Stupifier nerfed (!?)

yksimalt

To my dismay it seems The Stupifier has been nerfed.

Previously 25% chance to stun opponent, no save.

Now 10% chance, with save opportunity.

It was my favorite weapon. I suspect a large-scale conspiracy... ;-)

/A.

Danacm

Yes it netfed at past, i thought 1.3 maybe. I usually modding it to pre nerf state. Its interesting to nerf items, abilities but never change kits.

JuliusBorisov

The change was a part of the 2.0 update. 25% chance to stun opponent with no save is probably too much for BG1.

Aerakar

It was changed in 2.0 as noted in the release notes. The nerf was explained as a needed reduction in power of the Stupifier, as the developers considered it overpowered for BG1.

I miss the old version also. Viconia rocked with that mace! IIRC, it is the only decent mace before that +2 one late in the game, so now Viconia is back to hammers...

Wowo

It's old mechanic made it the strongest weapon in the game bar none.

Now it's still a good weapon considering that it's so easily accessible when you know where it is.

yksimalt

Indeed, one has to love the weapon.

I usually used it for the party Cleric, and as a side note managed to get the "stun" effect first hit with an evil party going for Drizzt's swords.

Drizzt literally did not know what hit him, and had no time to reflect upon it either as the rest of the group cut him into pieces in his stunned state.

The group still talks about it around the fire before resting...

/A.

Danacm

JuliusBorisov said:

The change was a part of the 2.0 update. 25% chance to stun opponent with no save is probably too much for BG1.

Ye ye, balance issues in an offline single player game. It was good when bg1 released, but nerfed in bgee...
And other balance issues like berserker kit rage, goblet of durgag etc are fine.

I think stupifier was fine as it was. Its bg1 content.

bob_veng

durlag's goblet is not fine and i'm sure devs are aware that it's a problematic item, especially since you can bring it to sod and get a lot more mileage from it but they regard it as out of their purview because, y'know, tradition and people opposed to change. but of course they can fiddle with their own additions as much as they like. that's something very much under their scope of responsibility so your comparison is invalid.

it would be reckless to add a poorly designed item and claim it's an enhancement. remember that everything beamdog does is supposed to enhance the game, make it ever more excellent ("enhanced edition"). just adding random stuff doesn't cut it. but, sadly, they apparently very much like adding random stuff, so sanity-checking this addition was long overduem

UnderstandMouseMagic

Yes, "the stupifier" is overpowered.

But then again, that's balanced by the player having to get a "pip" in maces which has a knock on effect elsewhere.

It's far too simple to just point at an issue and say let's change that when the game itself has lots of ways to balance things out.

And then to change it so drastically?
What happened to compromise?
I.E, down to 10% and keep the "no save" or vice versa?

PK2748

It's a magical weapon you can find and acquire at level one without any risk at all. You pick a lock or smash a drawer in a hotel room. It's like a Gideon bible. It shouldn't be the most powerful weapon you use for the entire first game. I would have preferred it stay awesome and be carried to BG2 but I think the solution that that would have been to make it hard to get

bleusteel

Stupifier was introduced in BG:EE so it's not like Beamdog took a weapon created in the 90s and nerfed it. Beamdog created it and later decided it was too powerful. Fair enough. One may mod it back to its old state if one desires.

Danacm

@bleusteel you are right. I checked in bg1 and no stupifier in it. I remember it wrong.

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bob_veng

anyway, where did i stop...

oh right, the durlag's goblet

you see, durlag's goblet was designed for players who already completed BG and imported their party to ToTSC.
durlag's goblet is an absolute end-game item in an ending that was made to be fairly hard for it's time. (not that hard anymore since the game has been made progressively easier over the years) and it probably wasn't meant to be reloaded as a wand.
also no fear-immune kits back then.
if the developers of the day knew that such an item would carry over to the following chapters of the game (SoD), they simply would not have included it, i'm sure, because it was made as one of those end-game curiosities, not something you can play a whole game with and use indefinitely.

also, i think the fear effect from the description and the actual effect don't match. it's supposed to be a trump-all fear, that you can't make yourself immune to, and it's not that.

everything is different now and this item simply screams "reviseee meeeeee"

Danacm

@bob_veng yes its not something for sod. But i think its good for plain bgee and against sarevok, but needs and opcode to not rechargable. And lost between sod and bgee.
I just go through sod with a blackguard and easily no reload it with 50 charge of insta heal.
But i dont nerf it in bgee just not allow to sod.

alceryes

Stupifier was stupid powerful. Even now it's still the second go-to weapon for all my clerics. Given the amount of times you swing melee weapons you'll still see it hit regularly.

yksimalt

Admit it! You are all part of the conspiracy!

