Also, it's supposed to be comparison information. By printing out the base stats and leaving out what the stat differences will be, you're not really using the feature to its intended purpose.
I guess the bigger question is ... 'What should Item Comparison be?'
Should it be a stat by stat review of the impact of equipping an item, or is it just general guidance - yes this one is a bit better here and bit worse there... For me, there comes a point where too muich detail actually makes the information less effective.
@Adul: I think it helps a bit if you don't show the modifiers, but the new values. +9 THAC0, +1 minimum damage and +8 maximum damage has no meaning if there is no current value to compare to.
Also, I do think it's useful to list the offhand information, because this is a rather complex aspect that has a lot of values. Implementing an Item Comparison, but then hiding it when things get most complex and the end user needs the Item Comparison help the most seems rather odd.
As for using the end values not being comparable, I disagree. If your current armor is shown as 5, and the new armor is shown as 3 and in green, you know "ok, this is improving it by 2.".
However, it could perhaps be possible to do something like "3 (+2)" to show you that the new value is 3, which is 2 better than the old value.
@Mr2150: I still like them, though. You may have a point that too much information could be superfluous. Speed Factor could go. APR is important though, as are AC modifiers to certain armor types (the modifiers make Studded Leather clearly better than Hide, despite Hide having a better base AC).
Maybe there needs to be a different type of comparison depending on the item being compared.
I mean, how do you compare a ring that improves thieving abilities with one that gives you more spells... In that example, is it even worth doing a comparison?
@Thels I think I did express my views on the subject. If it is not a toggle option, then it should be kept subtle and as minimal as possible. It goes back to the same old problem here. If we were talking about a brand new game it would be different.
When talking about an old iconic game like this one we should keep in mind how established players might perceive it as well as new players.
As I also stated, I can see how this might be helpful if kept to a minimum for a non toggle option. If it is a toggle option then it doesn’t matter as much, but still might be used less if it gets to blinky.
I'm pretty sure it's been stated all along that item comparison should be an optional toggle in settings, or at least, I can't remember anyone suggesting that it should be mandatory.
@Adul: I think it helps a bit if you don't show the modifiers, but the new values. +9 THAC0, +1 minimum damage and +8 maximum damage has no meaning if there is no current value to compare to.
I don't see why the base values are important in comparison at all. +2 damage means you're improving your damage by 2. That's meaningful information. Damage 7-11 in this context only means something if you already know that your damage is currently 5-9, so you can do the math in your head and finally come to the conclusion that you get +2 damage, which the UI could have told you to begin with.
Also, I do think it's useful to list the offhand information, because this is a rather complex aspect that has a lot of values. Implementing an Item Comparison, but then hiding it when things get most complex and the end user needs the Item Comparison help the most seems rather odd.
It's only really useful to characters who use off-hand weapons, which is typically a minority in a balanced party. For everyone else it would just clutter up the interface. Of course, there could be a compromise, to only show off-hand weapon comparison information to characters who already have an off-hand weapon equipped, leaving the UI simple for everyone else.
As for using the end values not being comparable, I disagree. If your current armor is shown as 5, and the new armor is shown as 3 and in green, you know "ok, this is improving it by 2.".
But for that you need to find your current AC stat, which is somewhere else on the interface. That takes time and is frustrating, especially for a new player. It forces you to focus your attention to two different parts of the UI instead of just one. So why not just tell them immediately that their stat is improving by 2?
Also, for AC, AC sub-values for various damage types are important, which this leaves out of the equasion.
I hope we are talking about a toggle able options here as I really dislike more colored lights blinking.
I can kind of see how a subtle and subdued red or green added to the stats might be a helpful option. But here again less is better, in my opinion. If you start adding yellow and up and down arrows etc. it starts to just become more distracting then helpful.
Yes, comparisons should be toggleable. No question. As for blinking lights and bright colors not fitting the color scheme, I dislike them too. Maybe an option would be for the up/down arrows to be the same color as the text (off-white), which could still work if they're clearly indicating a positive or negative value judgment by shape alone.
