BG:EE is on GOG sale. I'm thinking about picking Siege of Dragonspear, but reviews scare me.
sterner
Member Posts: 3
Greetings. I'm thinking about buying BG:EE and Siege of Dragonspear on GOG, but reviews for the latter are quite disheartening, to say at least. There are 10 pages of 1-star reviews in row. So I got questions:
1) How bad is the bug situation by now? I don't think I can handle Fallout 2 level of bugs like I did when I was teen.
2) Can someone point me in most possible non-spoilerish way to what exactly made "anti-SJW" crowd that mad?
3) How similar it is to original BG games in atmosphere and gameplay? I only played vanilla BG and mostly remember it being cheesy high-fantasy fare with plot which didn't really went anywhere until the very final part of the game. And honestly I liked it as it was, in its shameless DnD charm and endless green fields. But how can you make plot worse than that, really?
1) How bad is the bug situation by now? I don't think I can handle Fallout 2 level of bugs like I did when I was teen.
2) Can someone point me in most possible non-spoilerish way to what exactly made "anti-SJW" crowd that mad?
3) How similar it is to original BG games in atmosphere and gameplay? I only played vanilla BG and mostly remember it being cheesy high-fantasy fare with plot which didn't really went anywhere until the very final part of the game. And honestly I liked it as it was, in its shameless DnD charm and endless green fields. But how can you make plot worse than that, really?
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2) There is a cleric who manages the temple services in your encampment. Her name is Mizhena. If you ask her about her name, she'll tell you she was born as a boy but knew she was really a girl, and she liked the name Mizhena for her true self rather than the boy name she was given at birth. That's it. Nothing else will be said about it in the whole game, and she only tells you that much if you ask. There was also originally a line by Minsc that amounted to a snark at the Gamergate people, that he only said if you clicked on him too many times in a row, but that line has been taken out now. Those two things were enough to goad the (very thin-skinned, imo) Gamergate people into a crapstorm.
3) In my opinion, the atmosphere and gameplay are exactly the same as in all the other installments in the Baldur's Gate series, with perhaps just a slight amount more contemporary flavor to the humor. I think that is to be expected in a game published in 2016. Times are different now, as far as what references you can make that people will "get". The original games were packed with pop culture references for 1998 audiences, and SoD does the same thing for 2016 audiences.
2) There were 3 things in the game that became controversial in SoD: a Minsc selection line (which has been removed from the game with one of the patches), a transgender minor NPC and improved characters of Safana and Jaheira.
3) SoD is very much in the spirit of BG games. I advice to check the official reveiws for SoD.
"Siege of Dragonspear feels like a long-lost (and polished-up) chapter of the original, like it belonged from the start." http://www.pcworld.com/article/3049904/software/baldurs-gate-siege-of-dragonspear-review-a-fitting-end-to-a-legendary-game-17-years-later.html#tk.rss_all
"A few new features and a compelling, well-written, epic plot offer a somewhat modernized take on dialogue and storytelling, but the whole package remains true to the distinctive Baldur’s Gate flavor that has made the original series one of the most beloved in all of gaming." http://www.gamespot.com/reviews/baldurs-gate-siege-of-dragonspear/1900-6416408/
"As a Baldur's Gate adventure, Siege of Dragonspear works well. While it's not entirely tonally consistent with the original series, it does a good job of inserting itself into the middle of the story without feeling like sacrilege... ....Beamdog has proven they can continue the Baldur's Gate story. In doing so, they replicate the antiquated nature of the Baldur's Gate games. " http://www.pcgamer.com/baldurs-gate-siege-of-dragonspear-review/
1) I went through the entire campaign, with mods, and there was only one gamebreaker at the very start of the game (a non-essential cutscene wouldn't start, causing the game to freeze). Smooth sailing otherwise.
2) Contrary to @JuliusBorisov's... shall we say, forgiving mindset, I think you'll find the story to be classic Beamdog in that it's an exercise in frustration: some things they get right (the buildup to the titular Siege, the new NPCs - M'Khiin being a particular standout), some things are just train-wreck level bad writing (the entire last act of the campaign, especially the epilogue), and just a general sense throughout that the devs constantly chose the easiest/laziest path when faced with the possibility of doing more interesting things. Massive plotholes (on the level of "this entire story makes no goddamn sense if you think about it for more than five seconds"), flat characters, bizarre decisions in terms of who gets the spotlight and when and what they're doing...
