For me a very important part of the iconic feel of the game was removed with the new way the spell book was implemented.
Now when you open your spell book, instead of a book full of spell icons you are presented with what feels like a data base list. Clicking on an item in that list makes it light up with a bright red overlay.
Lathander save me from all these data base lists and red overlays… sigh...
I miss right clicking a spell icon to get detailed information about that spell on a separate screen.
I really miss the unfurling scroll that should appear when you hover your mouse over a spell icon in the spell book.
Please bring these iconic elements back to the game.
I respectfully disagree. The old style spellbook just screamed "technical compromise" to me. We're not using 640x480 screens anymore, there's no reason to preserve the old workarounds the original developers were forced to put up with.
You equate the current spellbook with a database. To me, the old spellbook was icons on a Windows desktop. You even had to right-click to see the properties. The current screen at least has the advantage of looking a little more bookish.
I'd like to see the spellbook continue moving down that path to look much more like a book. I totally agree about the red overlay, that's another thing that's just shouts in your face "you're using a computer!" It should be replaced with something that fits the spellbook aesthetic. Maybe an underline or circle that looks like it was drawn with a fountain pen, or something that looks like a silk bookmark. Also a page turning animation when switching spells would reinforce the spellbook illusion. Another thing that would help is to make the list of spells look more like a table of contents.
I summed up my suggestions about the spellbook screen(s) in the OP. I agree that the screen suffers aesthetically a lot. Apart from the red shading and improper scrollbars, I personally much dislike having the memorize spell slots at the very bottom of the screen, almost pushed out of it. It is problematic though, to fit well three major areas into space that is divided to two parts by the art (a book). For my mod I tinker with this idea in a future update (heavily inspired by NWN2 and mainly PoE), obviously I operate with much more space:
@Pecca Does your solution allow right clicking on the spell icons to get a new widow to come up with the spell information contained in it? Also, is it possible to hover over the spell icons and have the animated scroll tool tip come up, as it used to do?
I like your solution of having an overall bigger book and the memorized spells icons on the second page, but I think that only one spell level should be showing at once per set of pages.
At this point it is just a concept. I would open spell description on the right-click, that would be necessary. And all of the memorized spells would be there not only because it's super convenient, but also to use the space intelligently. But it's hardly possible with the smaller default screen. My point was that it is possible to assemble the screen differently, and I think the known and memorized spells should ideally both have the most prominent places.
@BillyYank Yes, I know some like the changes. But for me personally, the spell book has always been about mystical images on the old parchment pages of a mages spell book. Images that only the mages themselves could understand. The modern aesthetics of lists and lots of text just doesn’t fit the style. Especially as even the fonts themselves have been changed.
I do love your idea of a page turning animation. Unfortunately though, I fear that Beamdog will only want to go to so much expense in beefing up this new UI.
but I think that only one spell level should be showing at once per set of pages.
No, please, just no.
Why is that distressing? That is the way it has always been done. Even with the current patch for BGEE only one level of spells is shown at a time. The level 1 spells on the first set of pages, level 2 spells on the next set, and so on.
@Ravenslight Because Pecca's mockup's biggest strength is being able to show all relevant information while simultaneously being less cluttered. I put up with only having one level visible currently because the current layout wouldn't really work otherwise. If given the option, I would love to be able to see all my memorized spells on one page.
Theoretically, it would fit the default screen with vertical placement of the memorized spell slots. Or maybe some other sorting, there is a room for 14x9 grid of slots. (note that I'm not advocating for this solution, just showing how it would look).
It is good to know that that so much versatility is possible. Especially as this gives modders the ability to customize things to fit many peoples differing tastes. But I do think it is important to have an option for a more traditional type set up as well.
I know for myself that having everything crammed together on one page feels cluttered and out of place for this game. There is too much information all together on one page in this example.
My eyes have to sort through the information and try to concentrate only on the parts that I want to think about. It feels very distracting. When I’m thinking about level one spells I only want to see level one spells.