I'm pretty sure it's been stated all along that item comparison should be an optional toggle in settings, or at least, I can't remember anyone suggesting that it should be mandatory.
It is also stated as a key feature in the OP of this thread.
Yeah, but we can't take for granted that all our suggestions are going to be implemented. So if suggestion B relies on suggestion A being implemented, then we should keep in mind that suggestion A may not be implemented, and design suggestion B so that it works without suggestion A.
I agree that even if Item Comparison becomes an optional feature (something I'm all for, btw!), we should keep it's functionality in style with the rest of the UI, and not overly flashy.
So I'm torn between just red and green text and Adul's arrows. The latter are clearer, but also more outside the norm.
@Ravenslight: Do you have any suggestions on how to include "better" and "worse" in the least flashy way?
@Adul: I don't agree with only showing the item comparison values for offhand when an offhand is already equipped. Then you are unable to see the effects of equipping an offhand weapon in the first place.
Also, what do you think of the idea of showing the new values, followed by the improvement or downgrade in parenthesis? For example, if you go from a longsword (1d8) to a bastard sword (2d4), with a +3 bonus from strength, it could be:
[Bastard Sword] Damage: 5-11 (+0.5)
For the replacement of odd items, like a ring of thieving with a ring of wizardry, if we filter the values shown, it shouldn't be an issue. Things I think should be included:
- AC - AC modifier vs damage types - Health - THAC0 - Damage - APR - Perhaps saving throws? - Perhaps resistances?
Anything else I think is unique enough that there is little point in comparing it to other items.
@Adul: I don't agree with only showing the item comparison values for offhand when an offhand is already equipped. Then you are unable to see the effects of equipping an offhand weapon in the first place.
How about this: The off-hand weapon comparison information only shows up for characters who have an off-hand weapon equipped OR have any proficiency points in two-weapon fighting. I don't really want to see useless off-hand comparisons on my mage.
Another thing to consider: what if the character in question has a two-handed weapon equipped? should it still show off-hand information for one-handed weapons? If so, should it take into consideration that your main hand weapon would turn into a fist if you actually equipped it?
Also, what do you think of the idea of showing the new values, followed by the improvement or downgrade in parenthesis? For example, if you go from a longsword (1d8) to a bastard sword (2d4), with a +3 bonus from strength, it could be:
[Bastard Sword] Damage: 5-11 (+0.5)
It's a reasonable compromise between our two positions, but truthfully, I still don't see a use for the base values to appear.
It should show the new values of what happens if you place the item in your offhand slot. In the case of having a two-handed weapon equipped, the offhand slot is ignored, so there are no changes, and nothing is shown. The offhand section could be kept hidden, as there is nothing to show there.
For consistency's sake, I would still always show it if it has any effect. Keep in mind that it'll be at the bottom of the text field, so it's not pushing anything else out of the way. At most, you need to scroll down to see the offhand values that you don't want to see in the first place.
The Item Comparison is particularly intended for players that are new to the 2e system. On quite a few games, equipping an offhand weapon does not impact the mainhand at all. It will be helpful to show that one shouldn't just equip an offhand for the sake of it, as it has quite the impact on your mainhand as well.
I personally much rather see the base values than what changes, as I'd have to look up the old values to see what the new base values would be. It's like "If this is equipped, your value will become that. Just a +2 doesn't show that to me."
The base values also always work, even if there's no previous value. If it's a new value (like attack and damage for offhand), there IS no old value to compare it to, but there is a base value to show.
Overall, I think some people prefer to see the new values, while others prefer to see the changes. Showing both is probably the best way to go.
@Pecca: I like those icons, but they feel a little too dark for my taste.
@Thels said: @Ravenslight: Do you have any suggestions on how to include "better" and "worse" in the least flashy way?
Well, I can’t speak for everyone, but here are my suggestions related to the current question.
Keep such things to a minimum, only add the most important ones.
