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BG:EE is on GOG sale. I'm thinking about picking Siege of Dragonspear, but reviews scare me.

2

Comments

  • ussnorwayussnorway Member Posts: 341
    sterner said:

    Greetings. I'm thinking about buying BG:EE and Siege of Dragonspear on GOG,
    snip...
    How bad is the bug situation by now? I don't think I can handle Fallout 2 level of bugs like I did when I was teen.

    There are lots of bugs... mostly in the subquests and the fact that the gog version is a dlc with files that don't match up.

    The posion quest (bgee1) is the worse one as it has been changed by Beamdog and can end your game.
    p.s,
    most of the neg reviews are about transgender which is just bullshit that has nothing to do with the game.

  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    1. It is extremely poorly written. Might have been better if the writer had played through the original games at least once.

    2. You have almost no rp options. Play as a female and your only option, when called "wench", is to be offended in 5-6 different ways.

    3. It contradicts BG1, 2, and the Forgotten Realms lore

    4. Bugs

    5. A token transgendered character added just to fill a quota. Also used to deflect all criticism. "Don't like the bugs? What you really mean is that you hate trans people and are a bigot".

    6. The writer's motivation was to make a political statement, not to honour a beloved franchise. See point 1.

    7. Filled with references to modern day issues/politics in America, and various bits of American...activism. For most people that breaks the fourth wall. The original games were more universal when it came to references and whatever. The rest of the world also doesn't have the same social issues as the US has, so getting that stuffed down your throat just isn't fun. This is coming from a Social-Lefty, so I actually agree with most of it. I just don't want it rammed down my throat in a fantasy game.

    LoldrupQuartzcbarker15
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    chimaera said:

    shawne said:


    By comparison, the SOD characters feel much closer to the BG2 characterizations. Go play BG2 again (without mods) if you don't believe me. The only exception is Voghlin, because half his stuff was cut, unfortunately.

    Really? Because most of BG2's characters go through some kind of arc throughout the game. They start in one place, and they end somewhere else. This is true for Neera in SoD; it's certainly not for Corwin, or Dorn, or Safana. M'Khiin has a big, life-altering dilemma that comes up in one conversation, is resolved in the same conversation, and is never brought up again. You could maybe say that matches Korgan in terms of content and characterization, but that's not exactly a glowing note of recommendation.


    BG2 starts with forcing NPCs on the player that my character murdered in BG1 (thus disregarding the player's choices up to that point); turns Imoen into a plot device (and an annoying one too), which doesn't even make much sense; the game itself has very few options outside of playing a hero and charisma is a dump stat.

    BG2 is one of my favourite games, but the writing? Is just not that good. And that includes NPC characterization.
    The BG games didn't let you import choices and a world-state. That is why dead NPCs show up. Large imports from game to game is a fairly new feature in gaming. You can't really blame a game for not having a technology that wasn't even around when it came out.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,144
    Yes, the monty python references in BG1 were so much more immersive.

  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    ThacoBell said:

    Yes, the monty python references in BG1 were so much more immersive.

    No, but they were universal. Everyone in the world knows who the Monty Python are\were.

    In any case that was a humorous reference. The gamergate bit is political nagging that isn't really relevant outside of tumlr or Reddit.

    Quartz
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited November 2016
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    GrumQuartz
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,633
    Rawgrim said:

    ThacoBell said:

    Yes, the monty python references in BG1 were so much more immersive.

    No, but they were universal. Everyone in the world knows who the Monty Python are\were.

