Has BG:EE lost something?

BelgarathMTH

Hello, I've recently gotten into a phase of playing very old school games from the late 1990's. It started when I got back into Dark Wizard, a Sega CD game that was my very first video RPG/strategy game.

It got me to thinking about doing another BG run, as I named my units in Dark Wizard after BG characters. So, I started up a BG:EE run, planning to finally try new content from Neera and Rasaad through the trilogy.

I got really turned off when Neera committed suicide again for the umpteenth time during her own recruitment encounter and I had to reload. Also, something started to strike me as very artificial about all the updating - the kits, the interface, the new AI, everything.

I've begun to remember a certain je ne sais quoi quality about the original, completely unmodded BG1 and BG2, that I'm all of a sudden missing.

I have the same feeling about a mysterious lost quality with the Heroes of Might and Magic series, which lost quality began for me with Homm3. I actually prefer Homm1 and Homm2 over Homm3, to a certain extent, and I prefer the first three Homm installments leaps and bounds over any other installments in that series - but especially 1 and 2.

To this day I think Might and Magic 6-8 are the best D&D style games I've ever played, even better than BG, although BG certainly holds a place on my top 10 loved games.

Is this merely nostalgia on my part? That's certainly a factor, but I don't think it explains what I'm looking for here. All the modern attempts to recapture the alchemical magic I'm reaching for here, such as Pillars of Eternity, Divinity Original Sin, or Dragon Age, have fallen flat for me in some way. I always lose interest in them and go back to my classics again and again.

I wonder if the fact that my first love of D&D came from my experiences playing tabletop 1st edition AD&D with very fondly remembered friends during my senior year in high school and first years of college, in 1982-1987, has something to do with this? Could it be that the early computer games I love so much duplicate that tabletop experience in a solitaire form better than any of the later offerings from game developers? Have the developers lost touch with the magic of the tabletop gaming experience?

I'm about to replay the original BG1 on Gog.com to see if I can recapture the feeling that I'm missing again.

Does anyone else understand or have insights into what I'm trying to get at here?

ajwz

I think Yes and No

A lot of influential books and films considered classics have the problem of looking tired and cliche to a modern audience, because that the ideas they examined and tropes they used became a standard in other peoples writing as a result of their success

BelgarathMTH said:

Have the developers lost touch with the magic of the tabletop gaming experience?

Some people might argue that the tabletop gaming experience has lost touch with the magic of the tabletop gaming experience

I understand your points though and I don't think it can all be attributed to nostalgia goggles

Gallenger

I certainly preferred the "look" of the original bg1 to the Tutu version we've ultimately got in EE - but it's not actually beamdog's fault as most of the original model's assets have been lost and BG1's Infinity engine doesn't play well with modern systems unlike BG2's. Really the only way to get the full authentic BG1 experience is to have a PC with era appropriate hardware and drivers or live with all the really strange quirks (green water, black textures, no multiplayer).

Every time somebody makes a game they do something at least a little different that's the main thing with HoMM 1-3 they're all at least a little different - it'd be boring to just resell the same game over and over and some will hit certain notes better than others. Heroes 5 I gave a pretty solid chance, it was OK, but not what 1-3 were for me.

Most of BG:EEs improvements make the game demonstrably better. None of the NPCs have the kitted classes (besides the EE added NPCs, that you can just ignore completely), so you can again ignore the kits and extra classes, and even half-orc as well if it pleases you. It's just an added option.

I'll agree I did like the original GUI/HUD of BG1 - but I'm sure there's just as many people out there who *hate* having the screen covered with the stone texture lol. There are also mods available that can get you rather close to the original thing and aren't *that* hard to get working.

Another big thing for me in screen resolution - I *have* to zoom in way close and lock the camera - because it just doesn't feel right to play it all zoomed out-like lol.

Another interesting thing is the increased ammo stack sizes. In the original ammo was a major concern and you always ended up with at least 1-2 NPCs who were basically just ammo mules - not so anymore! So a core, but inadvertent, game-play feature (ammo hoarding and also dealing with insufficient inventory space) has been changed/dampened.

On the whole I'm perfectly happy with BG:EE, but if I *really* want to feel like a kid again I'll search around for GUI mods lol.

God

dockaboomski

I know where you are coming from, @BelgarathMTH . I am missed out on playing BG when it came out, due to me being 2, but even still, I have a certain nostalgia for the older versions of the games. They have character, mostly due to age, and playing them is fun in a way that playing the EEs is not.

mf2112

I don't think a solo gaming experience can ever recreate the DnD tabletop experience with friends because it isn't possible. I played tabletop for years with a group of friends before computers came out, then when games were developed we played them together. Many earlier games involved just two at a time if we were lucky, Arcnet and token ring were tough to keep more than two computers stable with in those days but when the various DnD games came out we played them as a group, all of us around the best computer I had, telling the one controlling the keyboard what to do with our characters. That was the same kind of experience as tabletop, because the computer literally was on the tabletop on one end of the kitchen table while we crowded around watching the screen together.

