I think less people would dislike the item comparison, if all it did was update the text field, not change the page's layout.
Still, it's a feature often linked to "modern" games, which quite a few people consider out of place for BG, so a flag to make it optional wouldn't be bad. (Not to mention that it seems to cause lag for certain people.)
Agreed. Comparison being optional has definitely been a popular idea. As has being able to turn off the yellow portrait color that appears when you select an item.
I think they are invaluable for new users and those that aren't into the numbers - just look at how many posts that ask is Sword X better than Sword Y there are here.
The same for the portrait highlighting (which I find annoying, especially when it suggests I move a ring to someone who is already wearing a copy of that ring).
I think the concept could be greatly improved however... I like the solution proposed by @Thels but I wonder if we are still too wordy with it. I'm trying to think of how other games have done similar comparisons.
I like the way the Witcher 3 does comparisons - it does away with the numbers and just has green/red up/down arrows (if memory serves) to indicate if each stat is improved or not.
Could a similar but different approach be taken here?
If it's primarily a function to support new users they will be able to very quickly grasp that this sword is better than that one for damage but worse for APR, or whatever... If they want they detail, they will need to / want to dig deeper and start looking at the numbers.
And at that point, you move from a new user to a familiar user and the need for the triangles goes away...
It's a poor justification admittedly but can you get the gist of what I mean?
1. I also don't like the screen changes when you select an item.
2. I dislike the new drag and drop animation: how your cursor "picks" up the item and drops it, rather than the old way where the cursor "became" the item you selected.
I don't like the gems idea without the name of the item, because of two major reasons:
1) For onehanded weapons or rings, the game doesn't know if you're going to equip it on the mainhand or the offhand. It could be an improvement in the mainhand, and a downgrade in the offhand, or vice versa.
2) If you grab an item from your inventory, and the gems become green, then if you drop the item in, the gems become red, which makes it feel like you just did something bad, but it's because you now have the old item in your cursor, and the game starts assuming you want to equip that item.
Also, I just like having a little more information there. By listing the item's basic information, you don't have to go into item details as much, saving quite a few clicks.
@Baptor: Current ideas are to make the item comparison values less intrusive by updating a textfield (or maybe gems), rather than changing the layout of the interface, as well as making the values optional.
The gem comparison idea has pretty much the same flaws as the current scheme in v2.3
Currently, the comparison scheme already is unaware of where you intend to equip the picked up item. So I believe it just compares against mainhand item/one ring. So to have both hands compared we already need more sophistication. This should be quite easy to do regardless of what the comparison scheme looks like.
Any comparison scheme would suffer from the 2nd one - that's what happens when you pick up an item and equip it, the old item is then placed in your cursor for you to do something with - and so it forces a comparison against the newly equipped item as soon as they swap. This might be tougher to change.
HOWEVER... How about something like this:
IF you have toggled item comparisons on then an extra box appears on the inventory screen somewhere. The placement of the box and look/feel can be decided later, but let's just the discuss the concept for now.
Here I've put it into the existing feedback textbox:
You have item comparisons toggled ON. So, you pick up an item and drop it into the new box. The text area to the right will then be updated with the comparison (in the format you listed before @Thels ).
You have to specifically request the comparison of the item by dropping the new item in.
That way - it doesn't happen unless you put it into the comparison box. It is completely optional. Even if you have it switched on, you don't get a comparison unless you specifically request it. Picking up items/equipping them doesn't change the comparison or cause lag because that's a normal function and not part of the 'putting an item in the comparison box'.
That could work, but it would be more clicks once more.
I think the problem is not a problem if the item in question is mentioned by name. For example, with the Longsword and the Longsword +1 example, when grabbing the Longsword +1, if the comparison text box leads with Longsword +1, then it's clear that that happens when equipping the Longsword +1. When you swap the weapons, and it says Longsword, it's clear that that's the updates when you'd equip the Longsword once more.
These seem to be two mutually exclusive goals to me. Aren't they?
I don't think so.
Any feature request on Redmine is really just a suggestion. The fact we have had a huge debate and looked at different options, considering obscure and traditional ways of doing it gives the devs extra feedback and/or justifications for changing or not changing the current product v2.3 and guides them for future products too.