3) No references to SoD were patched into BG2. If you're hoping for any kind of continuity or connections beyond the appearance of various import items, you're not going to find them.
Now, taking all that into account, what I'll say is: It's not very good, and it's not going to feel like a natural extension of the saga because the story isn't foreshadowed in the first game or followed up in the second. It's not Baldur's Gate.
However, if you go into it with the mindset that it's more like Icewind Dale or Sword Coast Legends - just a random Forgotten Realms adventure - odds are you'll enjoy it on that level. Certainly on a technical level, it's currently a very polished release.
2) They botched the presentation of a transgender npc that appears in every chapter but does not play a role in the main story - not a big deal, just poorly done. Minsc had a rare line mocking Gamer Gate that was unnecessary and ultimately removed. One of the lead writers claimed that Jaheira and Safana were written for BG1 in a way that was insulting to women and that they "improved" them in the new game. Jaheira softens up a little as a result and this is not bad (unfortunately she is not voiced because her voice actor fell off the grid and apparently nobody can do a good approximation of the voice), but Safana's significantly worse for the change, going from playful femme fatale to an unpleasant woman with a chip on her shoulder who has an affair with a second romanceable character (such that two romance paths have your partner cheat on you). Again, not a huge deal, just a shame that they sucked all the fun out of BG1's resident bad girl.
3) The game is linear. Each chapter has its own set of regions, and you can't return to them afterwards. You do not have much influence in how the story goes (at times your own dialogue gets ignored by the people you are talking with). There's a more modern mentality in the expansion that sets it apart from the games it ties together, appealing to the memes and humor of a different decade. With it's release, the EE games were upgraded to version 2.0, which includes a number of interface changes that you either love or you hate, such as a new map, a new journal system, and a graphics upgrade that includes thick black outlines that better define the sprites. A good number of the new features can be turned off and on to taste.
Minor plot related issues. Nothing major, but some folk are purists.
We also have a very limited stable of returning characters: Minsc & Dynaheir, Viconia, Edwin, Jaheira, Khalid, and Safana.
The EE regulars (Neera, Dorn, Rasaad, and Baeloth) return, with Baeloth becoming a regular rather than a bonus character.
There are also four new charcters: Glint, the happy and clever gnome cleric/thief; Corwin, the noble mercenary cop human archer; M'Khiin, a weary and practical old goblin shaman; and Volghiln, a good natured but uncomplicated skald always on the look out for more wine, women, or song.
While they are valid complaints, don't let these nitpicks fool you, though. For all its flaws, SoD is still quite good, filling in the gap between fratricide and rooming with Irenicus. The engine is improved (capable of doing more at a time and looking better while doing it), most of the characters that come back do so stronger than ever (including some nice new portraits), and the four new characters that get added for this adventure are pretty awesome in their own ways. I just really, really hope that Beamdog adds SoD content to BG2EE, such that new characters like M'khiin and Corwin can have their stories concluded.
Final Opinion: If you like Baldur's Gate, you'll probably like this. There are a lot of little details you can pick at, but none of them are big enough to cloud the fact that this is a Baldur's Gate story, and that's saying a lot.
People forget that, unlike BG2, BG1 characters basically had 5 repeating lines and no romance/friendship paths. Once you did the NPC quest, that NPC never cared about you again. We also had really silly things like forcing the player to have Denahir/Minsc paired and Khalid/Jaheira paired OR having your lawful good Paladin murder that "evil priestess" just for existing. (The latter continued in BG2, unfortunately, due to 2E's silly views on alignment.) But, because we have had loads of mods (many of which were considered "necessary" by the community), people forget this.
By comparison, the SOD characters feel much closer to the BG2 characterizations. Go play BG2 again (without mods) if you don't believe me. The only exception is Voghlin, because half his stuff was cut, unfortunately.
Let's take an obvious example from SOD that people keep bringing up as a plothole. The soulknife dagger...which was something that started in BG1. And then, in BG2, what do we never hear of again in the main narrative? That's right, the soulknife dagger. Because BG2 quests and storylines were so well done, no one really cared though. Now, due to the fact that there was a discontinuity between 1 & 2's stories, people blame SOD for trying to partially fix that.
We also never hear of Irenicus (even in passing) before BG2, but he's the main bad guy of 1. Of course, the reason why is because Bioware likely didn't have the story for 2 yet during 1's development. Beamdog gave us a narrative as to why Irenicus actually cared about the Bhaalspawn.