Even then, I would say something was lost. The feeling of participating actively, rolling the dice, writing notes with pencils on actual paper character sheets, trying to keep a rough map of the dungeon going based on the DM's descriptions, flipping through various books looking up class details, talking to each other.

With the computer, even in the same room with a group, you are participating more passively. I would guess that most people play the BG games (and most games really) as solo players, so there is no real interaction at all.

To me that active interaction was the unique thing we (my circle of friends) had for a few years that made DnD special. The computer games didn't ruin it, we drifted away after college and the world of gainful employment called, but the convenience of the computer taking on such a large portion of the game experience also meant that the computer took on a larger portion of the game experience where you didn't have to work at it and you didn't have to use your imagination nearly as much.

JuliusBorisov

I would say that the EEs are not meant to substitute the original games. To me, the main idea of the EEs is to revive the broader interest to IE games, to make it easier to run them on modern devices, to let play them on tablets. The original games are still there, for people who already have them and for those who manage to buy them nowadays (they are a part of the GoG.com offer for the EEs, though).

Like BelgarathMTH, I choose Might and Magic games among my most favourite ever. Like BelgarathMTH, I couldn't find the same feelings and emotions (that I had with BG and M&M games) while playing Pillars of Eternity and Divinity Original Sin. For Dragon Age, my view is different - these games, while certainly being less old-school, have offered me the best NPCs in computer games.

From time to time I revisit the old games that were among the first I played after getting a PC. Age of Empires, HoMM (although I didn't have a chace to try the first and the second installments prior to trying HoMM 3). And I get from these games exactly the same I got many years ago from them.

This is why I believe some people can indeed love original BG1 nowadays. Because for them it recreates exactly the same they saw and felt many years ago.

It's just that I can't deliberately choose playing BG without all the additions: bug fixes, classes, kits, saving times, additional information available on the Inventory UI.

But looking on myself playing an old Diablo game "as is", or playing Mandate of Heaven, or playing HoMM3, I perfectly see why I'm doing it: I like feeling nostalgia and I like feeling "as if I were 15 years younger". So, these should be reasons to play original BG1, and I understand it.

Raduziel

BelgarathMTH said:

Is this merely nostalgia on my part?

Yup.

ThacoBell

There is nothing in the old games not in the EE that I miss. For me they are an improvement in practiacally every way. But I can understand nostalgia, my sense of nostalgia is simply not what it once was.

BelgarathMTH

Here are some differences in the original game that most people have likely either forgotten or never experienced. I'm finding it very interesting to play it again after so many years playing the EE's. In some ways, it's a very different game.

-Imoen does not come with a wand of Magic Missiles. This makes the early assassin battles much more difficult.

-Jaheira and Khalid come with 3150 experience points each. This puts Jaheira on the verge of being druid2/fighter2, and Khalid is already 2nd level and on the verge of 3rd level. I think it fits the story better that they are more experienced than Charname, and the early game is balanced to assume those extra hit points being available.

-Jaheira's Entangle spell is much more useful, because it's party friendly. I wish the Entangle spell hadn't been changed in BG2.

-The smaller ammo stacks increase my suspense, excitement, and immersion, as well as being more realistic. Ammo is precious, and there's only so much of it you can carry.

-The BG1 weapon proficiency system allows you to equip more wooden weapons to cope with the iron crisis. I also think it makes more sense than the BG2 system. What, you can swing a mace, but you can't swing a club? They're functionally the same two weapons.

-There are lots of aesthetic differences. Some sound files have apparently been redone or lost - for example, there is a very realistic sound of a bow being fired or a stone being slung. The spell incantations are more exotic and setting-specific than the pseudo-latin ones from BG2. The BG1 character sprites are beautiful in their detail, especially considering the low resolution.

-Not being able to pause on inventory screen makes me plan ahead, and increases suspense and immersion for me. Quick slots are precious. Minsc carrying Boo is a real disadvantage for him. One of the true class fighter's main advantages was supposed to be the four quick weapon slots. That actually means something in the original version of the game.

-The encounters are different. Sometimes they're easier, sometimes they're harder. I'm not sure if it's actually better, it's just different from what I'm used to. It's nice to occasionally get a surprise with what comes out of the fog.

-I actually kind of like the original native resolution, because it makes everything in the game up close and personal. I've never cared for zoomed out resolution that makes the characters look sharp, but very small. I think the original resolution looks slightly better than zoomed in EE.

-As mentioned often around the forums, BG2 kits really don't belong in this game. They upset the balance, and weren't implemented to account for progressing them through levels 1-8. The kits wind up being either game-breaking (which EE has tried to address through rebalancing and difficulty modes), or really sucky. (I'm looking at you, Rasaad.)

