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The LoB + SCS Solo Challenge vs Bhaal´s Cataclysm

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  • histamiinihistamiini Member Posts: 1,473
    edited August 2019
    The 1 hp trick could indeed be nice way for sorcerer or pure mage to pass Belhifet in to SoA. Then you could start leveling normally. But it doesn't seem to work in my game, newest EE, SCS and Ascension. If it worked, another way to get 1 con would be from multiple Familiar kills?
  • EnuhalEnuhal Member, Moderator Posts: 1,058
    edited August 2019
    @semiticgod The Voidstone questline is optional, I didn't even realize it existed the first time I played through SoD. I'm not 100% sure if you can surrender the camp without doing it, though - I just attacked the crusaders directly without doing any bridgefort sidequests.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @histamiini: It's working in my BG1 install, both with physical damage, poison damage, elemental damage, and simultaneous hits, like missile and fire from a Kobold Commando arrow. Are you doing it in SoA with a character above level 1? It only works for level 1 characters with 1 HP (1 CON is more or less required; I think familiar death will kill you), when taking more than 1 damage (so bonus damage needs to be enabled). It might also be BG1-exclusive.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,456
    I updated my installation to SCS 32.4 and generated an elven sorcerer with the aim of trying out the min HP tactic. There was a fair amount of work though before getting HPs down to 1. Preparatory work for that was done as follows:
    - summoned a pseudo-dragon familiar in Candlekeep.
    - tried to kill Imoen, but she appeared to be unkillable (I presume until she is recruited, which I don't allow in solo runs). The same applied to Xzar and Montaron, but Neera went down OK.
    - killed Algernon for his cloak.
    - charmed an ogre for its belt.
    - picked up the Ring of Wizardry.
    - looked on from a distance as some gnolls killed Drizzt and picked up their leavings.
    - picked up the ankheg armor in Nashkel and learnt LMD.
    - grabbed the red and violet potions from the Carnival.
    - charmed two gate guards to kill Tarnesh and then pulled Jaheira outside with the aim of getting her invisibility potion (unfortunately she was also unkillable).
    - killed some fishermen north of the FAI. Their bowl was returned to Tenya on the way to Ulgoth's Beard, where the familiar made short work of Dushai to get her ring of free action.
    - some donations were followed by reputation increases from Joia, Mr Colquetle, Firebead, Hulrik (the familiar attacking does not activate the other xvarts), Brage, Oublek, Charleston Nib and Mirianne to get reputation up to 20.
    - charisma scrolls helped reduce prices to the minimum to buy the Claw & Horn of Kazgaroth followed by the Cloak of Displacement, Aule's staff and the Greenstone Amulet.
    - while Frail still had a familiar, she went to the basilisk area and waited while it killed all the basilisks (with Korax's help against Mutamin's pets).
    - Kirian and her friends were charmed and disposed of.

    No damage taken to date, but next I'll see whether killing a familiar (or 3) works for me ...
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I'm going with a Diviner, so Find Familiar isn't an option--I'm going to just use the Claw of Kazgaroth.

    But I just found out that there's a certain type of spider, which I just saw on a rest ambush, that webs the target on a failed save vs. death for 37 seconds every hit. Basically, it's a permanent stun-lock for a solo character. It seems really stupid to have an attack that powerful on an everyday Giant Spider. It may as well be a basilisk.
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 3,079
    semiticgod wrote: »
    I'm going with a Diviner, so Find Familiar isn't an option--I'm going to just use the Claw of Kazgaroth.

    But I just found out that there's a certain type of spider, which I just saw on a rest ambush, that webs the target on a failed save vs. death for 37 seconds every hit. Basically, it's a permanent stun-lock for a solo character. It seems really stupid to have an attack that powerful on an everyday Giant Spider. It may as well be a basilisk.

    Well, the same could be said about ghouls and every enemy cleric who casts Hold Person. Baldur's Gate has always had common enemies that can paralyze you, easily ending a solo run.

    You could always buy some Potions of Freedom from Thalantyr.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @OlvynChuru: True, but this is very much not vanilla behavior, nor have I seen it any previous installs. It's thematically appropriate, but to my knowledge, it's not something spiders have ever been able to do before, even in SCS.
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 3,079
    edited August 2019
    @semiticgod I don't know how recent it is, but it is added by SCS. I found this in the SCS readme:
    Improved Spiders

    ...

