Well... if you do not use healing @Grond0... thats your problem! *G*
I also changed the phrase to "at least one enemy is in vision" and as i would count the bat as an enemy burning them - and most likely - Sarevok would be fine even though this might be indeed a bit odd. If you - or someone else - has another idea or a better formulation for this one: Your chance! ;o)
Non doubt we all want Cataclysm to be a tremendous challenge that gets rid of obvious shortcuts and that forces players to come up with new, creative solutions. But we also want the challenge to remain accessible to as wide a range of classes and play-styles as possible, no?
To that end I'd like all curses to be designed in ways that don't single out certain kits or classes. I think it's fine if one curse affects some classes a bit more than others, but clearly discriminating against certain classes/kits basically forces them to lift that single curse, and I doubt that's a desirable outcome.
The new Mask curse is an example. What about Mask and thieves? Dealing with enemies that aren't in vision is pretty much a Bounty Hunter's business model, and that of other trap-setting thieves as well. And it's not just traps, Thieves are meant to play "dirty", they like throwing explosives at unsuspecting enemies. A thief who shows himself to his targets is a poor thief.
Another example that comes to mind is Sune's curse, which was basically introduced to prevent Algernon's/Nymph Cloak spamming. However instead of banning the use of items that can charm creatures, it bans all charming. This removes a huge part of the Enchanter's, well, charm. And this doesn't just concern the Enchanter, Shamans might be interested in Call Woodland Beings or Charm Human/Mammal, as @Grond0 mentioned recently.
In sum I'd be in favor of curses discriminate as little as possible against specific classes, and that don't require too many exceptions.
Finally I'd like to note that the different curses have to be viewed in conjunction with each other. It's Mask and Sune and Ilmater and Waukeen and etc. We started with ten curses I think, and we're now at seventeen and counting. I think we should be careful not to shut too many doors, or perhaps we should allow players to lift more curses in the course of the saga, like @alice_ashpool suggested earlier. As it stands a single-class Wizard Slayer is the only kit with virtually zero chance of success, which is a bit of a shame, but it would be even sadder in my opinion, if more classes/kits ended up like the Wizard Slayer.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't want to be the party pooper. I'm just giving you my perspective. I love this challenge. I think I still identify quite a lot with my characters rather than seeing them as instruments used by me, which is why I was never very interested in certain restrictions like poverty ("why should my character not use that cloak he just found? he'd be stupid). But these curses from the Gods work great for me. So again, thanks to @Harpagornis and the others!
Yeah... i agree that all those curses and their cross effects are getting trickier the more we get @Blackraven! So lets - for the moment - remove Mask until a better solution has been found. I dont want to bash to many heads even though the charm of putting in more curse is sometimes too fascinating for me. ;o)
What would a better solution for Sune be? Just no charm and domination items while still allowing spells? Sounds like a compromise, no?
Maybe we should stick to about 16+1 curses and try to finetune the remaining ones. Still some work to do!
Interesting thoughts everyone, having just wasted Davetheon with out of LoS fireballs I think its interesting but afaik for a stealth char all it would mean would be stealth -> move forward -> gain LoS, unleash -> step back -> re-stealth. The Guards don't seem to follow once they have clustered. I am unsure if, even without stealth, the guards would not break from the blob?
Anyway, I resurrected Anastasia the Monk (v3), non-cataclysm and am at Slythe fight.
3 deaths which is a pb for LoB+SCS. 1st a mistake at Davetheon got me chromatic orbed. 2nd, and this is interesting, I was trying out a different strat to kill the Durlag golems using the traps while invisible and had:
100LR (Talos Gift + green Scroll)
100PR (green scroll)
127FR (Icingdeath, Ballita's passport + potion)
and yet the lighting still killed me! I reloaded and did it the same but + a potion of absorption and it was fine. Strange. Is there a difference between electric and magic electric damage?
3rd death was stupidly trying to kill a greater basilisk with mirrored eyes potion. PfP and they will keep using gaze, potion of mirrored eyes and they seem to switch to melee.
But, I am very pleased to have gotten to end game of BG with only 3 deaths, and it puts BG1 nR within reach!
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't want to be the party pooper. I'm just giving you my perspective. I love this challenge. I think I still identify quite a lot with my characters rather than seeing them as instruments used by me, which is why I was never very interested in certain restrictions like poverty ("why should my character not use that cloak he just found? he'd be stupid). But these curses from the Gods work great for me. So again, thanks to @Harpagornis and the others!
Perhaps it's time for me to offer a more detailed opinion on the Cataclysm, before the rules all get fixed and I've lost my chance. This post will be long, so apologies in advance! And before we start, I'd like to thank and congratulate everyone for coming up with another new way to refresh the game. Even if I'm not 100% sold, I'm still grateful for everyone's efforts... and look forward to joining in soon.
Let's first look at the enemies list.
"Charname is afflicted with Bhaal´s curse, meaning they have to defeat the following enemies. In each part one enemy can be skipped while one more can be skipped freely among the rest.
- Kahrk (BGEE)
- Karoug (BGEE)
- Demon Knight (BGEE)
- Aec´Letec (BGEE)
- Coldhearth (SoD)
- Morentherene (SoD)
- Neothelid (SoD)
- Shadow Aspect (SoD)
- Firkraag (SoA)
- Planar Warden (SoA)
- Unseeing Eye (SoA)
- Kangaxx (SoA)
- Layene (SoA)
- Saladrex (ToB)
- Demogorgon (ToB)"
This seems about right. The additional skippable enemy from any section is what swings it. Personally, I'd remove the Planar Warden - not because it's too tough, but because it's not tough enough by the end of BG2! Also, I can't think of any character who could defeat the demogorgon, but not Saladrex, so it seems a bit redundant to include Saladrex, but ToB would be a bit sparse otherwise. How about including the ToB demilich?
"In addition Charname is afflicted with 15 divine curses out of the following 16. After each part he or she can change the curse once:"
I confess to feeling a little overwhelmed watching the number of curses rise from 10/11 to 12/13 to 15/16. It seems like a lot of hassle to keep track of them all, which is not what I'm after. I get that people want a challenge - and I'm not on-track to join for a while, so don't take what I say too seriously - but I feel it's important to try and keep things open to the less hardcore among us (or as un-hardcore as those who sign up for the LoB-SCS-Solo challenge can be, that is!). Changing the curses is definitely welcome.