Some inconveniences I could do without:

-Slow walking speed. Really, really, slow as turtles walking speed.

-Terrible pathfinding, the worst it ever was. It makes me appreciate how much the EE's have improved it.

-Having to pixel hunt and find every corpse to loot it. Easter egg magic items do not light up with tab, and are really hard to zero in on. This makes me appreciate the loot button in the EE's.

Milo

I just played through BG (GOG version), finishing up last weekend. I hadn't played the vanilla game in at least 5 years, and likely wouldn't have this time either except I've shelved the EEs until the inventory lag is dealt with.

I had a blast, and while nostalgia was a part of it, the main thing was what you hit on - balance. The game just doesn't handle kits/weapon styles well.

BTW I think the first couple differences you listed (no wand for Imoen, higher xp for Khalid) occur when you play a multi-classed character. Imoen had a wand in my game (single class fighter) and Khalid had his usual 42 experience.

(I'm a little sad that I remember Khalid started with 42 exp. I've played this game so, so much)

Ravenslight

You really had me ready to fire up a vanilla game @BelgarathMTH , until you mentioned the lack of tab and the path finding. Sigh… I suddenly feel very spoiled.

ajwz

thedamages said:

There is nothing in the old games not in the EE that I miss. For me they are an improvement in practiacally every way. But I can understand nostalgia, my sense of nostalgia is simply not what it once was.

If only @AndreaColombo was still around to extoll the virtues of BG1's orginal sprites

Gallenger

You can increase the walking speed in the original BG by way of going into it's configure tool and turning up one of the net settings - causes the game to move slightly faster than default - IIRC most people playing on heat.net back in the day used a setting 10 higher than the default (40 iirc).

I always remember Imoen having a Wand

The inventory screen *was* paused UNLESS you tried to fiddle with somebody's armor *then* you had problems because you would instantly unpause the game - but would have to manually close the inventory screen, so your poor folks would be getting slaughtered until you got out of the screen to hit the space bar again if you had party AI turned off lol.

ThacoBell

Imoen always had a wand for me as well.

O_Bruce

For me, yes, Enhanced Editon of Baldur's Gate lost something, but I'm afraid it's not related to core gameplay or overall feel of the game. In this aspects, the game seems to just gain more options and some anti-frustration features. Both of them being welcomed by me with open arms. As nostalgic as Baldur's Gate was, I think Enhanced Edition is just better. And I remember one poll, which people voted, whether they will come back to vanilla BG sometimes. I assumed I would, but in fact I found myself unable to do so.

If there is something I miss from vanilla, it's voicovers in my native language. But I learned that I should not expect it to happen, regardless of what Blues or Trent Oster himself are saying. The whole matter is just not worth my stress.

Kamigoroshi

Of course the EE's have lost something: the source files.

ajwz

Kamigoroshi said:

Of course the EE's have lost something: the source files.

Plus I don't think the games support windows 95 OS anymore

BelegCuthalion

For me, what's lost is not in the EE, but the context ...

Computer games in the end of the 90ies were 15" crt screens, cd-roms (waiting for loads!) and still often modifying autoexec.bat and config.sys (not for BG of course). There was also no internet in the form we know it today.
I was somewhat 18 then, and Baldurs Gate was my many-hours-at-once evening escape, diving in at 6pm, and being pushed to bed by some early morning to-do somewhen past midnight.

Today my life is more distracted by family, grown up stuff, work, the internet, and so on – i rarely find more than four hours a week(!) to play, and even more rarely it's in one chunk, there's always some interruption, distraction, whatever, be it forced on my or coming from within as my attention span has changed.

*This* is disturbing my immersion – it's not at all about screen resolution or stone textures. I played the vanilla originals from cd rom a while ago, just to feel it ... nah, it's the same "something is different" as it is with the EEs.

Of course, the EEs are kind of different to the originals in interface and gameplay, but it's not the vanilla originals were so damn perfect and the EEs are worse. In sum, convenience wins, and the EEs are just far more convenint ... so my cd roms stay where they are, and the originals stay in good but past memory as a wonderful experience back then, not today.

elminster

Ye old days of no spawn limit. Come get me Sarevok! You'll just have to cut through my army of skeletons, gibberlings, hobgoblins, and wolves.

dockaboomski

BelgarathMTH said:

-I actually kind of like the original native resolution, because it makes everything in the game up close and personal. I've never cared for zoomed out resolution that makes the characters look sharp, but very small. I think the original resolution looks slightly better than zoomed in EE.

I knew I'm not the only one!

alceryes

I too remember the original BG days, fondly.
However, I thoroughly enjoy the extra class kits, better pathfinding, better AI, better graphics, and all the other nice little touches added in. I might have achieved some of the balancing changes (decisions) a bit differently but as a whole I feel the EE editions have lost nothing compared to what they've gained. Which is a tremendous accomplishment for Beamdog considering how 'particular' the Baldur's Gate core audience is.

