posts: 322
    Damn, I was really enjoying the fact that assassins could poison mages through their defenses. So how is an assassin supposed to poison a mage once this bug gets fixed?

  • SkaroseSkarose Member Posts: 247
    Guess I can go ahead and skip 2.4 then ;)

    OrlonKronsteen
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    cbarchuk said:

    Damn, I was really enjoying the fact that assassins could poison mages through their defenses. So how is an assassin supposed to poison a mage once this bug gets fixed?

    Isn't the whole point of studying magic and learning to cover your skin with layers of stone and project illusionary images of yourself, so that assassins *can't* poison you? Why should that not work?

  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 881
    On a gameplay side, it makes Stoneskin even more overpowered. If there's one class that doesn't need more power, it's definitely the mages.

    And it's kind of a slippery slope too. If it starts blocking non-physical damage because it's poison, what about weapons with elemental damage?

    Aerakargorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,911
    Dee said:

    but inadvertently resulted in Poison Weapon being much more potent than it was supposed to be.

    I disagree. the poison effect was supposed to be applied at EACH hit, check the in game description.
    Maybe was much more potent than what you, or even the vast majority of the players perceived to be fair or balanced, but it was exactly the behavior expected according to the kit description.

  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,459
    The problem, I believe, lies in the fact that the HP/damage system does not realistically replicate the damage effect in 'real life' to begin with. A fighter who is down to 1HP should be barely conscious, probably missing at least one limb and certainly not be able to hit anyone hard enough to cause maximum damage (if at all).

    This is a suspension of disbelief that we all accept.

    By making the Poison Weapon effect as realistic as it is has effectively pushed it ahead on the reality curve, thus making other weapon damage less effective by comparison.

    In other words, it's not so much that PW is OP, rather that other weapons are now UP. If we accept the fact that poison continues to do damage after the initial hit then we should also have a mechanic to recognise that blood loss (and the effect thereof) continues after the initial hit (I seem to remember that Runequest had a system to deal with this but it's been many years since I last played it).

    So, I think the problem with PW is not the 'weapon' itself but the way the game rules handle damage generally.

    gorgonzolaFinnTheHuman
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 945
    Kurona said:

    On a gameplay side, it makes Stoneskin even more overpowered. If there's one class that doesn't need more power, it's definitely the mages.

    And it's kind of a slippery slope too. If it starts blocking non-physical damage because it's poison, what about weapons with elemental damage?

    But that it the main problem with combat in BG2: the arcane spellcasting system at higher levels. Making poison applicable through illusionary clones doesn't really solve it.

    I'd rather see some further changes to magic instead, e.g. only one spell immunity should be allowed (similar to how you can't have both protection from normal and magical weapons at the same time).

  • cbarchukcbarchuk Member Posts: 322

    cbarchuk said:

    Damn, I was really enjoying the fact that assassins could poison mages through their defenses. So how is an assassin supposed to poison a mage once this bug gets fixed?

    Isn't the whole point of studying magic and learning to cover your skin with layers of stone and project illusionary images of yourself, so that assassins *can't* poison you? Why should that not work?
    The assassin has always been looked at as an anti-mage type of class. To me fixing this bug along with the poison nerf will render the assassin effectively impotent in the area in which he's supposed to be strong.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    edited August 2016
    Kurona said:

    On a gameplay side, it makes Stoneskin even more overpowered. If there's one class that doesn't need more power, it's definitely the mages.

    And it's kind of a slippery slope too. If it starts blocking non-physical damage because it's poison, what about weapons with elemental damage?

    No, it makes Stoneskin exactly as powerful as it is meant to be. It's supposed to block physical attacks; poison is applied by way of physical attacks. If you want to balance Stoneskin it's easy enough to change the number of skins or change its duration.
    cbarchuk said:


    The assassin has always been looked at as an anti-mage type of class. To me fixing this bug along with the poison nerf will render the assassin effectively impotent in the area in which he's supposed to be strong.

    That's an extraordinary use of the word "always," considering that Stoneskin and Mirror Image have blocked poison for 90% of the game's existence, only stopping when this bug was introduced in the EE engine...

    We're talking about going back to the status quo, here.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • cbarchukcbarchuk Member Posts: 322
    edited August 2016
    Well I simply didn't realize it was a bug. I thought it was a change they added. Anyways, if they fix this 'bug' then assassin's poison should be buffed as well is all I'm saying. Going back to how it originally work might be a step to far but in it's current state it's quite weak. Didn't acid arrows go through stoneskin in the original version?

  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 881

    Kurona said:

    On a gameplay side, it makes Stoneskin even more overpowered. If there's one class that doesn't need more power, it's definitely the mages.

    And it's kind of a slippery slope too. If it starts blocking non-physical damage because it's poison, what about weapons with elemental damage?

    No, it makes Stoneskin exactly as powerful as it is meant to be. It's supposed to block physical attacks; poison is applied by way of physical attacks. If you want to balance Stoneskin it's easy enough to change the number of skins or change its duration.
    And yet Varscona's single point of cold damage should still go through?

    Well I say that but I don't really disagree with you. 2ed Stoneskin is just not balanced for a computer game, you don't need to burn thousands of gold pieces per casting like in PnP. Reducing the number of skins is definitely a better solution than allowing poison to go through.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    Kurona said:

    And yet Varscona's single point of cold damage should still go through?

    My opinion? Yeah. It's a magical environmental harm, just like fire or lightning. You could make a case either way for acid, but most sources of acid in the game are magical, so I figure they should be treated like the others. Poison, on the other hand, is different in nature. It is applied differently and comes from a different (non-magical) source. So, it should be treated differently when appropriate.

    Viewed from another perspective: that 1 hp of cold damage from Varscona does a tiny bit of damage and might disrupt one spell (if you play with automatic spell disruption like a wuss :wink: ). Poison, on the other hand, is WAY more damaging. It does tons more damage, and does the damage over time to basically invalidate all of a spellcaster's abilities. From one hit! There are HUGE advantages to using poison; it seems perfectly fine to me that there be some disadvantages to go along with them (especially when it is lore-appropriate).

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,068
    Sadly the way the stone-skin opcode functions I don't think it could protect against a weapon's Cold damage (Varscona) without stopping cold damage from every other source as well, its all or nothing. This is the problem with it directly stopping poison - there are non-attack sources that would be absorbed by stone-skin.
    I just don't understand why they would revert this behavior, when Opcodes 318/326 can now achieve the same thing for on-hit poisons without affecting other sources of poison.

    Then again, there are non-attack sources of physical damage that it should not be stopping, but does anyway, which opcode 318/326 cannot fix, so the whole opcode(or spell) could really use a complete redesign to function properly.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    kjeron said:


    I just don't understand why they would revert this behavior, when Opcodes 318/326 can now achieve the same thing for on-hit poisons without affecting other sources of poison.

    Hmm, I guess I've been assuming that this is precisely what they're going to do in the next patch... i.e. the new stuff in 2.0 lets them finally make SS/MI stop on-hit poison, in a way that doesn't bring back the buggies of the pre-EE behavior.

  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,459
    Do Antidotes and Neutralize Poison work against PW damage? Because if they do then surely PW damage should be the same as any other poison damage.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,911
    I don't know. The problem is that the enemies must have the potions or the spell memorized, and scripts that make them cure the poison. Often in this game some things are powerful just because the enemy's AI is stupid (or better very limited).

    subtledoctorKurona
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