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Forced party member

Well i just created the forum account to say im totally dissapointed with the beginning of Siege of Dragonspear. Im forced to play with Safana in that starting dungeon ( even thought i know what happens afterwards). I hope in future patched we are able to change this, that character does not fit on the legal/good alignment of my party and i hate the idea to be forced to have a chaotic character among my legal party, this is a role-playing game, at the most before starting let us pick from a pool of pre-made characters, companions or let us make one ourselves.
Rant over. thanks! (im kicking her asap).

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Comments

  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,255
    edited October 2016
    ...just kick her out? You're saddled with her for all of one dungeon at maximum, stop making a big deal out of it. Is Imoen being forced on you for both BG1 and 2 as much of a game ruining experience for you?

    ThacoBellsemiticgoddess
  • Sir_DahakaSir_Dahaka Member Posts: 23
    RP is important in these things, if yo uare forced with an evil on a good party its bad. besides now i dont have a thief...

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited October 2016
    She isn't evil.

    Sides, how come you aren't importing a character (with party) from BG1?

    Post edited by Fardragon on
  • artificial_sunlightartificial_sunlight Member Posts: 601
    Just kick het out, you can do without a thief.

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,633
    chaotic npcs are not evil. i had neera throughout the whole series and she is cn as well and she is in no ways evil. and most good parties tend to be a mix of good and neutral.

  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636

    RP is important in these things, if yo uare forced with an evil on a good party its bad. besides now i dont have a thief...

    She's chaotic neutral. And Glint is a thing.

    ThacoBell
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 21,990
    @Sir_Dahaka

    You can start SoD with either 1) a party you completed BGEE with, 2) or with a new character.

    In the first case you most probably had a party thief (there're a lot of thieves among BG1 NPCs) or were a thief as the main character. So in many situations you won't need Safana. If your party thief for BG1 was Imoen, then yes, she can't stay in your party in the opening dungeon of SoD and explains why. Safana's role here is to substitute Imoen in such case, so that you have a thief for this dungeon. After the dungeon you will have a choice between Safana and Glint for a thief if your main character is not a thief.

    In the second case you should take into account SoD comes with a new feature - "Create Party", so you can create not one, but several characters from the start. One of them can be a thief, which lets you to get anything you wish - your main character can be not a thief but in the same time you can have a fully developed thief at your side with the kit (or multiclass) you want.

    As for Safana, she's neutral, and fits any party, good, neutral or evil.

    ThacoBellrapsam2003semiticgoddessmf2112
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 1,067
    When the OP talks about wanting a legal/good party, perhaps he means lawful good? If so, he may not like the idea of chaotic party members.

    I haven't seen this exact issue raised before but there have been others who've expressed a desire to swap out party members for other BG1 NPCs, usually because they don't like the class composition of their initial party. My initial party worked fine but I don't think it would be unreasonable to let Imoen "summon" BG1 NPCs if you speak to her about it. Throne of Bhaal already includes a similar functionality for people who don't like their initial party and perhaps something similar could be added to SoD, though you'd need a plausible in-game explanation for it. ("Ajantis? Oh yeah, I remember where we left him, let me pass along your request to one of our mages and we'll have him teleported here in no time!")

    Sir_Dahaka
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,633

    RP is important in these things, if yo uare forced with an evil on a good party its bad. besides now i dont have a thief...

    She's chaotic neutral. And Glint is a thing.

    RP is important in these things, if yo uare forced with an evil on a good party its bad. besides now i dont have a thief...

    She's chaotic neutral. And Glint is a thing.
    glint does not have thief skills.

  • DaevelonDaevelon Member Posts: 600


    glint does not have thief skills.

    ?
    Yes he does

    ThacoBellsemiticgoddess
  • Sir_DahakaSir_Dahaka Member Posts: 23
    I stand corrected shes chaotic neutral, as jsaving pointed out, is about having a chaotic party member forced when your party consists of lawful characters (or maybe netrual good), its all about RP, you "cant" have a chaotic member in a lawful party. Even if it is for a dungeon, an hour or a month, its not right from that point of view. And im aware of the party creation options but as soon as you finish BG1 EE, you get taken to the siege of dragonspear right after the sarevok's cutscene.
    what happens between that fight and that dungeon tthat makes someone new join in? and worse what makes a lawful character go with a chaotic one? or a chaotic one go with a lawful? or a full neutral with either end of the spectrum? its not logical from an RP point of view.

  • BelfaldurnikBelfaldurnik Member Posts: 212

    its all about RP, you "cant" have a chaotic member in a lawful party.