Looking at each in turn:
Arvoreen: The inventory may be accessed during combat to use consumables but not to switch items
Fine. Simple enough and makes sense.
Chauntea: No XP farming unless Charname has gained 3.000.000 XP´s
I've already given my thoughts on this. Personally, I'd ban them ouright. Especially if curses can be changed, so this can be dropped in SoA, XP looped and then reinstated in ToB. But whatever, I probably wouldn't use them anyway.
Cyric: Potion- and spellbuffs with a duration of less than 2 hours may only be applied during combat
Suck it Fighter/Mages! Seems unfair that enemy mages can instantly prebuff and I can't, but it's equally unfair for me to pre-emptively Web them, so swings and roundabouts.
Gond: Jegg, Cromwell, and Cespenar can each upgrade just one item
I presume this is 1 item each? I might be tempted to forbid them from upgrading anything - paladins would definitely feel more attached to Carsomyr that way - but warriors would seriously lose out with that, so I understand the reluctance.
Ilmater: No containers of any kind. Items dropped on the ground are lost
Should a stipulation of 'No selling and then buying back at an appropriate moment' be added, otherwise it seems relatively straightforward to circumvent?
Leira: Charname cannot use or equip unidentified items
Only problem is that beating this challenge without metagaming is basically impossible, but we're now discriminating against some metagaming more than others. But I'm okay with that.
Lolth: No antidots or elixirs of health
Just take the Slow Poison special ability in BG, wear a periapt of protection against poison in BG2 and Bob's your uncle.
Malar: Except for Beast Masters only one summon spell can be active in combat
Ouch! I reckon I know what curse the casters will be disregarding!
Mystra: Each creature gains the saving throw fix
Avid does not like. I don't want to stymie my entire game just to solve an LoB coding error. We're absolutely 100% positive that this is a thing? Is this not the agenda for the next official patch?
Selune: Resting is only allowed in inns and cleared dungeon floors. In the wilderness it only works near houses
Good. Rest abuse rips off spontaneous casters and warriors. Not that I've ever abused it myself...!
Sune: Creatures cannot be charmed or dominated unless using an innate ability
Ouch! Maybe casters will be disregarding this curse instead.
Talos: Charname has to play with weather effects "on" and whenever they're damaged by lightning (Lightning Bolt, Call Lightning, Chain Lightning, Static Charge or Weather) he/she has to chose which of the following items are destroyed:
1. Three Potions that are no Healing Potions
OR
2. One magical item in the inventory
If Charname has neither of them nothing will happen. Multiple hits by rebounds will not cost more.
This is too fiddly for my liking. How come getting hit by a lightning bolt causes me to lose stuff, but my potions can surivive getting hit by a fireball? I know Talos is a vengeful god, but...
Tempus: Except for Wizard Slayers retreats from ambushes are only possible if
1. At least one enemy takes damage
2. Charname takes damage from a physical attack or gets hit by a spell/gaze
OR
3. Charname has to kill one enemy
Getting fiddly again. Can you choose to apply 1 & 2 or apply 3 Or do you choose to apply 1 or 2 or 3? My instinct is that this will be major hassle in BG1 and early BG2 before becoming a non-event.
Tymora: Random number of Hit Points on level up and no INT-buffing for scroll scribing
I always imagine that having random numbers of HP on level up will be disastrous, but I suspect it'll actually end up being okay. No INT-buffing for scroll scribing is good... introduce some risk into arcane casters' lives.
Tyr: No attacking or killing of innocents unless they can be provoked through dialogue
Since this doesn't stop pre-emptively Feebleminding neutrals that you would have otherwise provoked through dialogue, I can't see much use for this as written aside from stopping non-rogues from obtaining Algernon's cloak. Not that they could use it anyway since they must have taken Sune. Perhaps I'm missing something obvious?
Waukeen: Items can be recharged only once in shops
I haven't exploited this yet. I used to think it was completely unkosher, but I've changed my mind. I take back what I said about Malar and Sune... I bet everyone will be disregarding this curse in BG1.
Whew! When all's said and done, I stand by what I said earlier, but it doesn't look quite as bad as I first thought. Let's see if I'm so confident when I actually start doing the challenge!
Ilmater: No containers of any kind. Items dropped on the ground are lost
Should a stipulation of 'No selling and then buying back at an appropriate moment' be added, otherwise it seems relatively straightforward to circumvent?
I'm not sure about straightforward. There's the danger associated with extra travel, the difficulty of organizing yourself and the additional gold cost to consider. There are also situations where it's just impossible - anything you need at Balduran's Island for instance has to be carried there.
Mystra: Each creature gains the saving throw fix
Avid does not like. I don't want to stymie my entire game just to solve an LoB coding error. We're absolutely 100% positive that this is a thing? Is this not the agenda for the next official patch?
It's definitely a thing. I've got a trial version of 2.6, but hadn't tried LoB in that. However, a quick test just now appears to show they have fixed the bug. Playing with this curse could thus be good practice for the future ...
Tempus: Except for Wizard Slayers retreats from ambushes are only possible if
1. At least one enemy takes damage
2. Charname takes damage from a physical attack or gets hit by a spell/gaze
OR
3. Charname has to kill one enemy
Getting fiddly again. Can you choose to apply 1 & 2 or apply 3 Or do you choose to apply 1 or 2 or 3? My instinct is that this will be major hassle in BG1 and early BG2 before becoming a non-event.
3 is an alternative to 1+2
Tyr: No attacking or killing of innocents unless they can be provoked through dialogue
Since this doesn't stop pre-emptively Feebleminding neutrals that you would have otherwise provoked through dialogue, I can't see much use for this as written aside from stopping non-rogues from obtaining Algernon's cloak. Not that they could use it anyway since they must have taken Sune. Perhaps I'm missing something obvious?
I think you're mis-reading the intention. Perhaps the wording would be better something like "No attacking or killing of innocents unless they have already been provoked through dialogue". It is thus quite a significant curse throughout the games.
Waukeen: Items can be recharged only once in shops
I haven't exploited this yet. I used to think it was completely unkosher, but I've changed my mind. I take back what I said about Malar and Sune... I bet everyone will be disregarding this curse in BG1.
As you've gone through the list, you've said several times that everyone would be disregarding this or that curse - which does tend to indicate that the intention of having to make a genuine choice has been successfully realized . A lot depends on your gameplay style. You for instance don't seem to see much of a problem with Selune's curse. In my case, however, that one's a nightmare as I use resting a lot to heal damage taken. Conversely, I rarely make use of magical items and therefore the Waukeen curse is pretty much a non-issue for me ...