See BG1 NPC quests for the best and brightest bizarre spotlight moments in the entire series!
I love the BG series, but people throw on the nostalgia glasses and forget that most of these issues were/are a result of the original game. It's totally Baldur's Gate and it very much feels like an extension of the game, if you line the events up and realize that SOD was a (mostly) logical expansion of 1 which (mostly) previewed events in 2. As I said before, 1 never alluded to 2, because Bioware didn't even figure there'd be a 2. And it's quite good, but we can agree to disagree on that.
Where I disagree with you is the Soultaker dagger. It finished its storyline in BG1. In BG2, you start robbed blind. Since its arc is complete, however, its loss isn't felt. Just another artifact Irenicus stole from you and pawned off to pay the rent on his lab.
SoD opens up a new arc for the dagger, albeit for a single quest. The problem is that it doesn't resolve the arc, and so its absence in BG2 is now keenly felt when it wasn't before. Now it's just sitting out there as an unresolved plot thread sitting like a splinter in the player's mind. Until it's addressed, it's going to remain a point of frustration to a solid chunk of the audience.
Charming Centeol and talking to her in the original would make her talk about "Jon Icarus". Though the name was later changed to Jon Irenicus she was indeed referring to one and the same person. The journal would even be updated saying that this information seemed useless now, but maybe would come in handy in a "sequel".
There is also Lord Foreshadow who always spoke of Neverwinter and Athkatla. You had no way of knowing at the time, but he was hinting at both NWN and BG2 as is obvious if you pay attention to his dialog carefully.
2) There was some Minsc quote that was supposed to be a reference to something and it is now removed. There is a transgender NPC, interraction with takes less than 5 minutes and you have to pry to that NPC a bit to obtain thati nformation. Some people also didn't like the fact that Jaheira and Safana got some characterization. In general, if you are sensible person, there shouldn't have any problems with actual content.
3) The plot is rather linear, but it does make sense given the situation. There are still optional areas to explore, optional quests to do, there are quests that you can solve in few ways. Main story isn't bad, but in my opinion the writing suffers at times. That being said, you still get to met some interesting characters, fight inteeresting battles, loot some treasures and you can find and learn some things connecting BG1 to BG2.
To get to that end-point, Andrew Foley and Amber Scott decided to take Skie Silvershield, statistically the least-recruited character in the entire game (on account of being available dead-last), and craft a story about how you're framed for her murder. So far, so good. The only reason the Soultaker Dagger even comes up is because they couldn't think of any other way to prevent Skie from being resurrected - a plot point that might not have even come up in the first place, except they went out of their way to bring back Skie's father at the very start of the game for no other reason than plot convenience, because who else would even care about Skie in the first place.
The reason it's a point of frustration isn't just because it's unresolved; it's literally a series of plotholes the writers dug and then threw themselves into at every opportunity.
@sterner As you see, there are different official and users' reviews of SoD, so you'd probably decide yourself. When there are many heated arguments the best way is to try yourself. All people are different and like/don't like different things. It's a standard situation, both in real life and in games. Especially if you don't want to learn spoilerific content.
Your questions have already been answered but to answer the question you did not ask: The expansion is very much worth it. There has been a pretty massive price drop and now it costs way less than a dinner. And you will probably enjoy this more than a dinner.
2) A woman writing instead of ironing and cooking dinner. (Without the facetiousness, SoD just happened to be a convinent target for anger against liberal values among game developers. Of course, the truth is liberal values are a consequence of being well educated, and you need to be well educated in order to be a game developer).
3) It's a bit more sophisticated, without a lot of the dumb jokes that were in the original. If you like the dumb jokes I suggest you try Knights of Pen and Paper 2.
4) Ignore me and everyone else and make up your own mind. It costs less than lunch at the pub.
The only thing I can tell you @sterner is that judging by your op you seem to have really enjoyed the aimless wandering that BG1 provides. SoD is a military campaign with rather well-defined objectives. It's much closer to Throne of Bhaal than to BG1: linear and when you leave an area, you often can't go back to it. NPCs can also complain if they feel you're wasting time exploring things. It's not enforced by gameplay, but it can make you feel pressured to some extent.
