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Assassin's Poison Weapon

Is Beamdog planning on adjusting this ability? Because right now it's terrible. I just recently continued a solo assassin game after a long break and I couldn't believe the nerf. I mean the assassin is kind of weak already.

SkaroseAerakardunbarOrlonKronsteen
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Comments

  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136
    I disagree about Assassins being weak. If Imoen is an adequate thief for all of BG2 -- and she is -- then you obviously don't need very many thief skill points. Fifteen per level is plenty.

    AerakargorgonzolaAethernaut
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,911
    Assassin's Poison was very good in the original game, Beamdog has decreased its power to give balance to a new (OP) kit. They could have toned down the kit, but if they have taken this road I think that is unlikely that they will change direction. As @joluv told the Assassin has still power, but is no more the Assassin that who played the original game remember.

    about Imoen
    is not available for way more then 1/2 SoA, if metagame is not used. She is not completely nerfed only because the xp gain is not linear, otherwise she would never catch up. The part where she is not in the party is also the one where the Assassin has still few points in his rogue abilities and where backstabbing and exploring (that is essential if metagame is not abused) are more important. When she join the party again the party has a lot of means for exploring invisible, knock what they can not bash and survive traps, and any way more HP to survive to them. In the early game the spells are few and valuable, when you have her back you have plenty of them and going without a "traps and locks guy" is no hassle at all.

    GreenWarlockBubbles
  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,459
    edited August 2016
    Although Assassin is a "Rogue" class I don't regard them as thieves but as sneaky, nasty killers (Hide in Shadows, Poison Weapon, backstab - job done). By nerfing PW across the board (just to make Blackguards less OP) Beamdog have relegated Assassins to sneaky, nasty people who give their targets an irritating itch.

    gorgonzolaOrlonKronsteen
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,911
    This is not a section with the SPOILER tag, please keep under spoiler everything that a first time player is not supposed to know, thanks.

  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,026
    edited August 2016
    Oh come on now, can we stop pretending Poison Weapon wasn't a fragrantly abused ability that was horribly unbalanced for BG1? Assassin is my main class and I've done it all (pureclass assassin, assassin/fighter, assassin/Mage, assassin/cleric, etc) and I can say this class is still extremely fun and usable. Heck, Poison still has its utility present.

    People seem to conveniently forget about the assassin's to hit/damage bonus that makes them stellar dart-throwers for most of the trilogy, as well as giving them easier and stronger backstabs even before tapping into that x7 goodness. Couple that with scaling that makes it arguably the only thief kit worth remaining single-classed in? Yeah no, the assassin's still relevant as ever.

    Don't get me wrong, I miss the Poison stacking cheese but I'm not even going to defend it as a balanced ability. If anything I think it ties with Offensive Spin and the inquisitor's True Sight and dispel in terms of brokenness. I don't even think the blackguard's overpowered (idk how this is even a popular opinion, heck the bloody class can't even use Carsomyr)

    joluvsubtledoctorAerakarNoobacca
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136
    @gorgonzola: I wasn't even talking about a party with both Imoen and an assassin. I'm saying:
    - Imoen doesn't have many thief skill points.
    - Imoen is an adequate thief for every individual segment of the game.
    - It follows that you don't ever need many thief skill points.

    fragrantly abused

    :lol:

    gorgonzola
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 881
    Interestingly, the nerfed Poison Weapon is still more powerful than Rogue Rebalancing's version.

    gorgonzolaAerakar
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,911
    @joluv sorry, I misunderstood, I completely agree with you.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,911
    edited August 2016
    @Artemius_I
    can we stop pretending Poison Weapon wasn't a fragrantly abused ability that was horribly unbalanced for BG1?
    We are in the BG2 board....

    Assassin is my main class ... and I can say this class is still extremely fun and usable.
    Also @joluv told so and I agreed, while no one except the OP told that the opposite is true.