It also looses the feeling of a spell book. With a book you “turn the page” and go to a different section. With a data base you line everything up as neatly as possible and show as much information as possible all at once.
Keeping everything as it was would be a missed opportunity, and I'm glad these threads go the other way. Generally I think the default UI should benefit from the new possibilities of the 2.0 engine, while keeping the BG "feel". Of course the "feel" is a tricky thing. I came to believe, that most of the "feel" was lost from the 2.0 because the existing art and artistic style wasn't considered enough when new layouts and functionalities were introduced. With proper care, a lot of new functionalities can be added without losing it.
Keeping everything as it was would be a missed opportunity, and I'm glad these threads go the other way. Generally I think the default UI should benefit from the new possibilities of the 2.0 engine, while keeping the BG "feel". Of course the "feel" is a tricky thing. I came to believe, that most of the "feel" was lost from the 2.0 because the existing art and artistic style wasn't considered enough when new layouts and functionalities were introduced. With proper care, a lot of new functionalities can be added without losing it.
Though I agree that the graphics played a big part in it, it’s not the only problem. Losing so much of the old functionality that has always been a part of the game has a big impact on “keeping the BG feel” as well.
I’ll use what we are currently discussing as an example. Having all spell levels showing at once in the spell book is a huge departure from how the original games did it. Though some people may like this new approach, I don’t think it is fair to say that it wouldn’t affect how the game feels for others.
Not being able to right click spell icons, no hover over tool tips, no unfurling scrolls, lists instead of icons, having separate pages for spell levels in the spell books, all of these things contribute to the “Baldur’s Gate feel” of the game.
I agree with @Ravenslight, the default UI should keep the BG feels. We already see what happens with 2.0. Nostalgia is very strong, people are used to the old look and a lot of them do not want any changes.
Exactly what have "we" seen? Please provide data-based proof that the people who like the old UI outnumber those of us who like the new UI (and note that claiming "a lot of people on this forum prefer the old UI" does not constitute proof in any way, shape or form).
@kanisatha How do you interpret “a lot of them” to mean, “the people who like the old UI outnumber those of us who like the new UI” ? Nobody said that.
You have every right to state in this thread how much you love it and why. If you want to keep it great! Some others want the opportunity for a more familiar option.
If you don’t believe that many people do not like the new UI I would suggest that you run some searches on this forum. The subject has come up time and again in threads concerning version 1.3 and the 2.0 patch. Nobody owes you any data-based proof in order to express their opinion.
Please feel free to go on your own data-based, fact finding mission in order to prove your own point.
Of course there are people who love it. There are also many who don’t. The very reason these UI improvement and Making it Work threads exist is because not everyone likes the changes.
Keeping everything as it was would be a missed opportunity, and I'm glad these threads go the other way. Generally I think the default UI should benefit from the new possibilities of the 2.0 engine, while keeping the BG "feel". Of course the "feel" is a tricky thing. I came to believe, that most of the "feel" was lost from the 2.0 because the existing art and artistic style wasn't considered enough when new layouts and functionalities were introduced. With proper care, a lot of new functionalities can be added without losing it.
Though I agree that the graphics played a big part in it, it’s not the only problem. Losing so much of the old functionality that has always been a part of the game has a big impact on “keeping the BG feel” as well.
I’ll use what we are currently discussing as an example. Having all spell levels showing at once in the spell book is a huge departure from how the original games did it. Though some people may like this new approach, I don’t think it is fair to say that it wouldn’t affect how the game feels for others.
Not being able to right click spell icons, no hover over tool tips, no unfurling scrolls, lists instead of icons, having separate pages for spell levels in the spell books, all of these things contribute to the “Baldur’s Gate feel” of the game.
That's why I said the "feel" is a tricky thing, people are bound to have different opinions about it. For me, the visual part is the greatest setback. While a lot of new functionalities were an improvement, visual side of the UI got worse. All the discussions about major screens like the record or inventory didn't result in wanting the v1.3 state back, but instead it was mostly proposed to use new improved functionalities in a way which was visually closer to the original, than the current state.