For the text involved, use darker colors, not bright red and green, but a darker more subdued red and green.
Make the “light behind them” I don’t know the correct term, subtle, not bright.
In the case of arrows, make them much smaller, use the same conditions for color and light, make them fit with the theme of the original game. Maybe a hairline outline on the edge or something, in a dark golden tone.
With any elements of the UI think, old, worn, Baldur’s Gate.
I’m going to throw in another example here. Take how the current UI has the portraits of the character who can use the item light up with a bright yellow overlay, while those that can’t wear the item go dark.
I don’t know what flashing yellow signs mean in other countries, but in the US we are taught from birth to think of such things as caution! Pay attention! So having them work the way they do now is very distracting and irritating. They are also foreign to a Baldur’s Gate game.
If I had to make that work, I would go for a more subtle approach for this game. Maybe only have the portraits go slightly brighter, no extra color. Maybe only make the ones who can’t wear it go dark and leave the rest alone.
I don’t know, but I hope you can see what I’m getting at. People want to see Baldur’s Gate when they load up these games. Not flashy new lights like they might like in some other games.
I would make the base of @Pecca 's arrows less wide but brighten them up a bit.
So tall thin arrows but a touch brighter, compare for example the colour of the red of the jewels in the ornamentation. They have a blend on them making them have darker edges and a lighter middle. That approach might work better as its copying the existing look.
Yeah, but we can't take for granted that all our suggestions are going to be implemented. So if suggestion B relies on suggestion A being implemented, then we should keep in mind that suggestion A may not be implemented, and design suggestion B so that it works without suggestion A.
I agree that even if Item Comparison becomes an optional feature (something I'm all for, btw!), we should keep it's functionality in style with the rest of the UI, and not overly flashy.
So I'm torn between just red and green text and Adul's arrows. The latter are clearer, but also more outside the norm.
@Ravenslight: Do you have any suggestions on how to include "better" and "worse" in the least flashy way?
I can see the arrows work, with a little bit of graphic like this:
Are we at the stage where we can say, with general consensus, that this layout is what we're hoping for? It seems to me that any discussion of function/application of the scroll box will to a large degree depend on this design so, structurally speaking, this is it?
In terms or options for the scroll box, item comparison is a given and I'm personally liking the simplicity of the coloured arrows showing the essential changes. This needs to be concise as the box cant be scrolled when holding an item, if I understand correctly?
I also like @Pecca's earlier suggestion of the scroll box being used as additional inventory space to display bag of holding contents.
@Ravenslight: I understand your general ideas and wishes. What we're all trying to do (I think, at least), is trying our best to compromise between having useful UI features, and having the UI feel BGish.
I personally feel that if we provide a feature or other piece of information, that piece must be provided in a clear and easy to access way, as that's the purpose of that feature of piece of information. We should then try to display that feature or piece of information fitting as much in the BG style as possible.
To come back to the Icon Comparison, a good example is certain values being and improvement or downgrade. If this was, say, 3rd edition, I'd probably prefer to keep everything white without icons, as it's clear that higher is better. A (+2) after a value could indicate that it's 2 better than your current item, while a (-1) could indicate it's 1 worse, and there's no need for flashy colors or big icons.
Unfortunately, 2nd edition ain't very clear on what's better and what's worse, so we need to add indicators in one way or another. Red and green colors are pretty easy, but have both the downsides that they're flashy and that they aren't helping the colorblind. You could go with a darker red that's not flashy, but you quickly get complaints that it's too dark and hard to see.
So I was genuinely asking if you had any good ideas. I do like the idea of the arrows that Adul started with and Pecca improved upon. I think Pecca's arrows could be less wide as well, but certainly not less high, as it's important information, and should not be hard to read.
The yellow is indeed a bit of an odd color (and it's signal of caution is not unique to the US). If any color, I'd have expected green, as it's meant to indicate good fits. That said, I really only use it to see if any mage in my party can write a particular scroll, as that's a clear binary yes or no result. For anything else, I personally don't trust it at all.
