[SPOILERS] Is it possible at all to conquer Ust Natha with SCS?
Alonso
Member Posts: 806
I've tried to conquer the drow city a few times and it looks like there's no way you can do it. The enemies are really tough (ACs around -8, THAC0s around -2 and magic resistance around 75-95%), but that's not the main problem, the main problem is that they just keep coming and coming and the game tends to crash eventually during the battle. So I'd like to give it a go if it's possible at all, but if they just keep spawning forever there's not much point.
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Warning: this component is not intended to make the conquest of the drow city somewhat more interesting and challenging: it is meant to make it virtually impossible. It's probably possible to beat the drow and conquer Ust Natha without exploits, but it will be extremely difficult and it's not the intended playstyle (i.e., if you manage to do it, don't complain to me that it's too difficult or time-consuming!) The sane thing to do is to get out as soon as you can; even that will probably be a bit trickier than usual.
I've never done it, mainly because I don't care for the whole Underdark section and try to get out of it asap but apparently there is a limit on how many enemy reinforcements appear. I'm guessing the reason the game crashes for you is because you can't kill the reinforcements faster than they spawn and eventually the game can't handle all the spawns and AI scripts running at once.
Never managed to beat this fight without a custom party, big bravo to everyone who did it with NPCs (iirc @JuliusBorisov succeeded?)
An other example is switching to LoB, parties that in vanilla or SCS where so good as could have a dmg output so high that defense was only marginally important soon become inadequate. They was not strong ones, they was only optimized to abuse of a weakness of the enemy, who could not rise enough defense to survive enough. With the enhanced HP and thac0 that LoB give everithing change and the strategy of pointing all on offense show its limits, that before was not evident.
I am convinced that the real strength of a party has to be inherent, not depending on external conditions. A strong party should be able to fight in LoB, in the Eclipse battle, conquer the SCS drow city without or with minimal optimization. If they can do it also without using pre buffing, when something happens without a clear clue that it will happen (entering a vampire or mind flyer nest knowing what it is is different) and relying only a minimum on metagame than is a REALLY STRONG party.
Each party that is not able to do some of those things is only well optimized for certain conditions, is not a strong party.
So I suggest @Alonso to try, maybe reloading and going the normal way after it, just to check how his party is really strong or only well optimized. I often use the same party on different runs under different conditions just for that purpose, and in each condition fight many times the same hard battle using different tactics, to test and research about the inherent strength vs the optimization for some pre set conditions.
This, and researching on cheese and exploits, that I often don't use and anyway I don't want to depend on, is the main part of my personal having fun in playing the same old game for more than 15 years.
@Kurona what is the EDE?
But in my plains for the future a full run of IA is included
Given I play No-Reloads, I've never actually tried it. In vanilla spell/item/kit setup, I'd vote it's possible with a decent enough party - 2x sorcerer, berseker/cleric dual, barbarian/archer. The trick is to kill them quickly, before they overpopulate the area.
Some tips that can (or can not, you have to test it in EE) be helpful.
The dead bodies of the enemies contribute to the number of elements that make the game slow down. But only the enemies and corpses that are present on the screen, not the ones that are present in the area, cause the problem. Moving to a different part of the area when the one where you are fighting is filled with corpses should help. Also choosing a lesser resolution or cutting the area showed in the screen with zoom should help in decreasing the number of enemies that are active on the screen and contribute to game lag.
Probably the total number of enemies present in the area is also contributing, but the fact that enemies not present on the screen have no animations and interactions with the party should be enough to help to solve the problem. Also exiting the main area to enter some inner ones, like the tavern, the temple or one of the houses should help, if the mod don't prevent it.
I hope that those few tips can help if the party is not optimized to kill a large number of ever spawning enemies very fast.
If I got it right the answer is: Yes, it's possible, but not with my party. My whole party is chosen for roleplaying value, no power optimizing: Blade, Minsc, Keldorn, Jan, Nalia, Aerie. They are about level 15. You're saying that Wish (level 9) is a must. The biggest magic I have is a single level 7 spell (Nalia). Anybody cruel enough to still encourage me to try with this party or it just doesn't make any sense at all?
I attach a save of that part in case you want to have a look.
The party imo is really strong, even if a little under leveled for my standards, my actual 5 people one in chap3 has casters that can cast lev8, even if I did not use write/erase.
You have 5 good damage dealers, maybe using things that some people regard as cheese, like a mislead for a backstab spamming with Jan, the Blade with devensive spins and few buffs can tank for a long time, and with the offensive one deal good damage with 2 APR weapons (the throwing dagger can be the main hand one if you don't have both Belm and Kundane), Aerie with the right buffs and a good STR enhancing item can dual weld improved hasted with 4 APR, STR 23-25 and maxed damage roll, or use the troll form of the cloack + buffs in a sequencer for even better APR, Minsc and Keldorn with few potions can become much more tanky and are natural good damage dealers.
With a fully charged summoning wand, a resurrection one and eventually few others (you have 4 chars that can use wands, and they take less time than spells and have 50-100 charges) and the right tactic imo is doable. Not that my opinion is relevant, as I never fought that battle, but the trying is worth, is funny and give XP, the important one, the player's one
Now I am not at home and not even in town, so I can not try, but I will later so can you please post also your weidu log, so I can set up the same mods that you use?
If 1 or 2 shamans constantly manages to summon those powerful creatures by dancing, I think that would be a good way to keep most of the waves at bay. I haven't seen this army in action and I don't know what you have to deal with. I don't know what immunities spirital creatures have. Would be a real shame if they would be washed away by a single death spell.