In case of the spellbook, what doesn't work visually for me is the memorized spells area at the very bottom of the screen, thus I suggested to use the space differently.
I would say that those screens are a satisfactory compromise. To be fair, it was stated fairly strongly that just reverting to a version 1.3 version wasn’t a possibility. So it was necessary to find that compromise.
I do like your idea of putting the known spells up on the left hand page. The original game did that. I just don’t like the part where you have all the spell levels together on the same page.
But it wasn't a compromise between players and the devs, it was just players. Devs didn't participate and didn't root for the v2.0 changes, yet new functionalities and solution were proposed and agreed upon (like the inventory information area) while considering visuals carefully. I think the discussions and their results would have looked quite differently, if majority of people there would just want the v1.3 state back. Instead I see the results as a good balance between a BG feel and introducing improved functionalities and I'm pretty satisfied with them so far.
The case of the spellbook is a bit similar with the case of the record screen. New functionalities allow for a pretty massive improvement (in a way that more information can be accessed more conveniently), but their implementation hit the visuals and the feel equally massively too. And just like in the result of the record screen suggestions, I think the spellbook can benefit from new functionalities while remaining the feel. And I'm not specifically talking about the all-in-one screen memorized spells here.
The devs were involved, and the fact that 1.3 wasn’t an option certainly affected how I went about trying to find a compromise.
It sounds like you are wanting some big changes to the spell book @Pecca. Perhaps you would like to start a new “Making it Work” thread for them so as not to take over this thread with talk only pertaining to them?
I look forward to seeing what ideas you have, other then the all-in-one screen.
It sounds like you are wanting some big changes to the spell book Pecca. Perhaps you would like to start a new “Making it Work” thread for them so as not to take over this thread with talk only pertaining to them?
I look forward to seeing what ideas you have, other then the all-in-one screen.
I put all the points in the OP. About the memorized spells at the bottom, I have no good solutions there, the window size is pretty limiting.
I major issues with calling the spell book "iconic". When I think of BG, it never crosses my mind. It was very limited in the information it gave you, and was very limited by the engine and technology in what it can do. We have a chance to improve what was always a very underwhelming menu and people already want to cripple it, because changing a dated interface is apparently some kind of sin.
One thing I certainly wouldn't want to lose is the spell description on the same screen. Having to open a separate dialog box and then close it to see another spell is just clunky and annoying.
Okay, I put together some mockups. There is a toggle between "one spell level" of memorized spell slots and "all spell levels". This toggle would be remembered by the game and easily toggable in the window. "All spell levels" would show maximum of 9 slots per level, "one spell level" up to 28 (for modding purposes). Spell description woud be opened by right-clicking the spell and showed on the other side of the book, therefore another spell description could be opened without the need to close the old one. Only to show the memorized spells again, the description would have to be closed by pressing the "X" button. Also there would be an option to show known spells as icons as a toggle somewhere.
Comments
Now when you open your spell book, instead of a book full of spell icons you are presented with what feels like a data base list. Clicking on an item in that list makes it light up with a bright red overlay.
Lathander save me from all these data base lists and red overlays… sigh...
I miss right clicking a spell icon to get detailed information about that spell on a separate screen.
I really miss the unfurling scroll that should appear when you hover your mouse over a spell icon in the spell book.
Please bring these iconic elements back to the game.
You equate the current spellbook with a database. To me, the old spellbook was icons on a Windows desktop. You even had to right-click to see the properties. The current screen at least has the advantage of looking a little more bookish.
I'd like to see the spellbook continue moving down that path to look much more like a book. I totally agree about the red overlay, that's another thing that's just shouts in your face "you're using a computer!" It should be replaced with something that fits the spellbook aesthetic. Maybe an underline or circle that looks like it was drawn with a fountain pen, or something that looks like a silk bookmark. Also a page turning animation when switching spells would reinforce the spellbook illusion. Another thing that would help is to make the list of spells look more like a table of contents.