    HARDCORE and above: Giant spiders get a modified bite attack that does less poison damage, but wraps the target in webbing.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Must be a v32 thing. It seems rather odd to include both Web Tangle and an on-hit Web effect, though.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,456
    The ring of free action seems like an obvious way to avoid the problem of being permanently held.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,456
    Frail duly sent 3 familiars to be killed to reduce her constitution to 3. The mechanic behind that is for the loss of HPs to take place first, followed by the magic damage penalty - that means HPs are lowered before the penalty strikes, allowing it to be resisted.
    uhgjdeake4mi.jpg

    With constitution down to 3, she stopped killing familiars and put the Claw on - judging the saving throw bonuses from that to be helpful overall, in case of being targeted by something like chromatic orb.
    movte0rkz53u.jpg
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,456
    edited August 2019
    In the Nashkel Mine I decided to test out whether the kobolds would disperse if faced with an invisible enemy. I'd thought SCS would incorporate the sort of shifting introduced in SoD in that situation, but that didn't happen ;).
    pqrwvhagnyyc.jpg

    I hadn't yet got the wand of monster summoning, so was faced with the prospect of many, many hours of fighting to break out of the trap - I'll just restart the game instead ...
  • histamiinihistamiini Member Posts: 1,473
    edited August 2019
    @semiticgod The 1 hp trick only works with SCS if the No Difficulty Based Damage is deselected.

    I see sudden influx of wizards storming on Belhifet. :D And I also rolled Elf Sorcerer to test this out. Pseudo Dragon first nibbled Imoen, Xzar and Montaron. Then I tried to kill it against Tarnesh but it wasted him together with a guard. Then it killed Jaheira, and the bar keeps lightning bolt then killed both the Dragon and Khalid. Nice one and got one Invisibility potion.

    qxb72clcv5rk.png

    Next Dragon killed Neera and Algernon, before getting killed on some Ogrillons. Then listened Drizzt getting killed, went in Carnival and bought couple potions. But before passing Nashkel Mines I fed three Familiars to Kobbos getting the 1 hp damage immunity. Used the one Invisibility potion to not get boxed in army of Kobbos. Charmed Mulahey, although I had to hit with Wand of Frost couple times because he started running away again.

    1vezxaa7ba0k.png

    To make some damage I picked up Hentolds Dagger and killed the Revenant with it, then Dushai. Bought rep to 14 then did the rest of the economy run. Also killed Bassilus which took freaking long time because I was diseased, almost managed to watch a full feature movie before he was down.

    8762etkebce0.png
  • histamiinihistamiini Member Posts: 1,473
    edited August 2019
    After reaching to Baldur's Gate I was doing some testing and noticed something that made me actually restart from the beginning. As killing Familiar is handled as a permanent con penalty, rather than permanent reduction, after having -5 permanent penalty, drinking Violet potion for 25 str would immediatelly kill me, as it would set my con to 3-5 = -2. Drinking Vial of Mysterious Liquid is handled differently, as a permanent reduction. So the optimal way to handle this as a Elf Sorcerer is to kill two Familiars and drink one Mysterious Liquid for 5-2 = 3 con, and then use the Claw that further penalizes it with -2. You can then remove the Claw when time is right and drink Violet potion for 25 str and 1 con.

    Scrolls that I know that hurt Bel are Fireshield Blue, Snillocs Snowball Swarm and Lance of Distuption. There's 7 Fireshield Blues in the game, which should be alone enough, but if it isn't, Flind form could be probably the best bet hurting Bel. 3 apr with Oil of Speed, +3 Halberd 1d10+1 + bonuses.

    EDIT: actually using Black Bear form gives 5 apr when dual wielding a dagger which is the best. Some problems though, Polymorph self scroll only lasts 31 rounds and always sets str. And there's only 2x50 rounds of Enchanted Weapons available.
    Post edited by histamiini on
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I got back to Baldur's Gate, but died in the Candlekeep Catacombs due to Draw Upon Holy Might, which increased my CON by 1 and therefore bumped my HP to 2. Two hits and I was dead. Lesson learned--don't rely on DUHM and the STR tome to open one of the tombs. The Red or Violet Potion or a trio of Knock scrolls will be the safe option.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @histamiini: Snilloc's Snowball Swarm shouldn't bypass MR anymore; an SCS update removed that IWD-style behavior. Lance of Disruption will still bypass MR, though.

