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Race restrictions for classes explanation

DragonOfShadesDragonOfShades Member Posts: 56
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
So, was there any logical/lore explanation why in 2nd Edition which BG uses some races can't pick certain classes/multiclasses? Like why elves can't be Clerics/Mages or Bards, Halflings can't be Clerics/Thieves or Mages, etc?
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  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,028
    Depends on ones definition of "logical/lore." 2nd Edition is pre-Wizards, a LOT of things are different back then than they are now. Perhaps it was to make your racial choice mean something more than just stats. Who knows, I certainly don't. Heck, I wasn't formally introduced to D&D until 4th edition was out!

    As for the game itself, you can mod just about any class and race to be used together, with the exception of the Monk, which actually does have a logical, out-of-game explanation. No other race was programed and sprited (...what's the past tense of sprite?) with the special animations Monks use.
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    Both OD&D and AD&D was rather pro-human centered. Playable demihumans were considered more of an exotic exception from the norm that got shoe-horned into specific, limited stereotypes. To put it plainly, it's a design flaw of old. Originated from copying & pasting various fantasy tropes into a single campaign setting without much thought. Well, to be fair when Ed Greenwood came up with that he was still a child. But anyhow...

    Later on the restrictions were loosened somewhat with the appearance of race specific, optional books for elves, gnomes, halfings, dwarves and other humanoids. Like non-arcane dwarvish Bards for instance.

    When WotC bought AD&D from TSR, they reinforced this trend into what it is now in 5th edition. The end.
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 951
    And there were racial limits to demihuman races. If you were elven fighter/mage you cant be 20/20 at and of tob because of racial levrel limit. Gygax dont like non demihumans at all, he felt if there are too strong and easy to use that races nobody will play humans.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    JumboWheat01 said:

    As for the game itself, you can mod just about any class and race to be used together, with the exception of the Monk, which actually does have a logical, out-of-game explanation. No other race was programed and sprited (...what's the past tense of sprite?) with the special animations Monks use.

    Besides this, the racial restrictions to specialist mages are hardcoded for some reason, so you cannot lift those restrictions either.
  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,028
    Really? Where there goes my hopes and dreams of modding in Abjurer as the lone Dwarf wizard kit.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    @subtledoctor You are right. I was thinking of how I once edited Clsrcreq.2da so that any race could be any class... At the time I was unaware that there was a second .2da for the specialist mages. By bad.
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  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    edited November 2016
    @subtledoctor Heh, try looking into editing clsrcreq.2da as well as mgsrcreq.2da. I get the feeling these two files work together somehow...
    Post edited by Tresset on
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,459
    Yeah it's sort of "just because we said so"

    I own a lot of AD&D and 2e AD&D books and there even exceptions to the rules. Like Elves can be Bards but only the Minstrel Kit if I recall. Gnomes can be Jesters and Dwarves can be Chanters and Skalds.

    In the Complete Book of Necromancers it says Drow can be Necromancers while normal elves cannot (because reasons).

    And then I believe by core Elves cannot be Druids but either in the Complete book of Elves or the Druid Handbook it says Elves can be Druids.

    Imo it's a design flaw. Settings should have class/race restrictions but not base rules. Either I way as noted before mods fix this easily.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    subtledoctor said:

    I think gnomes are still hard-coded to be illusionists though. The above code only frees up elves and half-elves.

    I assume that is connected to the code that allows them to be multiclassed illusionists, even though Baldur's Gate does not normally allow multiclassed specialist mages.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    JumboWheat01 said:

    Fardragon said:

    I think that in most cases the intent was that certain races do not normally choose certain careers because of their culture, not because it is impossible for them to do so. So a normal elf would be brought up in a culture that viewed necromancy as a violation, whilst a drow would be culturally inclined to see it as a useful tool. Humans where more numerous and culturally diverse, so they had no restrictions.

    Thus, in a PnP game, if a player could come up with a good reason why their sun elf was a necromancer, the DM could allow it.

    Unfortunately, some DMs could be a bit dogmatic in their enforcement of the rules, so they where explicitly relaxed in later editions.

    Which is why our restrictions in Baldur's Gate are so harsh. We're clearly being raised up by a human, in a human-centric location, we should clearly have access to all classes that humans do regardless of our race, yes? But the Baldur's Gate DM is so STINGY. STINGY I SAY!
    Which is why I feel no guilt about using mods.