    In any case that was a humorous reference. The gamergate bit is political nagging that isn't really relevant outside of tumlr or Reddit.
    they removed the gamer gate line

    Quartz
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,590
    It feels like a mix between BG and Icewind Dale. I'd say the most of the game is very good, on most aspects, but there are some things that are bad, and what hurts is that there is at least one bad moment on most aspects of the game.
    Mizhena's writing, Entar's voice-acting, the (do not open that one if you have not finished the game)
    plot twist with Caelar wanting to save her uncle, wtf. By the way, Belhifet should not exactly be so powerless as to be defeated by a level-10 team in his own palace
    . Though 95% of the game is very good, this is what remains in people's mind.
    But as I said, these are few, in the end, and the global feeling was, in my case, great.
    The only thing that I really disliked was how battles were about having enough AoEs to deal with the crapton of cannon fodder you had against you, rather than some real tactical challenges. IWD-style battles. With a 500k exp cap, we are hitting levels where strategy and good use of your possibilities should really make a difference. About every fight in my first SoD playthrough was solved with Baeloth scouting, finding a group of enemies, retreats out of sight, throwing a fireball while M'khin is throwing a Spirit fire, repeat that a couple of times while kiting enemies, well played you just decimated 15 enemies.
    The single battle I felt like I was facing some sort of tactical challenge was (idem, do not open that one unless you have finished the game)
    the one against Belhifet. I mean, I had to think of a specific strategy. Which is not something I have done at any moment before that in SoD. For those interested, I had M'khin with True sight to dispel Belhifet's invisibility every round, Viccy casting Magic resistance on Belhifet, that it might be set low enough, down to 20% for me to hurt him with magic, and then Baeloth spamming spells at his head.


    I know the context, the plot forces such types of battle, as it is basically an army vs army situation, but still, I could have used more battles involving strategy, even as sidequests. Also it does not feel that good that my Charname, a Corsair (fighter kit from the Might'n'Guile mod, a supernice mod) was hardly useful at all since he could only take a single enemy at a time. He basically was a tank here to get the attention while waiting for those fireballs and spirit fires to wreak havoc. Any fighter/fighting class would have ended this way, I guess, since a fireball would be equivalent, damage-wise, to 10 rounds of them attacking the enemy.

    What I really did like however is that though the plot is rather straightforward, there are tons of things you might miss if you do not pay attention, and managing that in such a plot was a real prowess.

    I'd rate it 8/10, as it is great overall, but a couple of things stain the painting, and the lack of tactical challenges hurts as well.

    Quartz
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,144
    Rawgrim said:

    ThacoBell said:

    Yes, the monty python references in BG1 were so much more immersive.

    No, but they were universal. Everyone in the world knows who the Monty Python are\were.

    In any case that was a humorous reference. The gamergate bit is political nagging that isn't really relevant outside of tumlr or Reddit.
    There are sooooo many references in BG1 and there is no way they are all universal. Criticizing SOD for including references, while also giving BG1 a pass for including them, is nothing short of hypocritical.

    CalemyrKuronaGrumsemiticgoddess
  • PaladinPaladin Member Posts: 335


    2) There were 3 things in the game that became controversial in SoD: ... and improved characters of Safana and Jaheira.

    Hi Julius,

    How were Safana and Jaheira "improved"?

    Quartz
  • CalemyrCalemyr Member Posts: 238
    Jaheira is more pleasant and shows more affection for Khalid. If her voice acting hadn't fallen through, it'd be entirely for the best.

    Safana... I can see what JuliusBorisov is saying, but I don't share the opinion. In BG1 she came off as playfully mischievous. In SoD, she felt like she had a major chip on her shoulder and tended to flirt more as an afterthought than for her own amusement. Glint is a much more enjoyable thief to have in the party.

    Quartz
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,590
    Calemyr said:

    Jaheira is more pleasant and shows more affection for Khalid. If her voice acting hadn't fallen through, it'd be entirely for the best.

    Safana... I can see what JuliusBorisov is saying, but I don't share the opinion. In BG1 she came off as playfully mischievous. In SoD, she felt like she had a major chip on her shoulder and tended to flirt more as an afterthought than for her own amusement. Glint is a much more enjoyable thief to have in the party.

    I'd say it is exactly because she would not talk that much in the original game that some of us consider the SoD version to be great while some feel like it's not in tune with BG1 version. Safana, much like most other NPCs, would not talk a lot, had very few banters etc... which left room for interpretation, a lot more of it than what you could have in BG2 where banters were more numerous, or SoD. Your call on that one was that she was "playfully mischievous", mine, and @JuliusBorisov 's I guess, was that she already was much like she is in SoD. I find the romance to be very, very well written. Safana acts as the "hot chick" yet not so easily reached, kind of like a princess that a prince has to conquer. And that's exactly how I felt she was in BG1

    JuliusBorisov
  • CalemyrCalemyr Member Posts: 238
    Which... really bothers me. How is "princess the prince has to conquer" less sexist than "canny woman who knows how to get people to do what she wants them to"?