Indeed. Everyone now has a vote of confidence that the team is actually looking, and not only at the feature requests, but at these discussions as well. A feature request on Redmine would be a good base point, and these discussions will provide details and explanation of different opionions.
At the risk of taking us back to prose, what's the point of submitting to Redmine then, when the developers already know about this thread and are already watching?
When you make a request on Redmine, you have to follow a certain structure, that is more understandable than 18+ pages. When you make such a request, you have to put all the ideas in the most clear way, while these discussions can be an additinal source of information after the technical staff look at the request. Also, registering a request in the tracker is also useful so that people working with that tracker always see how many requests are there and what they about are .
I was certainly under the impression that Dee started these “Making it work:” threads in order to brainstorm ideas that would end up making it more appealing to a greater number of their customers.
To address the issues that have been causing many players to ask to go back to ver. 1.3
As it turned out, his last attempt to try and bring this community back together as well as make the UI work for everyone.
It was only after those involved in the character screen discussion had come to a general consensus about how they thought that could be made to work better that he asked that someone put in a request for the changes.
I'd keep the numbers for offhand THAC0 and Offhand Damage in white, as they are 'new' numbers. In the example I gave you, which you seen to use (except for Offhand THAC0, which you improved by 10), there was a shield in the offhand. So the mainhand values were pretty basic, swapping a longsword for a longsword +1, but the offhand values were a little more complex. Because you replaced a shield by an offhand weapon, you lose the shield AC (which I think you forgot to include), you receive mainhand penalties to THAC0 from dualwielding, and you add offhand statistics. Since there wasn't an offhand weapon before, there is nothing to compare it to, so values should be in white, maybe?
Yeah - I just messed around with the numbers and colours for illustration purposes.
I agree with your colouring proposal however I think it's probably a good discussion point on the offhand change from no weapon/shield to a weapon. Are the weapon values 'new' or 'replacement', and how to convey that effectively...
Maybe it might be an idea to have four colours???
Red - Less effective Green - More effective White - No Change to the stat Yellow - Other change, eg going from no weapon/shield to an equipped weapon
I'm fine with using yellow (maybe gold) for 'new values'. As for no change to the stat, I'd leave those lines out altogether, and only show the difference. If not, who's to say what information is and is not to be included? For example, if equipping the Chesley Crusher, it would be nice to show that APR changes to 1 (or from 1 if equipping a different weapon instead), but when swapping from longsword to longsword +1, indicating that the APR doesn't change feels like wasted space.
The way it works now is the comparison always assumes weapons go in the main hand. Which is certainly not ideal for some characters, but it has a simplicity that's easy to understand and works well most of the time.
Here's a fusion of two different ideas, the simple stat change printout and the colored arrows:
I like that @Adul , it is effective and clear...I think the point about offhand and mainhand is valid too so if there was two lists for the comparison depending on where you could equip it, I'd be happy with it.
I hope we are talking about a toggle able options here as I really dislike more colored lights blinking.
I can kind of see how a subtle and subdued red or green added to the stats might be a helpful option. But here again less is better, in my opinion. If you start adding yellow and up and down arrows etc. it starts to just become more distracting then helpful.
I personally like @Mr2150 's version over @Adul 's version, again, because:
- Mr2150 separates mainhand values from offhand values. The 2.0 interface couldn't specifically handle that separation, but in a scrollable textwindow it should be easy to implement. Worst case scenario, you need to scroll down for the offhand value, but since this would otherwise be invisible, I don't consider that a loss. (Admittedly, though, this can also be done in Adul's version by listing a second box underneath.) - Mr2150 includes the weapon's base information. I really like that as it saves me the step of having to examine the item to see the item's values. It's less clicks to get to the core information of the item. - Mr2150 shows the final numbers, rather than the modifiers. Not only do I like that more in and off itself, it also prevents problems with going from say 1d6 to 2d4 damage, as well as values being added or removed.
Generally, there's a big textfield, why not make use of it?
@Ravenslight: While I agree flashy text should be kept to a minimum, 2nd edition has a lot of oddities where lower is better. Hence, there needs to be some way to indicate if a value is an improvement or a downgrade. Red for downgrade, green for improvement is an easy solution (and already used for ability scores in a way), but I'm open for other suggestions. Adul's arrows aren't too bad, as they help the colorblind, but if you have a good suggestion of your own, feel free to spill it.