    But if you are trying to be logical, there are a few class choices that should be rather difficult to acquire as Gorion's ward, e.g. barbarian, shaman, blackguard.
  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,028
    edited November 2016
    Actually the Shaman one has a brilliant explanation in it for its default background. Let's see here...
    Character Generation said:

    As a child, your sightings of invisible creatures and spirits greatly concerned your foster father, Gorion. It was only after the shaman of an Uthgardt barbarian tribe from Icewind Dale delivered an ancient scroll to Candlekeep that your abilities' true nature became known. He performed the initiation ceremony that was the first step on the spirit path towards becoming a shaman.

    Unlike with Druids or Rangers, you actually have someone from the outside coming to influence you and basically taught you how to be one.
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 731
    The Blackguard could be a pact you make just after Gorion is killed, that first night alone in the wilderness. Otherwise, it makes no sense
  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 957
    mashedtaters said:

    Wow, I'm feeling a lot of negativity going at Gygax, The Man Who Made D&D Famous, for one little design flaw in a system that influenced the cultural world of media and information, the nuts and bolts of which remained essentially unchanged at its core until the apostasy known as 4e D&D, but was thankfully reincarnated as 5e (from what I have heard).

    I wouldn't say it was a "little" design flaw, given that races and classes are pretty much the most fundamental attributes of a character, they define WHAT you are and what you DO. And the nuts and bolts of race-classes was changed by 3rd edition. I should know, I started with it back in 2002 and consider 3.5 to be the best (although I haven't actually looked at 5th edition yet) because it clarified a lot of ambiguously worded rules in 3.0 and expanded on it more. There were no race restrictions in 3rd, only a "favored class" that tied a race to prefer to be something, while humans could be anything (and I think half-elf, it's been years since I played PnP, actually) because their favored class was any and they basically got to ignore the multi-class penalty.

    I've never actually played 2nd edition rules except for Infinity Engine games, though I have some of the rule books, and I find the system to be very self-limiting. Races can only be this, stats can only go up to 25, and other things like that. I've read some 1st edition books when I was with my original DnD group and found that even more limiting, where every non-human had a max level and it was absurdly low.

    In 3rd, you could BE anything and there were rules to support it.

    I'd never play 2nd, but I do enjoy the novels of that time period in Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms.
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 951
    I dont know about a lot of bad thngs dnd 4e, but u liked to play it. I like 5e too. Its another game(4e) but perfect in its own style.
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  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 951
    subtledoctor said:

    Danacm said:

    And there were racial level limits to demihuman races. Gygax ... felt if there are too strong and easy to use that races nobody will play humans.

    Which is pretty much true, to be fair to Gygax. The kids these days are all about tiefling warlocks and genasi sorcerers etc. I find it super boring. I mean in a setting designed for that sort of thing, it would be cool (E.g. drow in the Eberron setting).
    Fardragon said:

    subtledoctor said:

    I think gnomes are still hard-coded to be illusionists though. The above code only frees up elves and half-elves.

    I assume that is connected to the code that allows them to be multiclassed illusionists, even though Baldur's Gate does not normally allow multiclassed specialist mages.
    Actually, as of the 2.0 patch, mods can make specialist kits (and any other kits) available to multiclass characters. Aquadrizzt has published a code library that anyone can use very easily.
    I dont blame Gygax, just stated what i read about demihuman level caps, and another hard caps. Gygax had a vision and we all like his game and ideas. And there were truth in his words, every player nowdays wants to be different and special, and seems the human is boring, but @subtledoctor did you know why the poor tv viewers like daily telenovels about rich characters, and dont like realistic tv shows about poors like them ? Because they want to be entertained, be rich for about 45 minutes, be something different without hard work or great luck. And what is a rpg adventurer wants to be ? :D its a so interesting question but need maybe another topic, and better english from me :wink:
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Halfings not bring able to be bards is criminal.
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,459
    edited November 2016
    Oh thanks for reminding me, they too can be Jesters (They can also be Heralds, Jongleurs, Riddlemasters, and the Halfling-only Whistler! None of which are available in BG lol).

    Edit: They, too, can only counterspell. They can't learn actual spells.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    I may try to provide some files that make just about any race able to be any class... but that would involve changing a lot of 0's to 1's and I am a bit tired right now...
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    My halfling barbarian dual wields bastard swords.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Tresset said:

    I may try to provide some files that make just about any race able to be any class... but that would involve changing a lot of 0's to 1's and I am a bit tired right now...

    I know that tweaks anthology has a component to remove race restrictions, its kind of my favorite mod. Note that there is a bug to that component that doesn't allow fighter/illusionist for gnome multiclass. Can be fixed with eekeeper though.
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