So lets - for the moment - remove Mask until a better solution has been found.
Yes, we can fine-tune what he have, and come up with new curses if we come across loopholes we'd like to get rid of.
Nice to read your thoughts @AvidGamerFan! @Grond0 has already addressed most of your doubts regarding some of the curses. I'd like to add that Talos is quite severe already, so if fireballs and other elemental damage spells are added, we'd probably have to loosen the terms of the curse: one potion instead of three?
Aernalf (5)
Aernalf met his doom in Baldur's Gate this morning. He'd already acquired some key items (Helm of Balduran, Nymph cloak,some potions), and even Gretek's Battle Axe of Mauletar, but when he left the Helm & Cloak, Wilf (the Maulers' Cleric) followed him and surprised him - and me - with a Cause Medium Wounds. I haven't really experimented with this spell, but I knew that according to its description, it's supposed to be a touch spell. Well, apparently that's not the case. Aernalf was throwing axes at Wilf, and while he may have been somewhat close when Wilf started his casting (throwing axes are slow), he had moved well away from from his foe before the casting was complete, and he wasn't even hasted.
The screenshot shows the distance between Aernalf and Wilf the moment the Berserker got hit by the spell.
Aernalf met his doom in Baldur's Gate this morning. He'd already acquired some key items (Helm of Balduran, Nymph cloak,some potions), and even Gretek's Battle Axe of Mauletar, but when he left the Helm & Cloak, Wilf (the Maulers' Cleric) followed him and surprised him - and me - with a Cause Medium Wounds. I haven't really experimented with this spell, but I knew that according to its description, it's supposed to be a touch spell. Well, apparently that's not the case. Aernalf was throwing axes at Wilf, and while he may have been somewhat close when Wilf started his casting (throwing axes are slow), he had moved well away from from his foe before the casting was complete, and he wasn't even hasted.
The screenshot shows the distance between Aernalf and Wilf the moment the Berserker got hit by the spell.
Tough luck @Blackraven. Some of the cleric spells that are almost a non-issue in the main game are pretty deadly with SCS/LoB. Apart from the cause wounds spells, I've died multiple times to holy smite/unholy blight.
By touch, the game means within touching distance when the spell starts and not when it's complete. It's the same sort of issue you get with maze - letting a mage get within touching distance of a solo character is dangerous, even if that's only for an instant ...
@Grond0, thanks for clarifying. Lesson learned. I'll have to be a lot more careful around clerics... I think I might roll one for my next character, as no one plays them it seems.
You mention Maze, and I do recall characters of yours fall to that. Are you aware of other arcane spells like that, which call for extreme caution?
@Blackraven if you've learnt your lesson already, you obviously have a far steeper learning curve than me . Maze is a significant problem for me later in BG2. For many characters, particularly shorties, saving throws are by then good enough against almost all status effects that offer a save (earthquake, succubus charm and the odd dragon fear effect are the only exceptions that come immediately to mind). You do need to be careful to keep HPs up to protect against things like PW: stun and PW: kill, but that comes pretty naturally to me. However, if things have been seeming relatively straight-forward, then it's easy (at least for me) to forget about the need to keep your distance from any mages. As some of them deliberately use invisibility or mislead in order to sneak into range to maze you, you need to be prepared in advance rather than just react to the situation.
I might be caught out by a maze when I'm paying half-attention to what's happening (as opposed to almost none). In that case I would probably be able to react fast enough to use a scroll of PfM on myself. The maze projectile hits you and starts an animation process that takes a while to actually send you into limbo - the dispel magic effect of the scroll halts this process, allowing you to survive if you're reasonably quick about activating the scroll.
There's an extra wrinkle here, in that that death shot requires several components of SCS working together.
First, Cause Medium Wounds doesn't exist in the unmodded BG series. There are just Cause Serious Wounds and Cause Critical Wounds at levels 4 and 5. And those spells don't deal their damage directly; they instead create a weapon that only lasts two or three rounds that the priest then has to attack with in melee. Running away from the cast would work for those spells.
So along comes SCS, importing Icewind Dale spells that handle this differently. The IWD Cause spells deal their damage directly, an exact mirror to the Cure spells.
Second, the standard Cause Medium Wounds spell deals 14 damage. In order to get as much as you saw, you need the SCS component that powers up Cure and Cause spells; 3d8+level for this third-level spell.
Finally ... well, the amount of damage there indicates that it was the absolute maximum possible. A level 15+ priest for 3d8+15 damage, and a perfect 24 roll on 3d8. Was your character severely fatigued or under some other negative luck effect, per chance? With average luck, that spell deals around 55 damage (including the LoB doubling), which is brutal but likely survivable.
Second, the standard Cause Medium Wounds spell deals 14 damage. In order to get as much as you saw, you need the SCS component that powers up Cure and Cause spells; 3d8+level for this third-level spell.
Yup, I installed this to power up the otherwise unimpressive cure wounds spells.
Wilf must have rolled a perfect 24 because Aernalf wasn't fatigued or affected by any other effects.
Noooo @Blackraven - what a pity! I remember dying in the same way some time ago so i always keep distance from Clerics even more with low HP! Your run looked fine until then... t.t.
Some words on the curses after getting a lot of feedback. I am willing to remove some of the weaker or weird ones to make the challenge more straightforward... but still not "too easy"!
Arvoreen: The inventory may be accessed during combat to use consumables but not to switch items
Looks okay so far and will have a constant effect on Charname
Chauntea: No XP farming unless Charname has gained 3.000.000 XP´s
Leaving the door open for some high level duals seems okay. Also a long term curse.
Cyric: Potion- and spellbuffs with a duration of less than 2 hours may only be applied during combat
Another long time curse that makes prebuffing a bit harder – looks fine after playing several chars.
Gond: Jegg, Cromwell, and Cespenar can each upgrade just one item
Some impact on mid-late game – looks fine for the moment
Ilmater: No containers of any kind. Items dropped on the ground are lost
Yeah, thats a brutal one but selling-buying some relevant stuff in shops is still possible Leira: Charname cannot use or equip unidentified items
This looks rather weak even though i like the idea - could be removed
Lolth: No antidots or elixirs of health
Right, the innate Slow Poison will counter this. Maybe we should change this into „no healing“ potions just for @Grond0
Malar: Except for Beast Masters only one summon spell can be active in combat
Another hard one but it looks perfectly fine. Summons are just too strong... says the summon lover
Mystra: Each creature gains the saving throw fix
If 2.6 fixes this Mystra will need to be revised
Selune: Resting is only allowed in inns and cleared dungeon floors. In the wilderness it only works near houses
Personally i like that one
Sune: Creatures cannot be charmed or dominated with items
Yeah, i updated this one so casters will have some more options. If someone absuses this a lot we might switch back again!