    That said, I haven't seen her romance and don't intend to, given what I've heard about how it ends. Same for Volghiln for the same reasons. So I suppose I should leave such judgments to them as have seen it.

    Quartz
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,590
    Calemyr said:

    Which... really bothers me. How is "princess the prince has to conquer" less sexist than "canny woman who knows how to get people to do what she wants them to"?

    That said, I haven't seen her romance and don't intend to, given what I've heard about how it ends. Same for Volghiln for the same reasons. So I suppose I should leave such judgments to them as have seen it.

    I would not bother with these sexism things. As much as some would like everyone to think otherwise, there are women that behave thus, much like there are men that would back down from nothing to get to their ends. This has nothing to do with gender, it's just the way some people are, and in my mind there is no more difference between a womanizer and a woman with many partners than their physical assets.

    ThacoBellJuliusBorisovsemiticgoddess
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621

    Paladin said:


    2) There were 3 things in the game that became controversial in SoD: ... and improved characters of Safana and Jaheira.

    Hi Julius,

    How were Safana and Jaheira "improved"?
    Basically, in BG1 they had only several lines and banters. In SoD, they have much more dialogues and personality. In the spoiler below I will adress Safana - the same can be said about Jaheira.



    Here're all possible BG1 banters for Safana:

    Replies to Coran:

    "I assume, Coran, that you think that your elven charms are considerably. Let me enlighten you, they aren't!"
    "Watch what you say, Elf!"
    "I might find you attractive, Coran, if you weren't so irritating."

    INSULT towards Minsc/Edwin/Garrick
    - My feet are very sore, perhaps you could massage them.

    RESPONSE TO INSULT (from Ajantis and Tiax)
    - I like it when you're nasty to me.
    - You could be somewhat more creative in your insults.

    COMPLIMENT (towards Kivan, Ajantis/Xan)
    - You're a very sexy man.
    - I'd love to see what other skills you possess.

    RESPONSE TO COMPLIMENT (from Xzar, Khalid and Eldoth)
    - I always love a good compliment.
    - I love it when you speak to me that way!
    - You have about as much appeal as a rotting owl bear!
    - You think that I'd surrendur myself to the likes of you? That's a laugh!

    GENERAL DEATH
    - The rest of you should be careful, lest you end up like our unfortunate friend.

    UNIQUE DEATH (after Coran's death)
    - Don't die silly elf, I didn't mean all of the things I've said.

    Here're all general BG1 quotes for Safana:

    INT = I've been looking for. . . strong men like yourselves.
    MOR = Nothing's worth dying for.
    BCY = N/A
    LEA = This is probably the sanest decision this group has ever made.
    TIR = A woman needs her beauty rest.
    BOR = Perhaps we could do something a little more exciting than looking pretty.
    HUR = I'm hurt, stop what you're doing and help me now.
    DMG = *Damage Sound*
    DYN = *Death Sound*

    Where
    INT = First encounter with NPC
    MOR = Morale Failure
    BCY = Occurs when launching into battle
    LEA = NPC moved to Leader slot
    TIR = Fatigue
    BOR = Idle
    HUR = Takes Damage
    DMG = Damage Sound
    DYN = Death Sound

    Here're all BG1 reputation quotes for Safana:

    HPY = Mmmmm. I keep very pleasant company.
    ANY = I really think this party needs new leadership.
    SRS = To lead this party, we need someone intelligent, preferably female, and most likely me.
    BRK = I've tried to guide this group in the right direction, but I'm tired of trying. Goodbye.