For the sorcerers, I would just keep spamming project image, and have the image cast wizard eye. Let the images do their thing: Summon planetars, spam AoE (Even with 95% mr they are bound to fail sometimes) spells. Both damaging and disabling spells. Morrakins sword would probably do the trick as well. Just through as much as you can with them, wish rest, repeat.
So maybe is still possible, maybe with a couple of exits from the Drow area to rest in the Durgar tavern, reload the wands and have charged the x/day charge items.
The staff that can charm almost anything that they should have imo is a crucial item, to have a demon as ally for free can change the battle outcome. But I did not know about the demons, I was thinking about hordes of Drows...
Not sure about the troll form. She's the one with more useful spells (Defensive Harmony, for instance). Doesn't look like the benefits of a troll weigh out the loss of all those spells. Also, how does she get STR 23-25? She can't drink strength potions... I'm afraid I used up all of those before getting to the underdark. As I said, my party is not especially well prepared for this fight...
Got a question though, can you delay it untill you've cleared Chap6 and Suldanessellar? As in maybe just ignore it and kill Addy to get out and gear up some? Then you could have Crom, 20 str belt, stuff from the improved Mart and a bunch more levels and exp. Apologize for being a little OT, but is Eclipse and EDE really comparable? Never done EDE but I always imagined it was way, way harder than Eclipse. Attacking from Stealth grants -4 THAC0, so it'll be around 40% chance to hit. And the greatest benefit of it isn't the high damage output, it's that he's virtually immortal while doing it as long as his clone doesn't die and he doesn't go up against creatures that naturally can see through invis. Which there are more of in SCS though.
Improved Invisibility will only work for 1 attack. Mislead will re-stealth you untill your clone is destroyed, meaning you can backstab for the whole duration, which is why it's such a delicious cheese. Yes, as in you can't dual-wield ranged weapons, but you can dual-wield *with* ranged weapons. But you need Belm/Kundane/Scarlet or something like that for it to be useful. Buffing Strength is one of the key features of Clerics, and Draw Upon Holy Might is the go-to spell for it. She should be level 12 at least, meaning DUHM gives her +4 STR/DEX/CON, so if you've given her the 21 STR Belt from the Demogorgon altar, she'll hit 25.
Absolutely not, see below... I was thinking about this for a while. I did the maths and they don't look too good. The best weapon Jan has is a dagger +3. Combined with haste and girdle of strength he has THAC0 8, 2 APR, damage 4-7 + 7. With backstabbing the damage becomes 29 per hit on average. Since the average drow AC is about -8, he will be hitting about 25% of the time. That means about 15 damage per round. That won't get me far against hundreds of drows and demons. However, it does sound interesting for other battles. Can you also do it with Improved Invisibility?
@Tenrecc has told almost everything, I add only that IF the throwing dagger used as mlee is allowed to backstab in EE (I did not test it) you can potentially have 4 backstabs/round not hasted, with a x5 multiplier is like 2 GWW/round
Can you dual wield with ranged weapons?
In not EE no, in EE yes, you have to equip the throwing dagger in the main hand and a not throwing weapon, even a +1 APR one in the off hand. When the throwing dagger is set on ranged the other weapon is inactive, but as soon as you set the dagger on mlee the off hand weapon becomes active.
Let's suppose that belm is in the off hand, using the dagger as mlee weapon (right click on it to do it) you get +2 APR, one from the dagger and the other from belm, so 4 APR on a not fighter, that can not improve with level or specialization and have natural 1 APR. 3 of the attacks are with the dagger (that mechanically is a bastard sword, not a dagger, as damage roll) and one with belm.
Not sure about the troll form. She's the one with more useful spells (Defensive Harmony, for instance). Doesn't look like the benefits of a troll weigh out the loss of all those spells. Also, how does she get STR 23-25? She can't drink strength potions...
she is a Cleric, Holy power and she has STR 18.00, fighter thac0 and an HP/level increase, than Rigteous Magic, an increase of STR of one point/3levels, maxed damage roll and other bonus HP, DUHM on top for STR, CON (HP) and DEX (AC and ranged thac0) increased by other 1/3 levels.
the gauntlets that give STR, the arcane spell that give 18.50 or the potion that give 18, that she can use, can also been used as starting points.
There is absolutely no problem to have her at 24-25 STR for a good number of rounds if she invest enough of her divine spell book in those spells, equip her with the FoA and the mace you have got from resciuing the durgar's son and she will be a very good damage dealer, not like a Kensai, but really effective.
I'm afraid I used up all of those before getting to the underdark. As I said, my party is not especially well prepared for this fight...
THAT is the problem, without wands and a chance to rest I suppose that is impossible, a so long fight with some fully charged wands is much more manageable.
When there's 20+ cloud on the floor, as long as the enemy doesn't have 100% magic resistance, they die almost instantly (and you don't care since you are protected against all kind of magic -mainly all dispell + damage from your own cloud).
You just need vecna and power amulet for this (and at least 16 wisdom)
He can hide with SoTM, wait for the 200-250 spawns or how they are and then start the massacre, after he protects himself from energy. In few rounds he should be able to kill everything, Using IA, AoP and RoV the PI can protect himself and cast up to 5 wish in a row in little more than one round
Even with drow MR who can survive that ?
Stinky cheese? Sure it is! Funny? MUWAHWAHH
He could do it at that level if he would have the 2 scrolls from WK, using them and potion of insight from the quick slots of Nalia's PI, and maybe later in the battle Aerie, investing all the lev 7 spells in PI, and hoping for luck. Quite exploiting, but a battle of that level with a party of that level and not optimized, make unfair tactics somehow not avoidable. Outside the having a full stock of completely recharged wands, thing that is far less exploiting.
But if @Alonso don't have the wands I doubt that he has the wish scrolls.
As for the thread subject I don't have this component installed on my ipad2 because if I try it will fry up my meager tablet.