Talos: Charname has to play with weather effects "on" and whenever they're damaged by lightning (Lightning Bolt, Call Lightning, Chain Lightning, Static Charge or Weather) he/she has to chose which of the following items are destroyed:
1. Three Potions that are no Healing Potions
OR
2. One magical item in the inventory
If Charname has neither of them nothing will happen. Multiple hits by rebounds will not cost more.
Talos is just too long which is against my own rule too keep it short and simple. We could change that to: Whenever Charname is damaged by elemental spells or traps one potion is destroyed.
Tempus: Except for Wizard Slayers retreats from ambushes are only possible if
1. At least one enemy takes damage
2. Charname takes damage from a physical attack or gets hit by a spell/gaze
OR
3. Charname has to kill one enemy
I like the idea a lot as it makes ambushes in the early game more deadly but thats the problem... it only really effects the early game while later on it gets quite boring and repetetive. Ideas on this one are welcome. Maybe including boss fights?
Tymora: Random number of Hit Points on level up and no INT-buffing for scroll scribing
Varies from nearly no effect to hurting a lot if the dices roll against you... still like it
Tyr: No attacking or killing of innocents unless they have been provoked through dialogue
Changed the formulation to make it clearer... first throw words at them and if they attack you are free to do whatever you like.
Waukeen: Items can be recharged only once in shops
Looks at the right place for the moment
Removing two or three of curses looks okay while i would like to take a look at the gamechanging PfM and PfU scrolls. I think Myrkul would love this one...
Myrkul: Charname cannot use any Protection from Undead scrolls
Yeah, i know that now the crying will begin... thats intentional. Is there a smart way to regulate this one down without killing too many classes? Ideas like always are welcome!
I am sorry for all those changes... but building a challenge with so many extra rules this looks like a normal thing to me. I know that i am sometimes a bit too much of a kid toying around with too many things...
Tempus: No retreat from any combat area until at least one combatant drops down to half health. Charname may also flee after saving three times against spell effects or gazes
This would not only take into account ambushes. Its much simpler but more brutal while also picking up an old idea of @Blackraven regarding "desperate retreats". What do you think?
@Harpagornis, yes I was also a bit saddened (though mostly just surprised) by Aernalf's downfall. The good thing is, we're now back at the drawing board, a good place. Hope and promise aplenty over here.
Good input, @Harpagornis, I'd like to say the following.
- The innate slow poison does ameliorate the ban on antidotes and elixirs of health, but some poisons are very aggressive, i.e. fast-ticking, and hasted characters suffer poison damage at double the rate, so casting can quite easily be interrupted in certain cases.
- Wouldn't Myrkul's curse turn places like the SoD opening dungeon into hell for certain classes? Maybe invisibility + speed will get you past the hordes of undead, including the bone bats that will follow you?
- Tempus / half health will be coin tosses at lower levels, where no character can take more than a few hits. Surviving one is often quite a feat. "Desperate retreats" might work if "desperate" could be defined.
With regard to Myrkul:
I tested the SoD starting dungeon with a plain Fighter and at the end it was not that hard even though a little bit of luck may be required. You can easily lure the Bone Bats (and the rest of the pack) to the Flaming Fist Soldiers and when they aggro you can sneak by running down all the way to Korlasz. Even though some of them might follow shortly they will abort their hunt returning to the others. The only tricky part is to find a path through the group and the small corridor. To avoid this you have to run through them as soon as the Flaming Fist engage while the undead are still streaming in. If you wait too long they will block the path and then it will be a battle of endurance. This worked seven out of eight times with Oil of Speed only. One time the Bone Bats followed me while the rest was attacking the Flaming Fist but even they stopped the hunt once i broke vision and kept running. Another time even though i got surrounded and both bats attacked i just had to wait until the skels started moving again (for whatever reason) and i could slip through again.
EDIT: Its far easier. Speed up, get invisible & just run through the Bone Bat group as they will stop the hunt after some time if you hide in the room with the door mechanism.
So the SoD starting dungeon is not the real problem while some fights in SoA might get significantly harder so what about allowing just one use througout the whole saga? I know @histamiini will now say that it should be one use per part... *G*
Yeah, whats the defintion of desperate retreat? Any ideas on that one? Would be really cool if we find an easy simple solution for this one!
Success! Davaeorn has fallen to the archer in the wizard slayer challenge! In fact, the solution was simpler than blasting him with Horror out of sight...
Entering the fourth floor while hidden, open the secret door, go back up the corridor out of sight and activate a scroll of protection from magic. Sneak back past the guard, through the traps (which won't affect you) and into Davaeorn's sight, beginning his guard summons countdown. The battle horrors will sense you and begin to move towards your position, but they won't follow beyond the initial 'sighting', so pull back to draw them into the intial guard's chamber, then dump them and move back into Davaeorn's chamber.
Now cast your first Mental Domination on Davaeorn. It will bounce off his minor spell turning, but as it is a level 4 spell, it will cancel it while you will be immune to the reflected charm. You'll also be immune to any of his spells and you can run away and Stealth out of sight to stop him from pursuing you. He'll chuck some Melf's Minute Meteors at you, so drink some healing potions in the meantime.
Wait for a while until all his guards arrive, then cast Curse out of sight into their midst. Not only will this lower their attack rolls, but you'll hopefully also catch Davaeorn and lower his saving throw. Then re-enter Stealth and approach Davaeorn from an angle that exposes you to minimal ranged attackers and fire off your second Mental Domination at Davaeorn, cross your fingers and pray that it connects. It has a -2 save penalty, so his LoB saving throw should be 7 (8 with Curse)... not great odds, admittedly, but not completely impossible. In my run, it worked first time, but your mileage will vary.
The blacktalon elites will be peppering you with arrows while you're casting, so wear boots of avoidance, ready your best armour (studded leather +1 can be found in the armoury on the previous level) and large shield. Admittedly, being an actual ranger would have been safer, so that I could use full plate mail, but I managed to scuttle out of sight with 2 HP and rejuvenate with Durlag's goblet. Vanish by Stealth again and you can sneakily watch Davaeorn.. which you'll probably have to do, as Davaeorn is still scripted to Dimension Door around!.