Does your solution allow right clicking on the spell icons to get a new widow to come up with the spell information contained in it? Also, is it possible to hover over the spell icons and have the animated scroll tool tip come up, as it used to do?
I like your solution of having an overall bigger book and the memorized spells icons on the second page, but I think that only one spell level should be showing at once per set of pages.
My point was that it is possible to assemble the screen differently, and I think the known and memorized spells should ideally both have the most prominent places.
Yes, I know some like the changes. But for me personally, the spell book has always been about mystical images on the old parchment pages of a mages spell book. Images that only the mages themselves could understand. The modern aesthetics of lists and lots of text just doesn’t fit the style. Especially as even the fonts themselves have been changed.
I do love your idea of a page turning animation. Unfortunately though, I fear that Beamdog will only want to go to so much expense in beefing up this new UI.
Why is that distressing? That is the way it has always been done. Even with the current patch for BGEE only one level of spells is shown at a time. The level 1 spells on the first set of pages, level 2 spells on the next set, and so on.
I know for myself that having everything crammed together on one page feels cluttered and out of place for this game. There is too much information all together on one page in this example.
My eyes have to sort through the information and try to concentrate only on the parts that I want to think about. It feels very distracting. When I’m thinking about level one spells I only want to see level one spells.
It also looses the feeling of a spell book. With a book you “turn the page” and go to a different section. With a data base you line everything up as neatly as possible and show as much information as possible all at once.
I came to believe, that most of the "feel" was lost from the 2.0 because the existing art and artistic style wasn't considered enough when new layouts and functionalities were introduced. With proper care, a lot of new functionalities can be added without losing it.
Though I agree that the graphics played a big part in it, it’s not the only problem. Losing so much of the old functionality that has always been a part of the game has a big impact on “keeping the BG feel” as well.
I’ll use what we are currently discussing as an example. Having all spell levels showing at once in the spell book is a huge departure from how the original games did it. Though some people may like this new approach, I don’t think it is fair to say that it wouldn’t affect how the game feels for others.
Not being able to right click spell icons, no hover over tool tips, no unfurling scrolls, lists instead of icons, having separate pages for spell levels in the spell books, all of these things contribute to the “Baldur’s Gate feel” of the game.
How do you interpret “a lot of them” to mean, “the people who like the old UI outnumber those of us who like the new UI” ? Nobody said that.
You have every right to state in this thread how much you love it and why. If you want to keep it great! Some others want the opportunity for a more familiar option.
If you don’t believe that many people do not like the new UI I would suggest that you run some searches on this forum. The subject has come up time and again in threads concerning version 1.3 and the 2.0 patch. Nobody owes you any data-based proof in order to express their opinion.
Please feel free to go on your own data-based, fact finding mission in order to prove your own point.
Of course there are people who love it. There are also many who don’t. The very reason these UI improvement and Making it Work threads exist is because not everyone likes the changes.
In case of the spellbook, what doesn't work visually for me is the memorized spells area at the very bottom of the screen, thus I suggested to use the space differently.
I do like your idea of putting the known spells up on the left hand page. The original game did that. I just don’t like the part where you have all the spell levels together on the same page.
The case of the spellbook is a bit similar with the case of the record screen. New functionalities allow for a pretty massive improvement (in a way that more information can be accessed more conveniently), but their implementation hit the visuals and the feel equally massively too. And just like in the result of the record screen suggestions, I think the spellbook can benefit from new functionalities while remaining the feel. And I'm not specifically talking about the all-in-one screen memorized spells here.
It sounds like you are wanting some big changes to the spell book @Pecca. Perhaps you would like to start a new “Making it Work” thread for them so as not to take over this thread with talk only pertaining to them?
I look forward to seeing what ideas you have, other then the all-in-one screen.
The last screenshot made my heart skip a beat.