I wouldn't mind personally if it only indicated "unable to use" by darkening the portraits, and "can write into spellbook" with a green overlay, and not using any other overlay colors. Do people actually follow the advise of whom to equip certain items to? That would be interesting to know. (Though this may be a separate discussion, not sure...)
I would make the base of @Pecca 's arrows less wide but brighten them up a bit.
So tall thin arrows but a touch brighter, compare for example the colour of the red of the jewels in the ornamentation. They have a blend on them making them have darker edges and a lighter middle. That approach might work better as its copying the existing look.
The same sort of shape and size as the pointy bit of the scroll bar?
@Danathion: General favor seems to be going towards the current setup with the five stat boxes at the top with the information window underneath. However, that shouldn't prevent anyone from coming up with other ideas. For example, we were pretty set on having the four icons with the numbers inside, when Pecca brought us his example with the stat boxes, that evolved into this.
It's a good point that scrolling the textbox while holding an item will be awkward at best! I haven't thought of that. Perhaps it's not such a good idea to repeat the item's basic stats, then. I still think it's best to display offhand values where applicable.
I also like that idea for bags of holding, but am not fully convinced just yet. Would it replace the current store interface for bags of holding, or would there be two different ways of opening it? The former would be annoying, as having to manually drag each and every item in there can be annoying. But providing more than one way to open the bag may be confusing.
It's also worth noting that the purpose of the yellow lighting, the green and red etc is to get your attention and say "Hey! Something is different here... please pay attention and see what."
Whether it's the right shade/colour/whatever is a different discussion as is whether it is appropriate or not, but the purpose is to signify change and to get your attention for whatever reason.
It's also worth noting that the purpose of the yellow lighting, the green and red etc is to get your attention and say "Hey! Something is different here... please pay attention and see what."
Whether it's the right shade/colour/whatever is a different discussion as is whether it is appropriate or not, but the purpose is to signify change and to get your attention for whatever reason.
That's why my mock ups were all grey boxes. Once you know the shape of the screen you can spend time and resources to make them look good and fit the design aesthetic; if you try to make your sketch look like the final draft, every time you iterate you throw valuable work out the window.
I think it could be very helpful to the UI development crew to see how people react to the graphical suggestions done in the mock ups here.
It also makes it easier to understand the concepts people are trying to convey if these details are included. Not all of us think the same way. It certainly has made it easier for me to understand.
I can look at a piece of stone and see the druid and his staff that is hiding there. It is much harder for me to visualize some of the ideas that people have had here without any context.
I also like that idea for bags of holding, but am not fully convinced just yet. Would it replace the current store interface for bags of holding, or would there be two different ways of opening it? The former would be annoying, as having to manually drag each and every item in there can be annoying. But providing more than one way to open the bag may be confusing.
Haven't thought about it in much detail, I was just pointing out that the space can be used this way too. It could work as a toggle or as an opened bag. But I'm already thinking about the possibility of introducing this in some way to my mod.
Comments
Should it be a stat by stat review of the impact of equipping an item, or is it just general guidance - yes this one is a bit better here and bit worse there... For me, there comes a point where too muich detail actually makes the information less effective.
Also, I do think it's useful to list the offhand information, because this is a rather complex aspect that has a lot of values. Implementing an Item Comparison, but then hiding it when things get most complex and the end user needs the Item Comparison help the most seems rather odd.
As for using the end values not being comparable, I disagree. If your current armor is shown as 5, and the new armor is shown as 3 and in green, you know "ok, this is improving it by 2.".
However, it could perhaps be possible to do something like "3 (+2)" to show you that the new value is 3, which is 2 better than the old value.
@Mr2150: I still like them, though. You may have a point that too much information could be superfluous. Speed Factor could go. APR is important though, as are AC modifiers to certain armor types (the modifiers make Studded Leather clearly better than Hide, despite Hide having a better base AC).