    Belhifet has 4 APR and a Fire Shield scroll should last 10 rounds, which amounts to 130 damage per scroll, or 910 with all 7. A hasted +3 staff at 19 STR with Emotion, Courage and Emotion, Hope should deal 3.075 damage per round on average (you only hit on criticals, but the criticals deal double damage, so the multiplier is 0.1 instead of 0.05), which amounts to about 150 damage before the scrolls run out. Enchanted Weapon will last 35 rounds and dual-wielded daggers will deal about 1 more point of damage per round than the staff, so each Enchanted Weapon scroll basically means another 35 damage (or 70 if one of your daggers is the Acid-Etched Dagger from the Blind Albino Wyrmling). Phantom Blade can add a few points as well. Lance of Disruption will add 8.4375 per scroll.

    It's pretty close to Belhifet's max HP, but even if you don't make it, your unbuffed net damage against Belhifet still slightly outweighs his regeneration (if only by less than a point of damage per round), so as long as you can resist demon fear and any charm spells from the Erinyes (and each Potion of Clarity lasts 50 rounds), you can just leave the fight on standby forever, since Belhifet can never actually kill you. It's probably worth it to hoard Potions of Clarity and scrolls of Emotion, Courage and Emotion, Hope.

    Where is the 7th Fire Shield, Blue scroll? I only see 6 on Belegarm.
  • histamiinihistamiini Member Posts: 1,473
    edited August 2019
    @semiticgod Resar has the 7th Fireshield Blue scroll, he's in the Thieves Guild. Also it lasts 13 rounds as it's cast at level 10, Enchanted Weapon too is cast at level 10 so it lasts 50 rounds. I tested the Snillocs Snowball Swarm and it still hits in SCS 32.4, although the damage is low, on average like 5. It's interesting that still, even not taking any damage, Sorcerer can (maybe) only just bring Bel down. :D
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @histamiini Apparently Resar is unavailable if you don't visit the Thieves Guild before killing Slythe. I just checked in before the Ducal Palace and all the thieves are already dead!

    If that's a bug, I'll use the console to fix it. Is this a bug?
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    And I just died in SoD. I selected the Fireball option for the Wand of Fire instead of the Agannazar's Scorcher option and turned Corwin hostile. The only reason I was participating in that fight anyway is because Corwin scolds you if you run straight downstairs.

    Meh. It's just as well. I was considering restarting anyway, just to use Knock scrolls in the Candlekeep catacombs instead of the Violet Potion so I'd have 25 STR for Belhifet, and to make sure I got that last Fireshield Blue scroll.

    So, I've suffered a soft-lock to a spider using a non-standard weapon, a trap that caught me after I shapeshifted and lost the CON penalties from the Claw of Kazgaroth, and bombing Corwin by accident.

    Weird ways to die, which makes sense considering we're talking about a build that's immune to damage.
  • histamiinihistamiini Member Posts: 1,473
    @semiticgod I don't know if it's intented but yeah, Resar will be gone when the thieves are dead.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    How viable do you guys think this build will really be long-term? Do you think it's realistic to make it past Melissan at level 1? Only a few critters actually have regeneration in Ascension due to the now-tolerated-as-balanced-albeit-unintended bug, so the only damage output-related bottleneck I can think of is the Slayer in Hell, which I assume can be waited out and then killed with INT drain during Time Stop (a WoL Limited Wish scroll could probably do this just fine) after all the PFMW spells are gone. A single-classed mage has no source of item-based immunity to charm (unless the Staff of the Magi does that?), which leaves only instant death effects, Maze, and stat drain. Cloudkill or the Death Spell or PW: Kill would be an instant game over (and PW: Stun would be very annoying as well), but vorpal effects in SCS and Ascension are supposed to be with-saves only, and Hell can grant +10 to all saving throws (plus another 7 from Gaxx+SotM+Cloak of Protection+Seldarine), guaranteeing successful saves against basically anything.

    You'd never be able to kill a Fallen Solar unless maybe you used Ravager form, and a 1-HP character wouldn't be able to sustain that form indefinitely like others could. Do you need to kill the Fallen Solars to beat the game, or can you activate the pools while the Fallen Solars are still hassling you? They're immune to imprisonment, after all, and immunity to +3 weapons and below means no INT drain kills even with a modded version of Enchanted Weapon (you're stuck at 131 damage per round even fully buffed, and I'm not sure that's enough for two whole Fallen Solars). Could Balthazar take them down before they could heal themselves indefinitely?