    There is no party alignment, just alignment of individual characters. And alignment isn't fixed forever. Means, characters may cooperate (even if they disagree from time to time) and in some cases shift alignment as a result. Examples are Anomen/Sir Anomen, Viconia and Sarevok.

    Jaheira is neutral, btw, and forced as a pair with Khalid who is good aligned.

    what happens between that fight and that dungeon tthat makes someone new join in?

    Story companions may be offered forcefully in the same way BG2 starts with Jaheira, Minsc and Imoen again even if you may have ended BG1 with a completely different party. You are free to not let join such characters or remove them from your party.

    ThacoBellGirewan
  • Sir_DahakaSir_Dahaka Member Posts: 23
    Well in BG2 you can just leave them in the cells at the prison. And the point of rolplaying is to have those things in mind when forming a party. Otherwise why even bother with choosing alignments? on this point alignments do matter for some items (i dont remember if certain quests or npc relations) like the archmage robes, or certain wepons in ToB.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,140
    edited October 2016
    Daevelon said:


    glint does not have thief skills.

    ?
    Yes he does
    Absolutely he does, I used him as my only thief the first time I played SOD.
    *EDIT*
    On the alignment issue, pretty sure there are not enough lawful good characters to make a full party in the first place. And if alignment is that big a deal, how did you have a full party to begin with? There is no lawful good thief. If you can't rp chaotic working together temporarily, then why can you rp neutral for a long term?

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,633
    werid when i was playing he did not give me any thief stuff only cleric. must have glitched out for me.

  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636

    glint does not have thief skills.

    Ermmm...what? He's a cleric/thief.

    semiticgoddess
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    It's worth noting that "Thief" is a very unusual career choice for a person of the Lawful Good persuasion. There are no LG (or LN) thief companions in any of the BG games, and in some D&D games it is actually forbidden.

    Most stories that feature parties of adventurers feature some conflict in morality within the group. In Star Wars a LG party recruits a CN rogue (with faithful LG sidekick) to take them to their destination. In The Hobbit the NG thief steels from his LN party.

    Having said that, I have to say that I really don't like Safina, irrespective of her alignment.

    If the OP doesn't like companions with desperate alignments being forced upon them, I need to warn them to avoid NWN2 at all costs!

    As a side point, the alignments of your companions in SCL are kept hidden from the player. A good thing?

    semiticgoddessSir_Dahaka
  • sibakruomsibakruom Member Posts: 28

    werid when i was playing he did not give me any thief stuff only cleric. must have glitched out for me.

    Is it possible you simply missed them? Glint has too many skills for his quickbar slots, so his thieving skills are located in the "special abilities" menu at the right end of the quickbar.

    JuliusBorisovThacoBellBelgarathMTH
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 881
    edited October 2016
    @Sir_Dahaka You had Safana because you finished BG1 with Imoen who is unavailable for the starting dungeon. Safana is the only replacement Thief to be neutral and therefore can fit into most parties (Coran and Alora are good, Montaron and Tiax evil). One might argue that a party with Imoen is likely to lean towards Good, making Alora or Coran a better choice but there are unconventional party lineups out there the devs had to think about.

    Safana is a very unlikeable character though, so it can be annoying to take her but it's just one dungeon.

    Edit: I forgot about Skie, who is also Neutral.
    Fardragon said:

    If the OP doesn't like companions with desperate alignments being forced upon them, I need to warn them to avoid NWN2 at all costs!

    The greatest flaw of that game is that you can't murder Qara on the spot.

    Post edited by Kurona on
    Fardragonmegamike15JuliusBorisovThacoBell
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,633
    sibakruom said:

    werid when i was playing he did not give me any thief stuff only cleric. must have glitched out for me.

    Is it possible you simply missed them? Glint has too many skills for his quickbar slots, so his thieving skills are located in the "special abilities" menu at the right end of the quickbar.
    this may have been the case.

  • jinxed75jinxed75 Member Posts: 157

    I stand corrected shes chaotic neutral, as jsaving pointed out, is about having a chaotic party member forced when your party consists of lawful characters (or maybe netrual good), its all about RP, you "cant" have a chaotic member in a lawful party. Even if it is for a dungeon, an hour or a month, its not right from that point of view. And im aware of the party creation options but as soon as you finish BG1 EE, you get taken to the siege of dragonspear right after the sarevok's cutscene.
    what happens between that fight and that dungeon tthat makes someone new join in? and worse what makes a lawful character go with a chaotic one? or a chaotic one go with a lawful? or a full neutral with either end of the spectrum? its not logical from an RP point of view.