You'll only control him for 8 rounds, so don't mess around. Direct him into the biggest contingent of enemies you can find and watch him get slaughtered by his own guards! Once their boss is down, the summoned mercenaries disperse (but not the battle horrors or original guard) and you can loot the body in relative safety.
This isn't nearly as reliable an option as what a caster has available, but I'm pretty sure it's the best a non-caster can do in the Wizard Slayer challenge. I tried laying traps with a separate Fighter/Thief and letting a panicked Davaeorn wander into them, but his initial Stoneskin blocks nearly all of the damage. A shadowdancer might be able to painstakingly assassinate each summoned guard one by one, but it's not something I'm ever going to do. What gains a wizard slaying shadowdancer makes here, they'll lose in Avernus/Belhifet anyway, so I'm wouldn't put any eggs in that basket.
Yeah, the Mental Domination thing is what i always did with my Druids @AvidGamerFan. Summon in Nymphs, cast Farsight and let´s see if poor Davaeorn saves against five of them. Works most of the time. Oh, Shadowdancers have an easy time against Davaeorn if you have no problems shooting him out of stealth over and over again even though this will take some time due to his AC and protections. Too bad there seems to be no way around Big B for the moment... hhmmmm....
I managed to lose a Totemic Druid against Tarnesh forgetting that Level 3 Spirit Lions are not immune to fear so Tarnesh followed the Lion... got in vision and used this time window to cast Sleep so i had to watch how two Magic Missiles landed after coming back... GG.
Any opinions on Myrkul and toning down PfU scrolls?
@AvidGamerFan, congrats on your successful mission against Davaeorn, well-played! @Harpagornis, sorry about your Totemic Druid. I'd be very interested to see how a druid fares in this challenge. I've rolled an Avenger but will probably go with another Berserker first.
For Myrkul I'd be ok with a limitation on PfU scrolls, though perhaps one that's not too harsh... I'm already fearful enough of the Shade Lord...
@Harpagornis Maybe some limiting factor is in order for PfU's, but like with some other curses I wouldn't make it straight up ban, because it can make some stuff inaccessible. For example how is anyone going to get Amulet of Whispers from the Undead Cave? I think you should also be able to use it when Undead see through invisibility, like in Coldhearth's cave, because the cave was designed for you to use it I think.
No leaving from combat area will remove spell skipping, but otherwise I think it will make fighting unimmersive if you can't escape when you want. It will be very hard to define something like desperate retreat so that it doesn't feel bothersome in every fight.
It gets even better: I lost Karla the Shadowdancer6/Cleric in the Palace Ambush after silencing the casters failed. Messed up timing so magic protection expired when she landed a backstab giving the Mage time to fire Chromatic Orb... save failed... death!
Totemic Druids should have an easy time thanks to their powerful summons. Once the immunities of the spirits tick in they are almost unstoppable. Avenger looks pretty cool too even though the lower levels will be a bit harder. A Berserker/Druid looks like a decent choice too and should be able to deal with almost anything until Big B.
Yeah, i agree that banning PfU completly would be really painful. Getting the Amulet of Whispers is easy even without PfU @histamiini as you can use invisibility to lure the undead away from the chest and slip through them - just a matter of timing.
What about this one...
Myrkul: Protection from Undead scrolls may only be active when fighting lesser undead but not against bosses
Is this something everyone could live with? Has anyone beaten the Shadow Lord without PfU? ^^
Yeah, the ambush and no retreat from battle is tricky. I really like its impact on lower levels but later on its quite boring. If someone has an idea to improve this one... you are welcome!
Aaah nooo, I thought you had the Ducal Palace covered already with Algernon's cloak! Sorry about Karla..
Good progress with the Totemic though! Will you dual yours?
I just had a Berserker (to be dualled to Thief) petrified by a basilisk that attacked from the fog of war, and I mean the black fog of war, unexplored land....
But with Myrkul eager to curse us further, I guess a Berserker->Thief dual isn't the best option anyway. I think I'll roll one to dual into a caster.
Regarding your last proposal, what if there are lesser undead and a boss? Charnam would be allowed to kill the altar, Shadow Patrick, and some shadows, but would then have to retreat and rest to fight the Shade Lord without PfU?
Yeah, Ducal Palace was finished @Blackraven with my Shadowdancer6/Fighter. ;o)
Oh... yeah... i lost last week a char in the same way... petrifying gaze out of the dark... end of story...
Regarding Myrkul i am open for ideas... killing lesser undead while the big ones are untouchable as long as PfU is active could be an idea... or just one use per part... like mentioned earlier... what about the others?
Regarding ambushes, I'm surprised that others seem to take them so lightly - even later in BG1. Let's say that you're ambushed by something like a gibberling. That's a weak enemy, but still capable of doing 12 base damage - which on a critical and in LoB would hit for 48. That's enough to trouble plenty of characters that don't wear a helmet. Now imagine that it's an ambush by an ogre berserker - a hit from that can really hurt. When I was doing my shadowdancer run there were plenty of occasions where there was a theoretical possibility of death and I just had to hope for the best while turning the other cheek (and I died at least once in that manner).
Arcane users are not allowed to just travel invisibly and retreat from battle and can't rely on stoneskins or mirrors to avoid damage even if you have those available. The curse has now been amended so you can kill an enemy instead of letting it hurt you, but there are plenty of enemies where doing that is easier said than done - and if you're relying on use of magic items, continuing ambush battles would soon put a pinch on available resources.
It appears I'm missing something about tactics being used - what is it?
@Harpagornis Yeah there probably is some tactic against the Undead cave, it's so long I've played that without PfU. But if I recall some of the Undead there are invisible, which makes the situation tricky. Maybe ban PfU against single bosses, but when there's hordes of undead like with Coldheart allow it? Then you can't use them against Liches in SoA but could use against Shadow Lord?
@Grond0 For one I have never used the double damage, as SCS recommends not to use that. What problems I've had were mostly against Basilisk and Ghast ambush when you have to take a hit, which could end the run if you don't have anything that protects. Web ambush web can be escaped with taking actions before moving I think, at least against Ettercaps.
@Grond0: I agree that some classes will have more troubles than others regarding ambushes and when looking back i always played chars with helms so its good to get some words from the other side!