    Where
    HPY = HAPPY
    ANY = UNHAPPY_ANNOYED
    SRS = UNHAPPY_SERIOUS
    BRK = UNHAPPY_BREAKING_POINT

    Here're all BG1 selection lines for Safana:

    CMN = Yes dear?
    CMN = I'll do anything.
    CMN = I feel so sensual.
    RAR = Between two evils I always choose the one I haven't tried.
    RAR = I love it when you speak to me that way.
    RAR = When I'm good I'm very very good, but when I'm bad I'm better.
    RAR = Everyone in this party is entitled to my opinion.
    ACT = If that's your desire.
    ACT = With pleasure.
    ACT = Of course, darling.

    Where
    CMN = SELECT_COMMON
    RAR = SELECT_RARE
    ACT = SELECT_ACTION

    Here's the only BG1 area quote for Safana:

    CTY = The city is a beautiful place, so full of the gullible and stupid.

    Where
    CTY = AREA_CITY

    Other than these, there're no unique banter dialogues for Safana in BG1.

    Source:
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/11692/list-of-npc-interactions-banters
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/12045/npc-interaction-and-banter-guide-ok-finished


    Instead of these few lines, Safana in SoD has a lot more about her.

    Here's just one her starting SoD dialogue:

    Safana: Damn you to all Nine Hells, Coran, I swear I'm going to -- Oh, Hello.
    Charname: Greetings. How does this afternoon find you, Safana?
    Safana: It's been less than pleasant thus far, but it's improving by the second. Come in, Charname, come in. Make yourself comfortable.
    Safana: What brings you to my door?
    Charname: A desire to see you isn't sufficient?
    Safana: Nice try, Charname. I've spent the last month with that two-faced elf, Coran. A flattering tongue will get you nowhere. What do you want, really?
    Charname: Your company on a journey north. I go to face the Shining Lade, Caelar Argent.
    Safana: Who?
    Charname: Caelar Argent. We're going to fight her. We'd like your help.
    Safana: "We"? Or "you"?
    Charname: We.
    Safana: You're hurting my feeling, Charname. But I never could say no to you. Then again, I can't think of a single thing you could ask that would make me want to...

    This is one dialogue, ONE. Even in this dialogue Safana already says more than nearly during whole BG1. And even in this one dialogue Safana, true to her BG1 lines, speaks about Coran.

    And even in this one dialogue Safana already has an innuendo: "We"? Or "you"? and "I never could say no to you. Then again, I can't think of a single thing you could ask that would make me want to..."

    There's a lot more of Safana in SoD after that.

    A romance for a male charname. A romance with another NPC for a female charname.

    And all her lines are voiced in a very sexy manner by Stephanie Wolfe, who stays true to the vanilla voice over work by Diane Pershing.

    So, please, stop telling about rewriting Safana in order to be in tune with her original personality.

    SoD Safana is very much in tune with BG1 Safana, but with more banters, a romance and voiced lines.

    They have 1 personality in BG1. A different one in Siege because "progressive". And in BG2 they have reverted back to their first personality. Next time hire a writer that has actually played the games.

    QuartzWarChiefZeke
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,633
    i'm also really getting sick of Rawgrim's nonsense. i roll my eyes every-time i see he made a comment in a sod thread as i know exactly whats gonna happen. he already said he is never gonna play the game so why even post about it?

  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636

    i'm also really getting sick of Rawgrim's nonsense. i roll my eyes every-time i see he made a comment in a sod thread as i know exactly whats gonna happen. he already said he is never gonna play the game so why even post about it?

    Because complaining about it is easier than actually spending $20 and trying it out.

    TressetQuartz
  • qwerty123456qwerty123456 Member Posts: 67
    edited December 2016
    Calemyr said:

    Have to agree with ThacoBell on this one. They only reference a different decade's memes. Here we've got a Wizzard's hat from the Discworld books, there we've got Larry, Darryl, and Darryl from the TV show Newhart. If you have the strength to endure the site TVTropes, there's a huge list of silly references all through BG1, from a bar patron quoting the movie Taxi Cab to the thieves' guild having "Fafhrd" as their password. SoD is not more meme-filled than the franchise in general, it's just more likely meme's and references that the audience will recognize.