Note that this is part of the item comparison. It's been suggested in this thread to make that optional, but obviously, it cannot be assured that the devs go along with that suggestion.
Hmm, off-hand could get complicated real fast. Let's take an example:
A druid character with a club in her main hand and a buckler in her off-hand.
You pick up a scimitar from the inventory.
Now let's see what the off-hand description needs:
First, she's not proficient with either scimitars or two-weapon fighting, so she gets:
+7 THAC0 +9 THAC0 (off-hand)
She also gets another APR:
+1 attack per round
Now we haven't printed out the damage difference yet, so:
+1 minimum damage (off-hand) +8 maximum damage (off-hand)
You're also replacing her buckler so she gets:
+1 AC -1 AC vs. piercing -1 AC vs. missiles
So the full comparison printout would need to be:
Scimitar +3 THAC0 +2 maximum damage
Scimitar (off-hand) +1 AC -1 AC vs. piercing -1 AC vs. missiles +7 THAC0 +9 THAC0 (off-hand) +1 minimum damage (off-hand) +8 maximum damage (off-hand) +1 attack per round
If you start involving off-hand, it gets a lot more confusing than if you just look at the main hand stats.
Comments
Still, it's a feature often linked to "modern" games, which quite a few people consider out of place for BG, so a flag to make it optional wouldn't be bad. (Not to mention that it seems to cause lag for certain people.)
The same for the portrait highlighting (which I find annoying, especially when it suggests I move a ring to someone who is already wearing a copy of that ring).
I think the concept could be greatly improved however... I like the solution proposed by @Thels but I wonder if we are still too wordy with it. I'm trying to think of how other games have done similar comparisons.
+1 damage
-1 AC
+2 AC vs. Slashing
No more lines than required, simple, easy to understand.
Oh, and since not all weapons have the same damage range, those that need to could get around that this way:
+2 maximum damage
Could a similar but different approach be taken here?
Remembering it is completely optional, would very basic guidance like this work?
Edit: And to make my MS Paint triangles look nicer they could be styled as 'gems' like the existing UI is already fond of...
And at that point, you move from a new user to a familiar user and the need for the triangles goes away...
It's a poor justification admittedly but can you get the gist of what I mean?
1. I also don't like the screen changes when you select an item.
2. I dislike the new drag and drop animation: how your cursor "picks" up the item and drops it, rather than the old way where the cursor "became" the item you selected.
1) For onehanded weapons or rings, the game doesn't know if you're going to equip it on the mainhand or the offhand. It could be an improvement in the mainhand, and a downgrade in the offhand, or vice versa.
2) If you grab an item from your inventory, and the gems become green, then if you drop the item in, the gems become red, which makes it feel like you just did something bad, but it's because you now have the old item in your cursor, and the game starts assuming you want to equip that item.
Also, I just like having a little more information there. By listing the item's basic information, you don't have to go into item details as much, saving quite a few clicks.
@Baptor: Current ideas are to make the item comparison values less intrusive by updating a textfield (or maybe gems), rather than changing the layout of the interface, as well as making the values optional.
Currently, the comparison scheme already is unaware of where you intend to equip the picked up item. So I believe it just compares against mainhand item/one ring. So to have both hands compared we already need more sophistication. This should be quite easy to do regardless of what the comparison scheme looks like.
Any comparison scheme would suffer from the 2nd one - that's what happens when you pick up an item and equip it, the old item is then placed in your cursor for you to do something with - and so it forces a comparison against the newly equipped item as soon as they swap. This might be tougher to change.
HOWEVER... How about something like this:
IF you have toggled item comparisons on then an extra box appears on the inventory screen somewhere. The placement of the box and look/feel can be decided later, but let's just the discuss the concept for now.
Here I've put it into the existing feedback textbox:
You have item comparisons toggled ON. So, you pick up an item and drop it into the new box. The text area to the right will then be updated with the comparison (in the format you listed before @Thels ).
You have to specifically request the comparison of the item by dropping the new item in.
That way - it doesn't happen unless you put it into the comparison box. It is completely optional. Even if you have it switched on, you don't get a comparison unless you specifically request it. Picking up items/equipping them doesn't change the comparison or cause lag because that's a normal function and not part of the 'putting an item in the comparison box'.