    ..as giving them easier and stronger backstabs even before tapping into that x7 goodness.
    For a 6 party people the 7x backstab come when it begin to be far less useful, more immune enemies and bosses, global power of the party so other means for wining or even breaking the game. For a soloer or who runs a party of 3-4 members is different, but this is true for everything, you trade quantity for quality.

    Couple that with scaling that makes it arguably the only thief kit worth remaining single-classed in?
    Also the Bounty Hunter has his inner power, and if powergame is not your only issue, in vanilla and for experienced players also in a modded game, the pure class imo is perfectly viable, useful, and have its inner power. Is not worth seems to me a little too much.

    the Poison stacking cheese
    Can cast Poison Weapon once per day (gaining additional uses out of the ability every four levels). When Poison Weapon is active each successful hit within the next 5 rounds will inject poison into the target, dealing.....
    each successful hit, the stacking was the normal and intended behavior, so why cheesy?

    Edit grammar error corrected
    Edit n°2 easier and stronger backstabs even before....
    Bonus +1 to hit and +1 damage are good for backstabbing, and not only for that, I agree. But again you trade something (thief ability points) for some other things. This in a class that is not inherently OP, the thief. The thief and the assassin can become very powerful if the player is proficient in using him or smart in merge its power with some other thing dualing, but is this not true for many other classes and kits. Berseker, Archer, Blade, Sorcerer, Mage... ok, I stop here, I guess that you get my point, that game is not perfectly balanced and maybe it would become very boring over stressing on the balance.

    Post edited by gorgonzola on
  • cbarchukcbarchuk Member Posts: 322
    Alright maybe it's just me and I need to get used to it. It just feels weak. I guess I'm just so use to how it originally worked. I'll try to be a bit more objective.

    gorgonzola
  • AerakarAerakar Member Posts: 669
    Personally, as I have written in another recent assassin thread, I am ok with the changes, as prior to 2.0 I used RR.

    One thing I would like to see in future though would be a higher backstab modifier earlier, if the devs are so inclined. RR also used this approach, leaving the assassin 1+ backstab modifier earlier already in BG. I found this helped compensate for the weaker poison weapon (at least it seemed so to me!).

    gorgonzolasubtledoctor
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 713
    edited August 2016
    @Tresset made the v1.3 poison files available here. I haven't tried them yet so I'm not sure if they're compatible with v2.3? Maybe someone, like @Tresset can let us know if they're working. If not, I'll post an update the next time I roll a blackguard or assassin.

    dunbar
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 713
    As for my thoughts about the old poison, no, I can't defend it as a balanced ability (though that never stopped me from using it), but I do find the new version underwhelming. To each our own, I guess. With additional mods we should be able to choose our own poison, so to speak.

    Aerakar
  • cbarchukcbarchuk Member Posts: 322
    I still it find quite underwhelming as well. It's really the only ability that allows the assassin to compete throughout the entire trilogy. Like it is now, I can barely kill normal mobs.

  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136
    cbarchuk said:

    I still it find quite underwhelming as well. It's really the only ability that allows the assassin to compete throughout the entire trilogy. Like it is now, I can barely kill normal mobs.

    Compete with what? When assessing a kit, it usually makes sense to compare it to the base class. It sounds like you might be comparing Assassins to something else.

  • cbarchukcbarchuk Member Posts: 322
    Well when I say compete, I mean where the class is viable through out the entire saga. By ToB, the assassin's x7 backstab becomes irrelevant since most baddies are immune to it. That only leaves poison weapon. Without that the assassin is just poor single class thief with less skill points. At least before it would do a good bit of damage even if the monster made its save. Now it does a tiny bit of damage ONLY if the monster fails its save which will happen less and less as you get into ToB. I'm doing a solo run right now and I find a lot of normal mobs making their save. So my guess is the latter half of SoA and ToB are going to be brutal. I'm also finding it difficult to consistently keep the application of poison up. This was non-issue in it's prior state. I'm not saying the original didn't have some balance issues but I think it was needed to actually make the assassin worth playing. I still have a lot of game left so I'll have to wait till I finish to give my final opinion. But right now I'm not liking it. I will try to remain objective however.