The best I can say about the game is that it felt like meeting up with old college buddies after a few years. Suddenly it's like no time has passed at all, but you find yourself amazed how things have changed. Getting the band back together to voice these guys (when they could) was a coup and a number of them even provided excellent player voice options, such as Jim Cummings (Minsc) providing a boisterous good-natured brute and Melissa Disney (Imoen) providing a sassy, no-nonsense adventurer. I don't usually play female Scions, but Disney's voiceset is easily excuse enough. They even convinced David Warner (Irenicus) to provide a voiceset and, though it comes off as "Irenicus Lite", still has to be my favorite male voiceset since Icewind Dale's Warrior 5. ("Excuse me, I'm just going to look for some of my blood... Oh, look! There's some!")
The worst I can say about the game is that the plot, being linear and having a rather disappointing climax, doesn't tempt me to play through it again, and I've replayed Throne of Bhaal a few times. I will replay the game again once it hits Android (as that's my preferred platform for this kind of game), but, while I'm bound to my computer, it just isn't intriguing enough to pull me away from other, more interesting games like Final Fantasy XIV, Skyrim, Fallout 4, and Dark Souls 3.
But, even after all the crap I talk about it, I know I'll be buying the game for a second time when it hits Android. That should probably say something about the game. Or me.
I guess guys like Ben Carson (you know, one of the premier neurosurgeons of the world) are uneducated because they're conservative. Comments like this are incredibly silly.
Some snide comments on political gaffs and the state of higher education...Meh. Politics are never a good idea for message board discussions. There are rabid extremists on both ends, and a neutral position is fodder for both.
I've seen Carson on TV, he struggles to string a coherent sentence together, let alone say anything that makes sense.
Anyway, here in the UK, even the conservatives are socially liberal (see: David Cameron).
Yes, sadly they didn't set up hooks in the game save that told you about the Scion's decisions in BG1. The closest they have is "Do you have any of Drizzt's gear? You must have killed the guy, then.", which is a shame. In fairness, they never expected Baldur's Gate to do well enough to
deservedemand a sequel. Remember, this was from the old days, where people created experimental games without having a franchise mapped out before development.Black Isle tried very hard to find a way to make a story that worked without access to your BG1 decisions, with fan favorites being given preferential treatment. In the end they told a very big, very complex story, that was in many ways more about the party than about the world they adventure in. It wasn't perfectly written, but I feel it was well written and is still one of the most variable and entertaining games I've seen.
2. Their own prejudices. Full stop.
3. It's an expansion. The story is good -- the epilogue is great, ignore claims to the contrary. Unfortunately, the game is entirely linear and lacks replay value so you'll be lucky to get 2 or 3 games out of it. Still, more bang for the buck than any of the Captain America movies so go for it.
Overall I'm pleased with the purchase so far. If I don't encounter something gamebreaking I will probably eventually pick up the rest of infinity engine collection. As for SoD - I found podcast with Chris Avellone discussing it. Well if Chris thinks it's worth discussing I guess nothing wrong with playthrough, even if some characters are written heavy-handedly. There wasn't a proper DnD game like for 8 years anyway.
You know, maybe you should try nudging GOG into changing how its reviews work, so it wouldn't display the aftermath of people from Codex bombing the reviews no matter how much you update the game.
@sterner Sorry about the arguments that are going on here; I think you just hit on a sore subject for some people. I am glad you are enjoying the game so far!
Even more so for first time players who might end up buying the the entire package. They don't know the circumstances surrounding SoDs development or they don't care and not everyone visits forums or looks behind the scenes. I imagine they would be genuinely confused as to why there is no mention of SoD in BG2 at all.
And SoD will be considered part of the main canon now for the foreseeable future. So there's no pretending it didn't happen.
So if things are left as they are now, case closed..Well that will become a problem imo.
1) multiplayer is still unsable as f*** but than again single player is all right
2) eh well minsc i guess but they got rid of the line. though i thought the people rioting against some of the "sjw" stuff did it for other reasons . the trans character e.g. had no story whatsoever exept "well i'm but a humble merchant npc - yes the kind that never talks - and btw: i was born the wrong sex and feel differently all right? " i think that was just poorly done i have no problem with their beeing a trans char arround.
other example in my books would be safana but here again i think the problem is in the execution of the idea of havin a quasi-feminist char: had they picked shar-teel for the role i would have aplauded but i dont think it works with safana, since she was - if nothing else- a femme fatale
3) gameplaywise you cant do much wrong it is infinity engine after all.
plotwise : if you liked the bg1 plot for not goeing anywhere there are two opions: you will hate sod or you will love it.
The plot in my opinion also only in the end gets anywhere but you cant just wander of and ignore it for the time beeing it is kinda linear