That way it removes the issue of #2...
I think the problem is not a problem if the item in question is mentioned by name. For example, with the Longsword and the Longsword +1 example, when grabbing the Longsword +1, if the comparison text box leads with Longsword +1, then it's clear that that happens when equipping the Longsword +1. When you swap the weapons, and it says Longsword, it's clear that that's the updates when you'd equip the Longsword once more.
To address the issues that have been causing many players to ask to go back to ver. 1.3
As it turned out, his last attempt to try and bring this community back together as well as make the UI work for everyone.
It was only after those involved in the character screen discussion had come to a general consensus about how they thought that could be made to work better that he asked that someone put in a request for the changes.
Is this the kind of thing you envisioned for optional Item Comparison?
The numbers used are made up just to see the concept.
I'd keep the numbers for offhand THAC0 and Offhand Damage in white, as they are 'new' numbers. In the example I gave you, which you seen to use (except for Offhand THAC0, which you improved by 10), there was a shield in the offhand. So the mainhand values were pretty basic, swapping a longsword for a longsword +1, but the offhand values were a little more complex. Because you replaced a shield by an offhand weapon, you lose the shield AC (which I think you forgot to include), you receive mainhand penalties to THAC0 from dualwielding, and you add offhand statistics. Since there wasn't an offhand weapon before, there is nothing to compare it to, so values should be in white, maybe?
I agree with your colouring proposal however I think it's probably a good discussion point on the offhand change from no weapon/shield to a weapon. Are the weapon values 'new' or 'replacement', and how to convey that effectively...
Maybe it might be an idea to have four colours???
Red - Less effective
Green - More effective
White - No Change to the stat
Yellow - Other change, eg going from no weapon/shield to an equipped weapon
Here's a fusion of two different ideas, the simple stat change printout and the colored arrows:
I can kind of see how a subtle and subdued red or green added to the stats might be a helpful option. But here again less is better, in my opinion. If you start adding yellow and up and down arrows etc. it starts to just become more distracting then helpful.
- Mr2150 separates mainhand values from offhand values. The 2.0 interface couldn't specifically handle that separation, but in a scrollable textwindow it should be easy to implement. Worst case scenario, you need to scroll down for the offhand value, but since this would otherwise be invisible, I don't consider that a loss. (Admittedly, though, this can also be done in Adul's version by listing a second box underneath.)
- Mr2150 includes the weapon's base information. I really like that as it saves me the step of having to examine the item to see the item's values. It's less clicks to get to the core information of the item.
- Mr2150 shows the final numbers, rather than the modifiers. Not only do I like that more in and off itself, it also prevents problems with going from say 1d6 to 2d4 damage, as well as values being added or removed.
Generally, there's a big textfield, why not make use of it?
@Ravenslight: While I agree flashy text should be kept to a minimum, 2nd edition has a lot of oddities where lower is better. Hence, there needs to be some way to indicate if a value is an improvement or a downgrade. Red for downgrade, green for improvement is an easy solution (and already used for ability scores in a way), but I'm open for other suggestions. Adul's arrows aren't too bad, as they help the colorblind, but if you have a good suggestion of your own, feel free to spill it.
Note that this is part of the item comparison. It's been suggested in this thread to make that optional, but obviously, it cannot be assured that the devs go along with that suggestion.
You pick up a scimitar from the inventory.
Now let's see what the off-hand description needs:
First, she's not proficient with either scimitars or two-weapon fighting, so she gets:
+7 THAC0
+9 THAC0 (off-hand)
She also gets another APR:
+1 attack per round
Now we haven't printed out the damage difference yet, so:
+1 minimum damage (off-hand)
+8 maximum damage (off-hand)
You're also replacing her buckler so she gets:
+1 AC
-1 AC vs. piercing
-1 AC vs. missiles
So the full comparison printout would need to be:
+3 THAC0
+2 maximum damage
Scimitar (off-hand)
+1 AC
-1 AC vs. piercing
-1 AC vs. missiles
+7 THAC0
+9 THAC0 (off-hand)
+1 minimum damage (off-hand)
+8 maximum damage (off-hand)
+1 attack per round
If you start involving off-hand, it gets a lot more confusing than if you just look at the main hand stats.