I always thought double damage is the default setting for this challenge @histamiini. *G*
The Web ambushes at least against the Ettercaps are no problem as long as you do not move to the west, the spiders however are another story. Okay, it looks there are no new suggestions handling ambushes so we could leave this curse unchanged, no?
I removed however "Talos" and "Leira" as the first felt far too odd while the other one had too little impact. Or is there any Leira lover who wants her back?
More feedback on "Myrkul" is welcome, so what about this:
Myrkul: Charname cannot attack undead bosses while under the effect of Protection from Undead
Or should we stick with @histamiini ´s idea of banning it only against single bosses?
EDIT: Another thing we should clarify....
We have stated that Charname may change his deity once per part lifting one curse. Does this mean i can change the curse anytime when moving for instance from SoD to SoA or will we be forced to pick the curse right at the start? Switching anytime once would give us far more flexibility... i like that one.. whats the opinion on this one?
@Harpagornis Yeah I like that it can be changed for every part, as it allows more fexibility and you don't have to bore yourself with some curse the whole saga. Or did you mean to change it middle of SoA for example? I would allow it to change once, at any point of SoA for example.
Regarding ambushes, I'm surprised that others seem to take them so lightly - even later in BG1.
Oh I don't take them lightly. If that seemed to be the case it's probably because I've been active with a Beastmaster with familiar and a couple of burly Berserkers. And even with them I've been at risk. It's often not just a single gibberling but several, and if you move to the exit and the first one misses, you'll soon be swarmed by all of them...
@histamiini, I only play with double damage in this particular challenge, but normally I avoid it too. It's quite brutal.
Maybe ambushes could be loosened up a tiny little bit by removing the need to take damage (if the enemy misses, you're free to go)? I think this is how some of you interpreted it at first.
@Harpagornis I thought we had to decide on the curse we lift at the beginning of each portion of the saga. That's how I've played so far, but leaving it up for the player to decide this in the course of the game is fine by me.
As for Myrkul, I tend to apply the same yardstick for all curses: does a curse hit certain classes unreasonably hard when compared to other classes? If so, then I'd be hesitant to adopt that curse. In this case, I couldn't tell how certain classes would fare against the Shade Lord, Kangaxx, etc.
having just lost a cataclysm run to a ghast ambush paralysis, following one to a basilisk ambush petrify I feel the "must take damage in an ambush" just raises the early game rng factor arbitrarily, nixing many nR runs before they get out the gate. Its neither a restriction nor a challenge because there is little you can do about it early game except take the hit and pray for a save or low damage, but it is a frequent run killer.
My thoughts would be that it be modified to be you either either take damage or deal damage. Since kiting a ghast around with throwing knives for 20 minutes to kill it, only to mess up and get hit when its near death is... well...
I thought I would see if find familiar as a starting pick is really necessary - i.e. can you get up to level 5, kill mulahey and then nimbul for the FF scroll without the bonus familair HP. The answer is yes, with the help of a spreadsheet... haha
Requires: The usual stuff, a blue PfP scroll, 120 throwing daggers, Korax, and a potion of speed to get max basilisk xp without an attacking familiar, and a precise route to Mulahey, but its not difficult. It was Nimbul who was hardest - far more so than Mulahey. I had not killed him on CATACLYSM yet, since it seemed too difficult for to little reward, however...:
My new strategy for Nimbul consists of Web from out of LoS, timing blinds once you know he has failed his save then let the guards kill him after web expires - he never fires his prebuffs, or his emergency minor sequencer, and web doesn't aggro the guards or civilians, delicious cheese. This allows, with some prior work, a sorceress/DD not to need to take find familiar as a level 1 spell. Since Mulahey seems to have a web in his chest it is also not necessary to take web as a spell (yet).
Its a minor bonus but it would allow the DD: Shield, Blindness, Protection from Evil, Chromatic Orb/Magic Missile, Grease (without save fix its nice to have a lvl1 CC spell)/another pick at level 1, with minimal chance of death if doing nR.
For example no FF means it is easy to have Chromatic Orb and Blind by level 5 allows easy killing of both the South Beregost Ogrillon for the letter, and Hairtooth for the Gauntlets of Dex so there are some significant run advantages for unpatched saving throw LoB.
Comments
I also changed the phrase to "at least one enemy is in vision" and as i would count the bat as an enemy burning them - and most likely - Sarevok would be fine even though this might be indeed a bit odd. If you - or someone else - has another idea or a better formulation for this one: Your chance! ;o)
To that end I'd like all curses to be designed in ways that don't single out certain kits or classes. I think it's fine if one curse affects some classes a bit more than others, but clearly discriminating against certain classes/kits basically forces them to lift that single curse, and I doubt that's a desirable outcome.
The new Mask curse is an example. What about Mask and thieves? Dealing with enemies that aren't in vision is pretty much a Bounty Hunter's business model, and that of other trap-setting thieves as well. And it's not just traps, Thieves are meant to play "dirty", they like throwing explosives at unsuspecting enemies. A thief who shows himself to his targets is a poor thief.
Another example that comes to mind is Sune's curse, which was basically introduced to prevent Algernon's/Nymph Cloak spamming. However instead of banning the use of items that can charm creatures, it bans all charming. This removes a huge part of the Enchanter's, well, charm. And this doesn't just concern the Enchanter, Shamans might be interested in Call Woodland Beings or Charm Human/Mammal, as @Grond0 mentioned recently.
In sum I'd be in favor of curses discriminate as little as possible against specific classes, and that don't require too many exceptions.
Finally I'd like to note that the different curses have to be viewed in conjunction with each other. It's Mask and Sune and Ilmater and Waukeen and etc. We started with ten curses I think, and we're now at seventeen and counting. I think we should be careful not to shut too many doors, or perhaps we should allow players to lift more curses in the course of the saga, like @alice_ashpool suggested earlier. As it stands a single-class Wizard Slayer is the only kit with virtually zero chance of success, which is a bit of a shame, but it would be even sadder in my opinion, if more classes/kits ended up like the Wizard Slayer.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't want to be the party pooper. I'm just giving you my perspective. I love this challenge. I think I still identify quite a lot with my characters rather than seeing them as instruments used by me, which is why I was never very interested in certain restrictions like poverty ("why should my character not use that cloak he just found? he'd be stupid). But these curses from the Gods work great for me. So again, thanks to @Harpagornis and the others!
What would a better solution for Sune be? Just no charm and domination items while still allowing spells? Sounds like a compromise, no?
