Fireseed + poison
Loldrup
Member Posts: 291
I read somewhere that one can use the druid spell Fireseed in combination with poison, to great effect.
I have a fighter lvl9 -> druid lvl 11, but I'm not sure how to do this trick? Should I use the *spell* named 'Poison', somehow?
Or does it require some illegal assassin -> druid dual class combo?
I have a fighter lvl9 -> druid lvl 11, but I'm not sure how to do this trick? Should I use the *spell* named 'Poison', somehow?
Or does it require some illegal assassin -> druid dual class combo?
2
Comments
This works with all on-hit effects. This includes:
Poison Weapon (from Assassin or Blackguard)
Wizard Slayer spell failure
Power Attack (the warrior HLA)
Smite (the warrior HLA)
The deal with Fire Seeds is that any character can use them, even a Kensai that can't use missile weapons normally. They're not limited to the druid that creates them.
To apply poison with Fire Seeds, you just need a druid to create the Fire Seeds, hand them over to an Assassin or Blackguard, have the Assassin or Blackguard activate Poison Weapon, and then throw the Fire Seeds at whoever you want. If the target is immune to +6 weapons (either from Protection from Magical Weapons or SCS Absolute Immunity), or if you miss the target, the attack will fail. But if it's successful, both the initial target and everyone nearby will get hit by all on-hit effects the attacker is using.
Fire Seeds have poor THAC0 and don't benefit from proficiency bonuses, so their base APR (attacks per round) is just 1, but Fire Seeds let you apply on-hit effects even against stuff like liches with Protection from Magical Weapons, who normally would resist any weapon, by throwing a Fire Seed at a critter right next to the lich. A lich should be immune to Poison Weapon, but Power Attack and Smite will stun a lich and a Wizard Slayer will inflict spell failure on a lich if you catch the lich in the area of effect of a Fire Seed.
The Fireseeds are intended as a weapon that can be passed to an other char, that hits as AoE, no cheese in doing it.
As there is no cheese in applying an effect like poison weapon or power attack to a weapon, even if it is created magically, like MMM or Fireseeds.
The pratice to hit a not immune, or with low save, enemy, with something that must target someone but works somehow as AoE is also legit and not cheesy, is also often used with the insect spell.
Cheesy imply some kind of exploit, being smart and able to think outside of the box is not expoliting.
The fact that they have a roll to hit, the same one of the other weapons, and not a saving throw, proves it.
The fact that the developers created PW as an effect that can be applied to every weapon is also something beyond our agreement or disagreement.
Let's forget for a moment the word cheese, that can mean everything and its opposite.
My point was that using poisoned fire seeds is using a combination of features of the game, as they are created by the developers, is different from using the clerical strenght or MR spell to lower whith no possible save enemy'a stats. That is using a feature of the game for what is not inteded by the developers, is an exploit.
Poison weapon skill coats the weapon with a poison, thus injecting the thing with a wound. With fire seed the mini eplosions become poisonous explosions. Which makes little sense in my mind.
But it sure is tons of fun to use in the game!
You are suggesting that the developers were aware that fire seeds applied weapon effects in an area effect and were okay with it.
Whereas to me it seems more likely that they were unaware that fire seeds could be used in this way and that if they had known they would have prevented it.
Now, in the absence of a developer coming and posting, neither of us known which view is correct. Which makes it at least questionable whether it's an exploit or not.
(though I would of course never judge anyone who does, to each their own)
Plus, I've yet to hear any developer complain about cheese or say that there are some things we shouldn't do. They don't even seem to care.
I wouldn't call the Fire Seed trick "cheese" because "cheese" implies it's somehow wrong or bad. I would call it an exploit since it's unintentional, and I'd call it silly because it makes no conceptual sense (for one thing, the fire would ostensibly burn away the poison).
I prefer the term "trick" because it's value-neutral.
Imo no DM should allow to poison any not slashing or piercing weapon, if we want to use that argument.
Let's use it every time it apply or ignore it, use it only for some weapons is not fair.
What I am suggesting is that the developers was perfectly aware that fire seeds was a weapon (a weapon created by a spell that share the name, but different from the spell that creates it). The fact that uses the same to hit roll of the other weapons and not the sawing throw used by the spells is a good clue of the developer's intention about, they where perfectly aware.
I am also suggesting that they implemented PW as working with any weapon, and this was intended, as it apply to any magically created weapon, MMM, Energy Blades, Spiritual Hammer, weapons of shapeshifted forms and so on.
I am not suggesting that the developers did think specifically to the combination fire seeds + poison weapon, I can not read in their minds, but I am showing how the fact that fire seeds are a weapon and the fact that poison weapon can be used with ANY weapon are two intended features of the game.
That is a good point imho.
It is because a certain degree of exploit is certainly used. What I can say is only that similar exploits where also allowed by the developers. To use insect plague on a low level enemy to bypass the good ST of the boss, to use other AoE bullets, like Arrows of Detonation, to apply effects like poison, smite, Assassination and power attack to an AoE instead of a single target are only some of the possible examples.
So you are correct and I was wrong, is an exploit. But still is one of the many exploits that use AoE of a weapon to work, that are too many, and some of them known from the early times, to think that this one, and only this, is something that has not to be implemented as possible, and was never nerfed only because the developers was not aware. Imo is one of a family of exploits that was intended as possible by the developers, as almost no other member of that family was never nerfed or prevented, both at the creation of the game and later.
But still is an exploit, telling that is not so I was wrong.
EDIT: About RP see my answer to lunar, about using an exploit to bypass something insect plague, Jan's only ammunition, and the other examples I gave answering to karnor00, show that is a normal behavior of this game, one of the MANY exploits that allow to do something that at a first sight seems to be impossible.
Is perfectly fine that a player choose to don't use this of other of those exploits, but some of them are widely used by a large part of the community of players, I don't see a reason to put only this in a cathegory of his own.
But, as I am less worried about how others judge my own play style than about seeing people judgmental about other people's style in general I really appreciated it.
First of all I try to never see a magic battle as raw power vs raw power. For me the equation lev20 mage > lev 15 mage >lev 10 mage is not true, is only half of the truth, the less important one.
For me the key is knowledge, not level or raw power. Knowledge of using the right spells in the right situations, and knowledge to use some spells in not conventional ways in certain situations.
An early SoA mage can destroy a Planetar, without using any cheese or exploit, if the player has a real knowledge of the spell system, a mage with higher level can be destroied by the same Planetar, while he is trying to cheese him, if the mage/player lacks in knowledge.
And in RL we see how often knowledge allow "impossible" things. Every one must pay taxes, but the knowledge that a good lawyer has can help you in paying less than at first sight seems you are supposed to pay. Or, on a more material situation, certain chemical reactions are impossible or need a great amount of energy to happen, simply adding a cathalist make them possible/less energy consuming.
And I like to RP magic in a way that make possible to obtain "impossible" things, like bypassing really good ST or immunities, for that reasons, the knowledge becomes even more prevailing over the raw power and the complexity of RL is better approximated.
Only in this way the magic system of a CRPG can be somehow at a level that satisfy my immagination.
Not my need of power, for that a F/M or F->M is more than enough, no need for tricks, that I appreciate so much if there is elegance, creativity, research in them. But I appreciate them for those reasons, never see them as easy recipes to trivialize battles.