    A reference is not a fault per se. On the contrary, a good and well-placed reference adds to overall enjoyment. (For me, at least). It breaks the 4th wall and bonds the developers and the audience.
    However, there's a difference between a reference and a reference.
    - if my memory is not failing me, PS:T has some references to Ecclesiast. That's one "level" of the source, so to speak.
    - BG references Monty Python, Oscar Wilde, etc. That's another level.
    - And now we got a reference to a last year's MEME. I don't know who's the target audience here, but it's certainly not me.
    - What's next? Cram a goatse reference into next patch? I just don't see how to fall any lower.

    And before you iterate that this specific line was removed, checking out that trope page, I see that there are now references to things like Walking Dead, etc.

    Guys. (I mean the devs here). Here's a really simple rule of thumb. If it's not over 15 years old, don't reference it.
    BG stood the test of time. PS:T stood the test of time. In 50 years, people will still read Wilde, and watch Monty Python - and even Taxi Driver. If anyone manages to launch those games by then, they will GET IT.

    No one will remember a 50 year old meme.

    Quartz
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,633
    the thing is there were a few references in the first game that fit right at home.

    neera's you rang and dorn's journal entry when you meet him at the friendly arm

    the first i an Adam's family reference and the 2nd is from full house.


    and then there is bg2 which had one of dorn's quest use a breaking bad reference. and that show is not even 10 years old yet.

    Quartz
  • qwerty123456qwerty123456 Member Posts: 67
    Well... apparently you are the target audience for this.. breaking bad material. Good for you, congratulations. Just don't complain when 4chan takes over.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,144
    Except SoD isn't 15 years old. BG wasn't restricted to decades old references when it first came out either. There are completely legitimate criticisms of SoD, but complaining because its references aren't dated is just looking for reasons to complain. How many people coming into these games new remembers any Monty Python that isn't the Holy Grail, or how many people outside the Netherlands will recognize a folk song from the netherlands? The original devs referenced things they enjoyed. To deny the current devs that same freedom is elitest and selfish.

    Grum
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    ThacoBell said:

    Except SoD isn't 15 years old. BG wasn't restricted to decades old references when it first came out either. There are completely legitimate criticisms of SoD, but complaining because its references aren't dated is just looking for reasons to complain. How many people coming into these games new remembers any Monty Python that isn't the Holy Grail, or how many people outside the Netherlands will recognize a folk song from the netherlands? The original devs referenced things they enjoyed. To deny the current devs that same freedom is elitest and selfish.

    "Dead Parrot" is all that needs to be said here..................

    I don't think the point is to deny artistic freedom more that they need to get it right.
    So, for instance, the BG "autographs from the kobald ect." will go over most people's heads but the small episode was charming in it's own right anyway. (and you get 100gp for selling it)

    And in SOD there's the same type of encounter where you get a picture of a gnoll.
    Most won't know that picture is based on a BG fan's child's drawing (unless you read about it here) but will get the reference to BG and anyway, the encounter again is charming.

    QuartzGrum
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,144
    Who judges whether a reference is charming or not? The people who lambast SoD for including non dated references are being hypocites. Pure and simple.

    Grum
  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,255
    I really, really hate getting into this topic but I'd just like to say that as the ignorant youth that I am the majority of the pop culture references in the game flew over my head and I dismissed them as general character quirkiness. Modern references are fine, just make them appropriate.

    Quartz
  • FrancoisFrancois Member Posts: 452
    The point of a good reference is precisely that not every one will get it. There's a warm and smug feeling you get when you see an obscure reference of something you like. I guess we judge the charm of a reference not by how many people get it, but by how many of those enjoy it. In that regard it makes no difference if a reference become so outdated in 50 years that only 0.0001% of players will ''get it''. These lucky few will get a proportionnally larger enjoyment of it.

  • qwerty123456qwerty123456 Member Posts: 67
    ThacoBell said:

    Who judges whether a reference is charming or not? The people who lambast SoD for including non dated references are being hypocites. Pure and simple.

    Those who can judge.
    And no one was "lambasting" the expansion for including non dated references. Stop making things up. Shitty references, yes.

This discussion has been closed.