    It seems implausible, but I'm actually having trouble thinking of a specific obstacle an invincible level 1 mage could not overcome, besides Fallen Solars. I don't remember seeing any Deathblow-style effects on any ToB enemy weapons, and this build can win any war of attrition provided the enemy doesn't have unlimited healing or regeneration.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Also, I can't help but notice that this 1-HP mage is easily the most powerful character build I've ever seen. Immunity to damage is just... stupid. It breaks everything, and even being a lousy level 1 mage isn't big enough of a handicap to outweigh that. This is the easiest BG1 run I've ever played.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,456
    edited August 2019
    semiticgod wrote: »
    How viable do you guys think this build will really be long-term?

    I don't know the answer to that, but I was certainly thinking of the challenge as seeing how far this specific build could go, rather than converting to a 'normal' character in BG2.

    My suspicion is that the build is not quite as good as you suggest. There are a number of enemies in the game with regeneration or unlimited attacks that could disable you and lead to a stalemate situation. You mentioned maze just in passing - that's one of the main threats in a normal game and that will continue to be the case. Other spells though become far more of a threat as a result of poorer saving throws/levels/HPs, which will require more care to be taken with encounters that would normally be simple.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,456
    There were a couple of other minor glitches in my installation I noted, so I've reinstalled again and (so far) everything seems to be working as expected. I also decided to change my starting character to a wild mage. I know that is likely to cause problems later on, but it seems more thematically appropriate to this challenge ;).
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Grond0: Good choice. How bad is Maze exactly? The only reliable source of it that I know of is Abazigal, and any class that can use the Wand of Lightning can duplicate the Book of Daily spell to get unlimited copies of any version, including the Spell Turning page. There's a 10% chance that you'll just land on Burning Hands right off the bat, but if you get anything else, you'll get 6 copies of a different page, and you can multiple them indefinitely. Unless you hit that 10% chance, the WoL gives you potentially infinite castings of Spell Turning, Wyvern Call, True Seeing, and Farsight.

    Once you take down Chateau Irenicus, you have a free Wand of Lightning and every scroll gets multiplied by 6. Cast Protection from Petrification and wear down Taquee for the Efreeti Bottle, and suddenly you can summon 5 (or 6, if the summoning cap is disabled) Efreet with instant-casting 20d8 Flamestrike and 20d6 Flame Arrow spells, as well as free Invisibility spells. Roast a few critters here and there, recharge the Wand of Cloudkill, and you can kill absolutely anything from all the way across the map (as long as you make sure to never even get close to the clouds). You can also summon monsters anywhere on the map, and therefore lure enemies away from key places even if you can't kill them.

    That will be more than enough to take down the Shadows Thieves, and once you kill Perth the Adept by abusing the doorway and get that 90% chance, you have infinite Farsight spells, which you can combine with your infinite Fireball spells to nuke anything from anywhere--you don't need to engage enemies at all as long as the last target of the Wand of Lightning is something within view; the first 5 targets can be anywhere on the map.

    Farsight and summons, as I think @histamiini has found, is enough to take down Spellhold Irenicus before the fight begins. Use a Potion of Magic Shielding to survive the Githyanki ambush, nuke City Sushi, and then go nuke the Kuo-toa and everything else at the Underdark exit (you'll want Spell Turning to avoid those Glabrezus' PW: Stun spells). If you got the Wand of Wonder earlier (which might require a Limited Wish Time Stop to run past the mind flayers entirely, if there's enough time), you can also petrify every non-demonic enemy in the Underdark, including the mind flayers and beholders. The Balor might warrant some scrolls, though.

    Then comes Bodhi, and you can cover Drizzt with a Protection from Undead scroll and the Rod of Resurrection while he does all the heavy lifting. Back at Suldannessellar, you throw some gold at the black dragon, have Rillifane kill everything else, and kite Irenicus (maybe with some Greenstone Amulet charges to block Chaos and such on the way). Then you buff with S: Abj, PFMW, and Spell Turning before killing the Slayer with INT drain during Time Stop (possibly aided with a Protection from Magic scroll on him) or with a WoL-boosted Pierce Magic scroll followed by a crapload of basic damage scrolls.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,456
    @semiticgod there are a number of casters who can use maze in addition to Abazigal. I agree spell turning is a potential counter to that, but I don't allow the use of most of the exploits you do - so no use of item duplication (or other abuses of the wand of lightning). That means protection resources will be limited. In addition any use of spells by a wild mage (whether mage type or not - it annoys me that Bhaal CLW can incur a wild surge for instance) will incur a chance of a wild surge. That means any use of a scroll is dangerous (I'm not sure about the Book of Daily Spells though - it depends on whether it uses copies of spells or custom effects as most items do). I also don't allow use of any healing items - so no rod of resurrection use on Drizzt.