Maybe we should stick to about 16+1 curses and try to finetune the remaining ones. Still some work to do!
Anyway, I resurrected Anastasia the Monk (v3), non-cataclysm and am at Slythe fight.
3 deaths which is a pb for LoB+SCS. 1st a mistake at Davetheon got me chromatic orbed. 2nd, and this is interesting, I was trying out a different strat to kill the Durlag golems using the traps while invisible and had:
100LR (Talos Gift + green Scroll)
100PR (green scroll)
127FR (Icingdeath, Ballita's passport + potion)
and yet the lighting still killed me! I reloaded and did it the same but + a potion of absorption and it was fine. Strange. Is there a difference between electric and magic electric damage?
3rd death was stupidly trying to kill a greater basilisk with mirrored eyes potion. PfP and they will keep using gaze, potion of mirrored eyes and they seem to switch to melee.
But, I am very pleased to have gotten to end game of BG with only 3 deaths, and it puts BG1 nR within reach!
Perhaps it's time for me to offer a more detailed opinion on the Cataclysm, before the rules all get fixed and I've lost my chance. This post will be long, so apologies in advance! And before we start, I'd like to thank and congratulate everyone for coming up with another new way to refresh the game. Even if I'm not 100% sold, I'm still grateful for everyone's efforts... and look forward to joining in soon.
Let's first look at the enemies list.
- Kahrk (BGEE)
- Karoug (BGEE)
- Demon Knight (BGEE)
- Aec´Letec (BGEE)
- Coldhearth (SoD)
- Morentherene (SoD)
- Neothelid (SoD)
- Shadow Aspect (SoD)
- Firkraag (SoA)
- Planar Warden (SoA)
- Unseeing Eye (SoA)
- Kangaxx (SoA)
- Layene (SoA)
- Saladrex (ToB)
- Demogorgon (ToB)"
"In addition Charname is afflicted with 15 divine curses out of the following 16. After each part he or she can change the curse once:"
I confess to feeling a little overwhelmed watching the number of curses rise from 10/11 to 12/13 to 15/16. It seems like a lot of hassle to keep track of them all, which is not what I'm after. I get that people want a challenge - and I'm not on-track to join for a while, so don't take what I say too seriously - but I feel it's important to try and keep things open to the less hardcore among us (or as un-hardcore as those who sign up for the LoB-SCS-Solo challenge can be, that is!). Changing the curses is definitely welcome.
Looking at each in turn:
Fine. Simple enough and makes sense.
I've already given my thoughts on this. Personally, I'd ban them ouright. Especially if curses can be changed, so this can be dropped in SoA, XP looped and then reinstated in ToB. But whatever, I probably wouldn't use them anyway.
Suck it Fighter/Mages! Seems unfair that enemy mages can instantly prebuff and I can't, but it's equally unfair for me to pre-emptively Web them, so swings and roundabouts.
I presume this is 1 item each? I might be tempted to forbid them from upgrading anything - paladins would definitely feel more attached to Carsomyr that way - but warriors would seriously lose out with that, so I understand the reluctance.
Should a stipulation of 'No selling and then buying back at an appropriate moment' be added, otherwise it seems relatively straightforward to circumvent?
Only problem is that beating this challenge without metagaming is basically impossible, but we're now discriminating against some metagaming more than others. But I'm okay with that.
Just take the Slow Poison special ability in BG, wear a periapt of protection against poison in BG2 and Bob's your uncle.
Ouch! I reckon I know what curse the casters will be disregarding!
Avid does not like. I don't want to stymie my entire game just to solve an LoB coding error. We're absolutely 100% positive that this is a thing? Is this not the agenda for the next official patch?
Good. Rest abuse rips off spontaneous casters and warriors. Not that I've ever abused it myself...!
Ouch! Maybe casters will be disregarding this curse instead.
1. Three Potions that are no Healing Potions
OR
2. One magical item in the inventory
If Charname has neither of them nothing will happen. Multiple hits by rebounds will not cost more.
This is too fiddly for my liking. How come getting hit by a lightning bolt causes me to lose stuff, but my potions can surivive getting hit by a fireball? I know Talos is a vengeful god, but...
1. At least one enemy takes damage
2. Charname takes damage from a physical attack or gets hit by a spell/gaze
OR
3. Charname has to kill one enemy
Getting fiddly again. Can you choose to apply 1 & 2 or apply 3 Or do you choose to apply 1 or 2 or 3? My instinct is that this will be major hassle in BG1 and early BG2 before becoming a non-event.
I always imagine that having random numbers of HP on level up will be disastrous, but I suspect it'll actually end up being okay. No INT-buffing for scroll scribing is good... introduce some risk into arcane casters' lives.
Since this doesn't stop pre-emptively Feebleminding neutrals that you would have otherwise provoked through dialogue, I can't see much use for this as written aside from stopping non-rogues from obtaining Algernon's cloak. Not that they could use it anyway since they must have taken Sune. Perhaps I'm missing something obvious?
I haven't exploited this yet. I used to think it was completely unkosher, but I've changed my mind. I take back what I said about Malar and Sune... I bet everyone will be disregarding this curse in BG1.
Whew! When all's said and done, I stand by what I said earlier, but it doesn't look quite as bad as I first thought. Let's see if I'm so confident when I actually start doing the challenge!
It's definitely a thing. I've got a trial version of 2.6, but hadn't tried LoB in that. However, a quick test just now appears to show they have fixed the bug. Playing with this curse could thus be good practice for the future ...
3 is an alternative to 1+2
I think you're mis-reading the intention. Perhaps the wording would be better something like "No attacking or killing of innocents unless they have already been provoked through dialogue". It is thus quite a significant curse throughout the games.
As you've gone through the list, you've said several times that everyone would be disregarding this or that curse - which does tend to indicate that the intention of having to make a genuine choice has been successfully realized
That would be fairer imo, yes. Charm/domination from spells isn't nearly as powerful as from the cloaks anyway.
Yes, we can fine-tune what he have, and come up with new curses if we come across loopholes we'd like to get rid of.
Nice to read your thoughts @AvidGamerFan! @Grond0 has already addressed most of your doubts regarding some of the curses. I'd like to add that Talos is quite severe already, so if fireballs and other elemental damage spells are added, we'd probably have to loosen the terms of the curse: one potion instead of three?