/A.

OrlonKronsteen

In my experience the original Stupifier looked overpowered on paper, but it never played that way in my games because I always gave it to a cleric and with their low, BG1 thacos they were weak in melee throughout the whole game. It actually seemed balanced when Viconia or Branwen were using it, with foes only rarely getting stunned. Now I think I've only stunned opponents 2 or 3 times since 2.0. I can imagine the 25% stun could get pretty crazy with a fighter, though.

JumboWheat01

I've used it on Minsc before, putting those points in Dual Wielding to use, and it was a glorious thing. Stunning everywhere, what with the Warrior THAC0 and Minsc's ungodly strength boosting it further.

JDow

I use the Mac version of BG:EE. As they haven't done the last update for it (poor) I still get the 25% stun (yay!)

PK2748

Yeah when I use Minsc it is dual wielding the Stupifier and the Dagger of Venom. Two handed swords are not competitive even after the addition of a saving throw

sarevok57

I use to use the stupifier to kill drizzt at level 1, cant do that any more, at least drizzt is still easily killable at level one though

alceryes

OrlonKronsteen said:

In my experience the original Stupifier looked overpowered on paper, but it never played that way in my games because I always gave it to a cleric and with their low, BG1 thacos they were weak in melee throughout the whole game. It actually seemed balanced when Viconia or Branwen were using it, with foes only rarely getting stunned. Now I think I've only stunned opponents 2 or 3 times since 2.0. I can imagine the 25% stun could get pretty crazy with a fighter, though.

Minsc - Magic is impressive but now Minsc and Stupifier lead. Stuns for everyone!

...it really was like that for any fighter type with Stupifier. Even with the harder mercenary encounters you could sometimes stun two baddies before they got their first spells/attacks off. Whoever was left in the group, that is.

Arthas

I don't understand the deal with Durlag's goblet. I never used it. Is it a good item?

smeagolheart

Arthas said:

I don't understand the deal with Durlag's goblet. I never used it. Is it a good item?

to my understanding it's great if your character can't be feared - and a few classes are immune.

sarevok57

Arthas said:

I don't understand the deal with Durlag's goblet. I never used it. Is it a good item?

durlag's goblet fully heals your character, but for the next 12 hours if you see an enemy you will be fear strickin'

quite the coincidence that there is an item that makes you immune to fear nearby eh?

Arthas

which item that prevents fear are you talking about? That's gonna be useful for my no-reload runs

Aerakar

This is a helmet in the same area of Durlag's Tower where Durlag's goblet is located. The helm prevents the fear effect of the goblet from occurring as long as the helmet is worn.

CrevsDaak

PK2748 said:

It shouldn't be the most powerful weapon you use for the entire first game.

I have to tell you it was. I solo killed the Demon Knight in Durlag's Tower just by hitting him with that thing as a Cleric. If you were in a 1vs1 fight, it definitely was the most powerful weapon in the game since it completely disabled the enemy on it's own. Imagine that, the only other Stun with no save is Power Word: Stun, which you can't even use in BG1, and you basically have a THAC0-based, 25% chance Power Word: Stun from level 1, that Magic Resist doesn't protect you from and barely any creatures are immune to. IMO it was the best weapon for Cleric solo runs in BG1, and maces is never wasted since Maces in BG2 are super good for Clerics.

Also, Durlag's Goblet isn't as broken as Greater Restoration used to be in vanilla ToB. ALL of your party fully healed, almost no casting time and has unlimited range. Oh, and the Rod of Resurrection, another unlimited range heal usable by almost anyone that fully heals your allies, but not party wide (it's basically an instant Heal with unlimited range, really).

Oh and about SoD start... I think it's a bit dumb since you have all the items you've hoarded in BG1. It's not fun when you can just use Wands of Fire with 50 charges on every fight, nor to expect the player to do that or something similar to that (it'll be like Ascension Illasera if they change it tho: you can't start a standalone game anymore since it's too hard to get past that).

yksimalt

Come now, it is not the weapon itself that in the end is the issue.

It is how you choose to use it in your game.

I'd like to see a brave enough (foolish enough) player choose to hit Durlag's Tower at level 1 in a no-reload run, just because the Stupifier stunned at 25%.

The weapon is a fun weapon for many. If your play-style makes it too powerful, the use it differently, or not at all.

The thread was written in a sense of good humour, and it is still a pity Stupifier got nerfed, for us who used it the way we did.

/A.

Foxter

I also like the old stupefier version. In fact I never upgraded over the 1.3 patch.

It was a weapon that gave you a fighting chance against the Demon Knight, after all he had Power Word Stun+Fireball at once and you have no save for that. I would say it was fair.