    I think that all adds up to very limited chances of success, but that's fine by me ;).

    My first wild mage died on the final potentially dangerous area transition required before getting the Claw. This time I decided to compromise my principles and accept paying an exorbitant price for it early on - that was duly done by selling Drizzt's equipment, so I'll need to settle in for a long slog from here ...
  • histamiinihistamiini Member Posts: 1,473
    edited August 2019
    @semiticgod It's hard to see whole run before hand, there's bound to be situations that will surprise how difficult they could be with level 1 mage. Melissan for example gives -1 save penalty every hit for 12 seconds. She never does two GWW's in a row, but with one GWW and 6 apr she could potentially penalize your saves by 16. She hasn't got anything that could kill you against saves I don't think, but Solars could, and some other summoned critters like Succuby. Melissan has stun -4 for 3 rounds, so she potentially could stun loop you. Also I don't know how the level 1 mage will kill Melissan? Only Harm, trap and melee methods come to mind, none available with level 1 mage. Actually you can still sling Melissan, as the teleporting to closed pool still works, and use Rift Device to cut the work by 60%.

    I plan to level the sorcerer after I've passed Bel. Also I've noticed that the 1 hp immunity doesn't really change from normal Sorcerer play, I still use the same tactics against everyone, because they're the easiest and fastest, and Sorcerer never hits anything anyway. Actually I think it's maybe even harder, because I have limited number of spells from scrolls. I need to hoard more scrolls, the same time as I need more money for Sandthief ring.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Grond0: You truly are a purist. No WoL trick is definitely going to make things much tougher in BG2; scrolls are very scarce considering how many you'd need to use to win a given fight. I'm guessing the Efreeti Bottle and Wand of Wonder would be primary resources, and many fights could take multiple rests. Good luck!

    The Book of Daily Spell should indeed trigger wild surges. The book uses the Cast Spell opcode, just like a scroll does; it doesn't use a list of duplicated opcodes like wands do.

    @histamiini: Good point. Tanking Melissan is definitely incredibly dangerous. Fortunately, her darts don't impose save penalties, so you can resist the stun effect on a failed save vs. spell at -2 and just run circles around her. That's a lot of time kiting, though... the Rift Device is definitely going to be important. It may still be possible to do it at level 1, but your base save vs. death at level 1 is only 14, and with the Hell bonuses and the right items, you can still guarantee successful saves against the Fallen Solars' vorpal arrows.

    The 1 HP mage's tactics aren't quite the same as a normal mage's in BG1. Most of your power does still come from scrolls (items in BG1 in general are the basis of high-end gameplay), but the immunity to damage does mean that most of your defensive options are no longer necessary. All you really have to do to stay alive is use the Greenstone Amulet every once in a while and keep the Ring of Free Action equipped most of the time. You no longer have to kite anything or run around to survive (though it does save time to avoid getting boxed in), and you can tank on behalf of your own summons, making them last longer. Tanking also lets you catch more enemies in the radius of a Wand of Fire.

    Thalantyr sells three Invisibility scrolls and you can get another Improved Invisibility scroll in Ulgoth's Beard, so those are cheap early game options for looting places like the flesh golem cave and Ulcaster Ruins when you don't yet have the Ring of Invisibility. You might actually be able to loot the flesh golem cave safely without invisibility--I know you can make your escape without invisibility, but I don't know if you can run into the cave without invisibility and still get out without getting boxed in by all the hobgoblins and such.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Also, it looks like Belhifet might only take about 70 rounds to kill if you're using Emotion and Enchanted Weapon scrolls and have 25 STR. Without Enchanted Weapon, it could take 100.

    Without that 25 STR at all, it could take upwards of 400 rounds. When you're working against a regeneration rate of 2 HP per round, even a slight bump upwards can dramatically improve your net damage per round. If worst comes to worst, you can always buy 50 rounds of safety for each Potion of Clarity (and Potion of Freedom, if you're ditching the Ring of Free Action in favor of the Chant Ring).
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