    If your understanding of what makes sense RP-wise is that narrowminded, then better don't use a Thief at all. Thieving doesn't mesh with the mindset of stonewall LG characters as you picture them.

    sibakruom said:

    werid when i was playing he did not give me any thief stuff only cleric. must have glitched out for me.

    Is it possible you simply missed them? Glint has too many skills for his quickbar slots, so his thieving skills are located in the "special abilities" menu at the right end of the quickbar.
    this may have been the case.
    This or you disabled his thief skills by putting him into unsuitable armor

    ThacoBell
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited October 2016
    jinxed75 said:

    If your understanding of what makes sense RP-wise is that narrowminded, then better don't use a Thief at all. Thieving doesn't mesh with the mindset of stonewall LG characters as you picture them.

    I honestly really hope that people don't view Lawful Good as this. Please read this if you do: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupid. And then read the "Book of Exalted Deeds" handbook, p. 5-12: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-BT_PSB49zNWEJnU3h5bU15eTA/view?usp=sharing. Although BoED is a 3.5E resource, it explains how Lawful Good is not the stupid "Obey the law or die" trope that ruins RP, kills friendships, and screws over your party.

    And read this if you think chaotic evil is only like Xzar: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StupidEvil. Then, go read "Book of Vile Darkness", p. 5-19: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-BT_PSB49zNM2lmdVI3SjJsTXM/view?usp=sharing. As with BoED, also a 3.5E resource. However, it explains that evil isn't just being a psychotic killer who is solely interested in power for power's sake. Also, examine the concept of pragmatic villiany: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PragmaticVillainy.

    I apologize for the rant, but the point is that D&D alignment are NOT meant to be Black and White. The Paladin doesn't need to kill everyone who is of "an evil race", and the "Good Party" doesn't need to be a bunch of judgmental jerks. D&D alignment is a guideline, not a prescription.

    gmazcaSir_DahakaThacoBellBelgarathMTH
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    The Bounty Hunter kit would actually fit in very well with a Lawful Good alignment, since it's all about hunting down criminals.

    KuronaThacoBellPapa_Lou
  • Sir_DahakaSir_Dahaka Member Posts: 23
    edited October 2016

    jinxed75 said:

    If your understanding of what makes sense RP-wise is that narrowminded, then better don't use a Thief at all. Thieving doesn't mesh with the mindset of stonewall LG characters as you picture them.

    I honestly really hope that people don't view Lawful Good as this. Please read this if you do: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupid. And then read the "Book of Exalted Deeds" handbook, p. 5-12: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-BT_PSB49zNWEJnU3h5bU15eTA/view?usp=sharing. Although BoED is a 3.5E resource, it explains how Lawful Good is not the stupid "Obey the law or die" trope that ruins RP, kills friendships, and screws over your party.

    And read this if you think chaotic evil is only like Xzar: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StupidEvil. Then, go read "Book of Vile Darkness", p. 5-19: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-BT_PSB49zNM2lmdVI3SjJsTXM/view?usp=sharing. As with BoED, also a 3.5E resource. However, it explains that evil isn't just being a psychotic killer who is solely interested in power for power's sake. Also, examine the concept of pragmatic villiany: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PragmaticVillainy.

    I apologize for the rant, but the point is that D&D alignment are NOT meant to be Black and White. The Paladin doesn't need to kill everyone who is of "an evil race", and the "Good Party" doesn't need to be a bunch of judgmental jerks. D&D alignment is a guideline, not a prescription.
    i like your explanations, when i get a few moments ill read these links.

    There are different types of views and you run the game so many times you can have different wishes for each play.
    Like for me when first played my party in the base game goes: main character, imoen, montaron, xzar, jaheira and khalid (untill the last 4 fight) and thats when you dont know anything, then you move (on nice characters) and leave montaron and xzar and get minsc and dynaheir, you get the "good" party.
    Then you start with different roles, like going solo, different random parties, go around doing bad deeds, aligning with Edwin.
    So now this run i wanted to run lawful good or neutral good (but there are enogh lawful good to form a party) then again i had imoen in my party, there was a flaw there i get it.

    Its difficult to point it out what i wanted to express, what makes Skie so friendly with the PC at the ducal palace and afterwards? In my game i never contacted her more than to see who she was and that was it (as she has NO involvement in the main story unless recruited), as far as i know you needed some other male character, a bard, to kidnap her. Now when it came to safana. What makes the pc pick her over any other character? why a thief? why she replaces imoen? and why not pick viconia, brawen or tiax to replace imoen? There are inconsistencies, i move past alignments (as it was pointed out to be stupid). Why does the band pick safana over anybody else? I had no contact with her prior to that dungeon and then when you start (with no choice) SoD you get banded togheter with no explanation, if at least there was some explanation, like a short cutscene where the dukes hire her as some sort of royal agent and since imoen is out of the picture they make her join you like Corwen (not sure if its her name) id be sattisfied.