I smile wholeheartedly when I look back to my old gaming (CRPG and PnP) adventures. I think many who 'look through the lens' of their childhood do. But ask yourself one thing. Did the game really change, or was it just you?

batoor

I don't feel that way. Even with all the updates to 2.0, a lot of them are customizable through the options anyway. So the game can still be made to look and feel mostly like it always did.

I've only done BG1 through a BGT install, so it's a bit hard for me to judge the vanilla bg1.

I would still say the old BG2 vanilla is perfectly playable on pc though, even without the EE additions. And the vanilla is probably better for people with really old hardware. My old laptop last time I used it had some really painful slowdowns with the EE version back on patch 1.3 Particularly with a large group of enemies, certain spell effects and uhm dragon battles I think..I don't know about patch 2.0 though. A BGT install had no such problems on my toaster laptop.

So if I only have access to an old toaster pc or laptop, I'll probably go with the vanilla.

ThacoBell

@batoor Oh man, vanilla BG1 is a different beast.

batoor

I'm sure it is, but I tried BG2 first and when I first had a taste of class kits, I couldn't go back^^

So it was BGT or tutu.

Pecca

I see it this way: Playing vanilla games was part of an era, which is now gone. It's not the game alone that did the trick, it's the gaming experience I was able to afford back then, that is just impossible to afford now, I mean countless hours spent deeply submerged in the game, while pushing all the RL responsibilities away.
I run the old games from time to time, usually when I'm looking for some art resource. It strikes fond memories again, but the game itself isn't better because of it. Nowadays convenience really comes in handy. And speaking of convenience...

Looo-oooooooooooooooooo-ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo-ooooading times.

BelgarathMTH

This was really interesting for me, but I've already gone back to playing EE. I can appreciate its improvements even more now.

I think the people who've said the "something lost" is a phase of youth in life rather than anything in particular about the game are probably right.

There's one thing I really hate about the EE's though - the way they force Neera's encounters on you. That's what got me to wanting to try reverting to the original games in the first place.

I can ignore Dorn in the FAI, and he doesn't exist in my game, and I can ignore Rasaad outside the Nashkel Inn, and he doesn't exist in my game, but Neera. Oh gods, how I hate her, and especially her first encounter on the north side of Beregost.

More weirdness happened there during my play session tonight - when the encounter triggered, I had the party run and scatter to get away from Neera before she killed herself and everybody else in my party with Color Sprays. Neera then followed me and gave me her "thanks for killing those red wizards for me, let me join you" dialogue, while the thrice-damned red wizards' party was still attacking us.

I told her to get lost, and kept running. The remaining wizard knocked out Jaheira with his own Color Spray, then hit her with a Flame Arrow. She survived it with two hit points. Luckily, he also knocked out his own remaining guard.

We got him, but not before he killed first level Imoen with a three-spread Magic Missile.

Color Spray is a murder-your-friends and then get killed yourself because you killed all your friends spell. That's why almost nobody who wants to stay alive ever uses it.

I would like the EE's a lot better if they didn't try to force Neera and her insanity on the player. They made the rest of their "new content" optional, so why not Neera?

Other than that, the EE's are looking pretty good to me right now. More choices for play, more convenience, beautiful widescreen.

EDIT: Maybe what I'm supposed to do is to just take the dialog option that tells the red wizards to go ahead and take her, but the lawful good in me has a hard time seeing that as an option.

mf2112

I can easily see lawful good RP resulting in letting them take her. Wild magic is anything but lawful and could surely result in bad or even dangerous consequences. Even if the wild mage was good, for the greater good I can see that as a not-unreasonable justification.

Pecca

@BelgarathMTH if you don't mind mods I'd recommend you Disable Enhanced Edition NPCs for BG:EE & BG2:EE Mod. You can either remove the new NPCs completely or just disable their forced introduction.
Btw, IIRC normally Rasaad also intervenes in your fight with Nimbul.

I also recommend: BG:EE Classic Movies
and Original casting sounds

BelgarathMTH

Well, I just went through the Neera encounter again. This time, I told the red wizards to take her. It didn't matter. They still attack the party after Neera teleports the leader away, and Neera still forces her join dialogue on you during combat if you try to run. Beating the remaining wizard cost us two healing potions, and Jaheira almost died to his Flame Arrow and Magic Missiles.

Maybe I'll look into that mod.

alceryes

What difficulty are you playing on? Any mods that change casting behavior?
When I meet Neera (whether to have her join or to just grab the gem bag), the encounter rarely leads to her death or a death in my party. Sometimes she color spray's one in my group but even then I usually succeed without anyone dying.