    OrlonKronsteen
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 713
    IIRC a lot of late game enemies are immune to poison as well as backstabs, but I can't remember how many. In any case, I totally agree that the saving throw is what makes poison so weak now. Even at low levels I was finding that enemies were making their saving throws way more often than not.

  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136
    edited August 2016
    It sounds like you might not think Thief is a viable class. I disagree, and I think most people would disagree, but that's a different conversation.

    If we stipulate that pure-class Thieves are (very) viable, though, then let's consider the advantages Assassins have in the late game. They have +1 THAC0 and damage; x7 backstabs that are far from irrelevant, even though certain creatures are immune; and poison weapon, which does a reliable +6 poison damage and often more. Ongoing poison is especially devastating against spellcasters, and they're generally more likely to fail their saves vs. death. Irenicus, for example, will be successfully poisoned on 45% of hits.

    The only price you pay is fewer skill points. But you're going to gain XP fast and be swimming in cash, which means you'll have a crapload of skill points, none of which need to be spent on pickpocketing.

    Post edited by joluv on
    Aerakar
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    edited August 2016
    cbarchuk said:

    Well when I say compete, I mean where the class is viable through out the entire saga. By ToB, the assassin's x7 backstab becomes irrelevant since most baddies are immune to it.

    That's just not true. If you mean "most of the 6 big bosses" are immune to it, then sure, but most fights are not you against one person, but rather you against several creatures. If an assassin can take out the mobs on the side and let your more directly powerful party members focus on the big baddie, that will have a meaningful impact on the battle.

    If you're talking about soloing - with a single-class thief! - then that's another story. But that's a very particular lens through which to view the class.

    Aerakargorgonzola
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 713
    I just tested Tresset's old poison file in BG1EE and it looks like it is indeed working. It doesn't change the description from 2.0, but the old venom is there for sure. I assume the file for BG2 works as well (there are files for each BG1 and BG2).

    @joluv You make good points about pure thieves. They sometimes get dismissed on power gaming grounds, but they are indeed viable. As for assassins, it seems that some people are fine with the new poison while others miss the old one. Personally I wouldn't mind something in between. A little more guaranteed damage over time would be nice. In any case, it looks like we've got two options now, with the 2.0 version and Tresset's files.

    joluvAerakar
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 713
    @Dee Interesting suggestions. I really like the backstab idea. As for poison, are you suggesting that the poison weapon icon disappear? There's something diabolically satisfying about clicking on that. :)

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447

    @Dee Interesting suggestions. I really like the backstab idea. As for poison, are you suggesting that the poison weapon icon disappear? There's something diabolically satisfying about clicking on that. :)

    Oh, no--I'd leave the Poison Weapon ability where it is; a high-level Assassin would just get a bonus poison added to their backstab. I probably wouldn't let it stack with the kit's existing Poison Weapon ability, but it would let you poison your target without having to spend a use of the ability.

    AerakardunbarOrlonKronsteensubtledoctor
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 945

    cbarchuk said:

    Well when I say compete, I mean where the class is viable through out the entire saga. By ToB, the assassin's x7 backstab becomes irrelevant since most baddies are immune to it.

    That's just not true. If you mean "most of the 6 big bosses" are immune to it, then sure, but most fights are not you against one person, but rather you against several creatures. If an assassin can take out the mobs on the side and let your more directly powerful party members focus on the big baddie, that will have a meaningful impact on the battle.

    If you're talking about soloing - with a single-class thief! - then that's another story. But that's a very particular lens through which to view the class.
    Thing is, by that time I wouldn't bother using an assassin to clear up mobs, because an improved hasted fighter is quicker and less hassle, especially with the equipment you get in ToB. As for boss battles, this is usually when mages come to play and mobs just perish in the crossfire. Even stacking poison doesn't seem so unbalanced when compared to the shenanigans that is improved alacrity.

  • cbarchukcbarchuk Member Posts: 322
    Well I like the progression of poison weapon which balances out playing an assassin in BG1 where the original version was obviously too strong. Anyways, Dee I like your new ideas on backstab. Would love to see that implemented.

