Imoen's size-cutting blade

Papa_Lou

Hey dudes.

I'm currently in the Nashkel Mines, and Imoen is doing a pretty good job at piercing some kobold skulls with her bow. For some reason, though, she seems to think she's swinging a sword, as one of the voice clips I hear most often has her saying "my blade will cut ya' down to size!"

So my question is, has anyone ever used Imoen as an up-close-and-personal character, stabbing things with a sword? Every time she's in my party, I've had her using a bow, and I'm curious to find out if she's very useful with the sword she seems so proud of.

JumboWheat01

I've never thought of using her in melee combat, thanks to her abysmal Strength score. Heck, the only thing I usually let her carry are spell scrolls or other near-zero weight items, since some armor takes up almost all her carrying capacity.

sarevok57

I think the only way she is going to be useful with a melee weapon is if you give her the gauntlets of ogre power, because with that measly 9 STR her ferocity with melee weaponry will be as effective as the smile of a new born baby

and even with the mits of ogre power, you will really want her to backstab, to really take advantage of the big STR boost

but other than that, I do as you do, just use her as a bower and life is good

JuliusBorisov

@semiticgod has found a way for Imoen to be deadly with a melee weapon in BG2 (this is all I can say without giving away any spoilers).

alceryes

Yeah, that soundbite is a little out of place.
Giving her the ogre hands and having her as a secondary melee attacker (after enemies aggro on your tank) is doable but not the best strategy - she'll still die a lot. You could also put a pip in dagger and have her stab, next target, stab, next target, stab, next target, to spread around the poison damage of the dagger of venom. Unfortunately, the enemies she'll actually be able to hit aren't worth the trouble because they usually die in one hit anyway.

Sooooo, no, give her the shortbow and let her pick locks and disarm traps.

semiticgoddess

JuliusBorisov said:

@semiticgod has found a way for Imoen to be deadly with a melee weapon in BG2 (this is all I can say without giving away any spoilers).

Any mage, including Imoen if she dual-classes, can actually deal a lot of damage using Polymorph Self. I don't know if the most recent version of EE still permits it, but at least in older versions, you could switch to spider form to gain 4 attacks per round, then use a Shocking Grasp Minor Sequencer to dispel the spider weapon, and attack with any weapon at 4 APR, still shapeshifted. In certain versions, unfortunately, removing the spider weapon will also return you to natural form. I used this trick in my Party of Spiders run, and found that Jan was especially powerful when using the Firetooth crossbow and his flashers, being able to stun-lock almost anything--including Melissan!

Even if you don't use the Shocking Grasp trick, Polymorph Self can help a lot in melee combat if you use the spider form, ogre form, or flind form. In BG2:EE if not BG:EE, the spider form does lots of poison damage without a saving throw, and in all versions, ogre form and flind form have strong damage output due to their high base damage and APR, though their THAC0 will not match a fighter's.

TheArtisan

Funnily enough I sometimes put Imoen in frontline duty for the very early part of BG1 because between her 18 DEX and ability to use armor and a buckler she can actually have some of the better AC stats in the party and in some cases she's literally the only one in my party capable of avoiding hits. Additionally with 16 CON she might even be able to live if she does get hit. Unfortunately she doesn't deal much damage but that's not what she's for.

Kurona

@semiticgod The Shocking Grasp/Chill Touch exploit doesn't work anymore (at least in a Minor Sequencer, haven't tested scroll casting). Still Polymoph Self (and Shapechange) remain incredibly powerful spells, perhaps even more than before because now they can't be dispelled.

semiticgoddess

@Kurona: Odd. I noticed the exploit working in unmodded Siege of Dragonspear, but not working in a BG2:EE install with my SCS files removed, so I wasn't really sure. It's quite sad; that was a very interesting exploit, and the inability to cast spells helped balance it somewhat.

If a sequencer won't work, then neither will a scroll. The way they closed the exploit was to attach the polymorph effect to the magical weapon (PLYSPID for the spider, PLYFLIND for the flind, etc.) rather than to the shapeshifting spell itself. This means that removing the weapon also removes the polymorph effect by default; it doesn't matter whether you cast Shocking Grasp via scroll or sequencer.

I believe Beamdog took this innovation from @Demivrgvs, who used this exact method to close the exploit in his Spell Revisions mod, long before EE.

Demivrgvs

semiticgod said:

I believe Beamdog took this innovation from @Demivrgvs, who used this exact method to close the exploit in his Spell Revisions mod, long before EE.

@semiticgod one of my two trusty coders of SR worked on both EE and SoD, no wonder they knew a lot of tricks I used.

I eliminated the exploit, but in exchange SR's Polymorph Self (not to mention Shapechange) is a lot more versatile than before. Sooner or later I think I'll also replace the Flind form with flaming halberd with a Fire Salamander.

Speaking of Shocking Grasp/Chill Touch instead, I don't know if I made them truly appealing (especially the latter). My current build make them count as actual spells (bypass PfMW but blocked by Spell Deflection). I did the same for Cause Wound spells and touch spells in general. What do you think about it?

Arthas

@Demivrgvs who is that coder? Ardanis?

mf2112

Imoen in my games wakes up and casts a strength spell to have 18/50 for 8 hours. But she still only melees when necessary.

semiticgoddess

@Demivrgvs:

I never used Shocking Grasp, but it seemed balanced to me. I probably would use it if the stun lasted for 9 to 12 seconds instead of 6. I don't remember Chill Touch; I'm not sure how it was.

I actually liked the Cause Wounds spells. Mostly because they were a fast way of dealing damage to golems, which I understand you want to remove, but also because they bypassed Stoneskin (!) and were therefore a strong means of dealing with enemy mages. The balance depends heavily on whether they strike as weapons, bypassing spell protections, or strike as spells, bypassing weapon immunities. I think they would be more interesting as spells, bypassing PFMW and the like.

Ardanis

Demivrgvs said:

one of my two trusty coders of SR worked on both EE and SoD, no wonder they knew a lot of tricks I used.

Tbh, my involvement with system design was very limited. About 99% of my time was spent on scripting (plot, AI, subsystems) and level/encounter design, items/spells merely being assets to be used.

Arthas said:

who is that coder? Ardanis?

Yes.

Wowo

There's a Short Sword +2 available very very early in the game and with it Imoen would make a great front line combatant given her AC and HP.

Demivrgvs

On topic: Imoen has base 18 DEX and 9 STR. You can work around it and get her in melee, but she is hugely more effective if almost fully committed to spellcasting and a short bow optimize her free time between spells.

Off-topic: @semiticgod any chance to get some quick feedback from you on the current state of SRv4 spells? I asked something similar to @Jaheiras_Witness and it was very useful but we stopped after discussing 1st lvl spells.

"I actually liked the Cause Wounds spells. ... The balance depends heavily on whether they strike as weapons, bypassing spell protections, or strike as spells, bypassing weapon immunities. I think they would be more interesting as spells, bypassing PFMW and the like." -> that's exactly how they work on my current build