I mean, how do you compare a ring that improves thieving abilities with one that gives you more spells... In that example, is it even worth doing a comparison?
I think I did express my views on the subject. If it is not a toggle option, then it should be kept subtle and as minimal as possible. It goes back to the same old problem here. If we were talking about a brand new game it would be different.
When talking about an old iconic game like this one we should keep in mind how established players might perceive it as well as new players.
As I also stated, I can see how this might be helpful if kept to a minimum for a non toggle option. If it is a toggle option then it doesn’t matter as much, but still might be used less if it gets to blinky.
Also, for AC, AC sub-values for various damage types are important, which this leaves out of the equasion.
Yes, comparisons should be toggleable. No question. As for blinking lights and bright colors not fitting the color scheme, I dislike them too. Maybe an option would be for the up/down arrows to be the same color as the text (off-white), which could still work if they're clearly indicating a positive or negative value judgment by shape alone.
I agree that even if Item Comparison becomes an optional feature (something I'm all for, btw!), we should keep it's functionality in style with the rest of the UI, and not overly flashy.
So I'm torn between just red and green text and Adul's arrows. The latter are clearer, but also more outside the norm.
@Ravenslight: Do you have any suggestions on how to include "better" and "worse" in the least flashy way?
Also, what do you think of the idea of showing the new values, followed by the improvement or downgrade in parenthesis? For example, if you go from a longsword (1d8) to a bastard sword (2d4), with a +3 bonus from strength, it could be:
[Bastard Sword]
Damage: 5-11 (+0.5)
For the replacement of odd items, like a ring of thieving with a ring of wizardry, if we filter the values shown, it shouldn't be an issue. Things I think should be included:
- AC
- AC modifier vs damage types
- Health
- THAC0
- Damage
- APR
- Perhaps saving throws?
- Perhaps resistances?
Anything else I think is unique enough that there is little point in comparing it to other items.
Another thing to consider: what if the character in question has a two-handed weapon equipped? should it still show off-hand information for one-handed weapons? If so, should it take into consideration that your main hand weapon would turn into a fist if you actually equipped it?
As I said, it gets real complicated real fast... It's a reasonable compromise between our two positions, but truthfully, I still don't see a use for the base values to appear.
For consistency's sake, I would still always show it if it has any effect. Keep in mind that it'll be at the bottom of the text field, so it's not pushing anything else out of the way. At most, you need to scroll down to see the offhand values that you don't want to see in the first place.
The Item Comparison is particularly intended for players that are new to the 2e system. On quite a few games, equipping an offhand weapon does not impact the mainhand at all. It will be helpful to show that one shouldn't just equip an offhand for the sake of it, as it has quite the impact on your mainhand as well.
I personally much rather see the base values than what changes, as I'd have to look up the old values to see what the new base values would be. It's like "If this is equipped, your value will become that. Just a +2 doesn't show that to me."
The base values also always work, even if there's no previous value. If it's a new value (like attack and damage for offhand), there IS no old value to compare it to, but there is a base value to show.
Overall, I think some people prefer to see the new values, while others prefer to see the changes. Showing both is probably the best way to go.
@Pecca: I like those icons, but they feel a little too dark for my taste.
@Ravenslight: Do you have any suggestions on how to include "better" and "worse" in the least flashy way?
Well, I can’t speak for everyone, but here are my suggestions related to the current question.
Keep such things to a minimum, only add the most important ones.
For the text involved, use darker colors, not bright red and green, but a darker more subdued red and green.
Make the “light behind them” I don’t know the correct term, subtle, not bright.
In the case of arrows, make them much smaller, use the same conditions for color and light, make them fit with the theme of the original game. Maybe a hairline outline on the edge or something, in a dark golden tone.
With any elements of the UI think, old, worn, Baldur’s Gate.
I’m going to throw in another example here. Take how the current UI has the portraits of the character who can use the item light up with a bright yellow overlay, while those that can’t wear the item go dark.