    On a side note: First time in my life im able to have a discussion on something like this with anybody, loving it! Thank you everyone for giving me and anybody who reads this post, your insight on the topic!

    ThacoBellDJKajuru
  • gmazcagmazca Member Posts: 60
    edited October 2016
    I haven't played SoD yet, but I am intending to very soon. Like @Sir_Dahaka stated, it seems like the problem is the lack of explanation for why Safana joins the party. A Lawful Good hero can team up with a Chaotic Evil villain if their temporary goals align. That is not to say that a Lawful Good hero would abide acts of evil during a temporary alliance, I just mean such an alliance is possible in the short term. And better yet, the Lawful Good hero would attempt to guide the evil villain to redemption during their alliance. In Baldur's Gate, alignments of characters won't change (magical helmets excluded), but for RP purposes it is an interesting way to look at the situation.

    I was reading a series called the Dresden Files, and a Holy Knight teamed up with a Fallen Angel on a temporary basis. Why would the Holy Knight do this? Because it was the only way to save the soul of a friend in need. He did not abide the Fallen Angel's evil inclinations, and spoke out again them often enough. But the temporary alliance was necessary to promote good. If you have a problem with Safana on an alignment basis, try looking at it from this perspective.

    Sir_Dahaka
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 1,067
    I wonder if the OP is perhaps an old-school gamer who is most familiar with 1st edition. Because back then, LG was much closer to "Lawful Stupid" than it is today. For example paladins were considered to be the living embodiments of lawful goodness back then and, as living embodiments of LG, had to obey the following:

    "He may participate in an adventure in which he is working with non-evil neutrals only if it is limited to a single expedition, and only if it will further a lawful good cause."

    So before 3rd edition, someone who truly lived lawful goodness wouldn't be allowed to adventure with a chaotic evil character under any circumstances, even the hypothetical "uniting to defeat a greater threat" scenario mentioned previously in this thread. In fact they couldn't even let a relatively harmless character like Safana into their party unless it were short-term AND advanced a good cause AND advanced a lawful cause. Fighting Asmodeus? Sorry, Safana, you can't join because he's lawful. Fighting Irenicus? Sorry, Safana, you can't join because Shadows of Amn has more than one chapter in it. It may be that the OP is coming from this point of view, so to him, it might matter a lot that Safana not be allowed into his party.

    Sir_Dahaka
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited October 2016

    Now when it came to safana. What makes the pc pick her over any other character? why a thief? why she replaces imoen? and why not pick viconia, brawen or tiax to replace imoen? There are inconsistencies, i move past alignments (as it was pointed out to be stupid). Why does the band pick safana over anybody else? I had no contact with her prior to that dungeon and then when you start (with no choice) SoD you get banded togheter with no explanation, if at least there was some explanation, like a short cutscene where the dukes hire her as some sort of royal agent and since imoen is out of the picture they make her join you like Corwen (not sure if its her name) id be sattisfied.

    The reason Safana was picked was 1) she's a pure thief (like Imoen in BG1), 2) they wanted to expand on Safana as a character, & 3) because Imoen was training to become a mage.
    jsaving said:

    So before 3rd edition, someone who truly lived lawful goodness wouldn't be allowed to adventure with a chaotic evil character under any circumstances, even the hypothetical "uniting to defeat a greater threat" scenario mentioned previously in this thread.

    I would argue that this was only a 1st edition thing. In AD&D2, your DM had the freedom to allow this scenario. By 3E, the publishers realized how f***ing stupid the idea of an evil person never teaming up with "the good guys" was, because that was never black and white IRL, so to speak.

    KuronaSir_Dahaka
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 881
    Remember first edition Cavaliers? They would charge enemies on sight like crazed berserkers. With priority given to dragons and demons. Lol.

  • jinxed75jinxed75 Member Posts: 157

    The Bounty Hunter kit would actually fit in very well with a Lawful Good alignment, since it's all about hunting down criminals.

    Bounty hunting is about hunting bounties, whether they were called out by some good forces or a demon who wants a goody two shoes dead.

    @rapsam2003 *I* didn't imply Thieves couldn't be in a party with a LG character in general, merely with LG characters like the OP outlined them.

  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    jinxed75 said:

    @rapsam2003 *I* didn't imply Thieves couldn't be in a party with a LG character in general, merely with LG characters like the OP outlined them.

    I actually was more using your words as a jumpoff point to speak to @Sir_Dahaka. I didn't think you implied that. Apologies for any confusion.

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