    Aerakar
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    Dee said:

    I would change the Assassin's backstab progression to a flat +1 multiplier over the Thief;

    100%. And super-easy to mod, if it comes to that. Doesn't RR basically already do this?
    chimaera said:


    Thing is, by that time I wouldn't bother using an assassin to clear up mobs, because an improved hasted fighter is quicker and less hassle, especially with the equipment you get in ToB.

    Well, I mean, given that, why not just have two hosted fighters? And isn't the same true of the boss? We're starting from the premise that there's an Assassin in the party, and the question is simply how best to use it. Siccing the fighter on the boss and chunking the trash mobs with the Assassin is the better method in any event.

    And if you want to go after the boss, and poison them? Sure, it's no longer a win button (that's good, win buttons suck!), but it still can make things meaningfully quicker and easier for the fighters or mages.
    chimaera said:

    As for boss battles, this is usually when mages come to play and mobs just perish in the crossfire. Even stacking poison doesn't seem so unbalanced when compared to the shenanigans that is improved alacrity.

    So the thief kit is no good if it doesn't have a big-standard ability that matches the cheesiest magical shenanigans that wizards can produce?? I guess I disagree.

    Aerakar
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447

    Dee said:

    I would change the Assassin's backstab progression to a flat +1 multiplier over the Thief;

    100%. And super-easy to mod, if it comes to that. Doesn't RR basically already do this?
    If it does, that's not surprising; I talk to @AlexT every day. ;)

    Aerakar
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    Dee said:

    Dee said:

    I would change the Assassin's backstab progression to a flat +1 multiplier over the Thief;

    100%. And super-easy to mod, if it comes to that. Doesn't RR basically already do this?
    If it does, that's not surprising; I talk to @AlexT every day. ;)
    OT:

    Tell him to extend RR HLA tables to affect mod kits as well as vanilla kits. :wink:

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 945



    chimaera said:


    Thing is, by that time I wouldn't bother using an assassin to clear up mobs, because an improved hasted fighter is quicker and less hassle, especially with the equipment you get in ToB.

    Well, I mean, given that, why not just have two hosted fighters? And isn't the same true of the boss? We're starting from the premise that there's an Assassin in the party, and the question is simply how best to use it. Siccing the fighter on the boss and chunking the trash mobs with the Assassin is the better method in any event.

    And if you want to go after the boss, and poison them? Sure, it's no longer a win button (that's good, win buttons suck!), but it still can make things meaningfully quicker and easier for the fighters or mages.
    chimaera said:

    As for boss battles, this is usually when mages come to play and mobs just perish in the crossfire. Even stacking poison doesn't seem so unbalanced when compared to the shenanigans that is improved alacrity.

    So the thief kit is no good if it doesn't have a big-standard ability that matches the cheesiest magical shenanigans that wizards can produce?? I guess I disagree.
    Well that depends on what you use it for, doesn't it? And maybe you can use it to clear mobs in vanilla ToB, but I've only ever played the expansion with the tougher bosses* (and later Ascension) installed and I wouldn't attempt to "chunk the mobs" with the assassin in those, stacking poison or not. I'm not sure how poison would be an "I win" button against those either.
    *and from what I recall, the "tougher D" was actually restored to the original version

    That poison is "unbalanced" in BGEE? Most kits are; after all BG1 wasn't developed with kits in mind, but was meant to be played with the standard classes. Same as with IWDEE, which frankly, as fun it was to play, lacks the difficulty of the original. But in my opinion, instead of "balancing" kit abilities that were created with BG2/ToB gameplay in mind, it is the enemy encounters in BGEE (and IWDEE) that need a makeover instead.

    dunbar
  • FinnTheHumanFinnTheHuman Member Posts: 404
    What is poison stacking? Using the ability multiple times for additional poison damage per hit? Having additional poison damage with each additional hit? I don't have the latest release yet so I don't really understand what has been changed.

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