I don’t know what flashing yellow signs mean in other countries, but in the US we are taught from birth to think of such things as caution! Pay attention! So having them work the way they do now is very distracting and irritating. They are also foreign to a Baldur’s Gate game.
If I had to make that work, I would go for a more subtle approach for this game. Maybe only have the portraits go slightly brighter, no extra color. Maybe only make the ones who can’t wear it go dark and leave the rest alone.
I don’t know, but I hope you can see what I’m getting at. People want to see Baldur’s Gate when they load up these games. Not flashy new lights like they might like in some other games.
So tall thin arrows but a touch brighter, compare for example the colour of the red of the jewels in the ornamentation. They have a blend on them making them have darker edges and a lighter middle. That approach might work better as its copying the existing look.
In terms or options for the scroll box, item comparison is a given and I'm personally liking the simplicity of the coloured arrows showing the essential changes. This needs to be concise as the box cant be scrolled when holding an item, if I understand correctly?
I also like @Pecca's earlier suggestion of the scroll box being used as additional inventory space to display bag of holding contents.
I personally feel that if we provide a feature or other piece of information, that piece must be provided in a clear and easy to access way, as that's the purpose of that feature of piece of information. We should then try to display that feature or piece of information fitting as much in the BG style as possible.
To come back to the Icon Comparison, a good example is certain values being and improvement or downgrade. If this was, say, 3rd edition, I'd probably prefer to keep everything white without icons, as it's clear that higher is better. A (+2) after a value could indicate that it's 2 better than your current item, while a (-1) could indicate it's 1 worse, and there's no need for flashy colors or big icons.
Unfortunately, 2nd edition ain't very clear on what's better and what's worse, so we need to add indicators in one way or another. Red and green colors are pretty easy, but have both the downsides that they're flashy and that they aren't helping the colorblind. You could go with a darker red that's not flashy, but you quickly get complaints that it's too dark and hard to see.
So I was genuinely asking if you had any good ideas. I do like the idea of the arrows that Adul started with and Pecca improved upon. I think Pecca's arrows could be less wide as well, but certainly not less high, as it's important information, and should not be hard to read.
The yellow is indeed a bit of an odd color (and it's signal of caution is not unique to the US). If any color, I'd have expected green, as it's meant to indicate good fits. That said, I really only use it to see if any mage in my party can write a particular scroll, as that's a clear binary yes or no result. For anything else, I personally don't trust it at all.
I wouldn't mind personally if it only indicated "unable to use" by darkening the portraits, and "can write into spellbook" with a green overlay, and not using any other overlay colors. Do people actually follow the advise of whom to equip certain items to? That would be interesting to know. (Though this may be a separate discussion, not sure...)
Edit: There's the red jewel on the scroll bar too
It's a good point that scrolling the textbox while holding an item will be awkward at best! I haven't thought of that. Perhaps it's not such a good idea to repeat the item's basic stats, then. I still think it's best to display offhand values where applicable.
I also like that idea for bags of holding, but am not fully convinced just yet. Would it replace the current store interface for bags of holding, or would there be two different ways of opening it? The former would be annoying, as having to manually drag each and every item in there can be annoying. But providing more than one way to open the bag may be confusing.
So taking @Pecca 's proposal...
It's also worth noting that the purpose of the yellow lighting, the green and red etc is to get your attention and say "Hey! Something is different here... please pay attention and see what."
Whether it's the right shade/colour/whatever is a different discussion as is whether it is appropriate or not, but the purpose is to signify change and to get your attention for whatever reason.
I would still prefer to see:
Damage: 2-3 (+1)
AC: 9 (-1)
AC vs Slashing: 11 (+1)
As for scrolling while holding an item, that may be unintuitive, and perhaps not even possible on touchscreens.
It also makes it easier to understand the concepts people are trying to convey if these details are included. Not all of us think the same way. It certainly has made it easier for me to understand.
I can look at a piece of stone and see the druid and his staff that is hiding there. It is much harder for me to visualize some of the ideas that people have had here without any context.