Aernalf (5)
Aernalf met his doom in Baldur's Gate this morning. He'd already acquired some key items (Helm of Balduran, Nymph cloak,some potions), and even Gretek's Battle Axe of Mauletar, but when he left the Helm & Cloak, Wilf (the Maulers' Cleric) followed him and surprised him - and me - with a Cause Medium Wounds. I haven't really experimented with this spell, but I knew that according to its description, it's supposed to be a touch spell. Well, apparently that's not the case. Aernalf was throwing axes at Wilf, and while he may have been somewhat close when Wilf started his casting (throwing axes are slow), he had moved well away from from his foe before the casting was complete, and he wasn't even hasted.
The screenshot shows the distance between Aernalf and Wilf the moment the Berserker got hit by the spell.
Tough luck @Blackraven. Some of the cleric spells that are almost a non-issue in the main game are pretty deadly with SCS/LoB. Apart from the cause wounds spells, I've died multiple times to holy smite/unholy blight.
By touch, the game means within touching distance when the spell starts and not when it's complete. It's the same sort of issue you get with maze - letting a mage get within touching distance of a solo character is dangerous, even if that's only for an instant ...
You mention Maze, and I do recall characters of yours fall to that. Are you aware of other arcane spells like that, which call for extreme caution?
I might be caught out by a maze when I'm paying half-attention to what's happening (as opposed to almost none). In that case I would probably be able to react fast enough to use a scroll of PfM on myself. The maze projectile hits you and starts an animation process that takes a while to actually send you into limbo - the dispel magic effect of the scroll halts this process, allowing you to survive if you're reasonably quick about activating the scroll.
First, Cause Medium Wounds doesn't exist in the unmodded BG series. There are just Cause Serious Wounds and Cause Critical Wounds at levels 4 and 5. And those spells don't deal their damage directly; they instead create a weapon that only lasts two or three rounds that the priest then has to attack with in melee. Running away from the cast would work for those spells.
So along comes SCS, importing Icewind Dale spells that handle this differently. The IWD Cause spells deal their damage directly, an exact mirror to the Cure spells.
Second, the standard Cause Medium Wounds spell deals 14 damage. In order to get as much as you saw, you need the SCS component that powers up Cure and Cause spells; 3d8+level for this third-level spell.
Finally ... well, the amount of damage there indicates that it was the absolute maximum possible. A level 15+ priest for 3d8+15 damage, and a perfect 24 roll on 3d8. Was your character severely fatigued or under some other negative luck effect, per chance? With average luck, that spell deals around 55 damage (including the LoB doubling), which is brutal but likely survivable.
Yup, I installed this to power up the otherwise unimpressive cure wounds spells.
Wilf must have rolled a perfect 24 because Aernalf wasn't fatigued or affected by any other effects.
Some words on the curses after getting a lot of feedback. I am willing to remove some of the weaker or weird ones to make the challenge more straightforward... but still not "too easy"!
Arvoreen: The inventory may be accessed during combat to use consumables but not to switch items
Looks okay so far and will have a constant effect on Charname
Chauntea: No XP farming unless Charname has gained 3.000.000 XP´s
Leaving the door open for some high level duals seems okay. Also a long term curse.
Cyric: Potion- and spellbuffs with a duration of less than 2 hours may only be applied during combat
Another long time curse that makes prebuffing a bit harder – looks fine after playing several chars.
Gond: Jegg, Cromwell, and Cespenar can each upgrade just one item
Some impact on mid-late game – looks fine for the moment
Ilmater: No containers of any kind. Items dropped on the ground are lost
Yeah, thats a brutal one but selling-buying some relevant stuff in shops is still possible
Leira: Charname cannot use or equip unidentified items
This looks rather weak even though i like the idea - could be removed
Lolth: No antidots or elixirs of health
Right, the innate Slow Poison will counter this. Maybe we should change this into „no healing“ potions just for @Grond0
Malar: Except for Beast Masters only one summon spell can be active in combat
Another hard one but it looks perfectly fine. Summons are just too strong... says the summon lover
Mystra: Each creature gains the saving throw fix
If 2.6 fixes this Mystra will need to be revised
Selune: Resting is only allowed in inns and cleared dungeon floors. In the wilderness it only works near houses
Personally i like that one
Sune: Creatures cannot be charmed or dominated with items
Yeah, i updated this one so casters will have some more options. If someone absuses this a lot we might switch back again!
Talos: Charname has to play with weather effects "on" and whenever they're damaged by lightning (Lightning Bolt, Call Lightning, Chain Lightning, Static Charge or Weather) he/she has to chose which of the following items are destroyed:
1. Three Potions that are no Healing Potions
OR
2. One magical item in the inventory
If Charname has neither of them nothing will happen. Multiple hits by rebounds will not cost more.
Talos is just too long which is against my own rule too keep it short and simple. We could change that to: Whenever Charname is damaged by elemental spells or traps one potion is destroyed.
Tempus: Except for Wizard Slayers retreats from ambushes are only possible if
1. At least one enemy takes damage
2. Charname takes damage from a physical attack or gets hit by a spell/gaze
OR
3. Charname has to kill one enemy
I like the idea a lot as it makes ambushes in the early game more deadly but thats the problem... it only really effects the early game while later on it gets quite boring and repetetive. Ideas on this one are welcome. Maybe including boss fights?
Tymora: Random number of Hit Points on level up and no INT-buffing for scroll scribing
Varies from nearly no effect to hurting a lot if the dices roll against you... still like it
Tyr: No attacking or killing of innocents unless they have been provoked through dialogue
Changed the formulation to make it clearer... first throw words at them and if they attack you are free to do whatever you like.
Waukeen: Items can be recharged only once in shops
Looks at the right place for the moment
Removing two or three of curses looks okay while i would like to take a look at the gamechanging PfM and PfU scrolls. I think Myrkul would love this one...
Myrkul: Charname cannot use any Protection from Undead scrolls
Yeah, i know that now the crying will begin... thats intentional. Is there a smart way to regulate this one down without killing too many classes? Ideas like always are welcome!
I am sorry for all those changes... but building a challenge with so many extra rules this looks like a normal thing to me. I know that i am sometimes a bit too much of a kid toying around with too many things...
Tempus: No retreat from any combat area until at least one combatant drops down to half health. Charname may also flee after saving three times against spell effects or gazes
This would not only take into account ambushes. Its much simpler but more brutal while also picking up an old idea of @Blackraven regarding "desperate retreats". What do you think?
Good input, @Harpagornis, I'd like to say the following.
- The innate slow poison does ameliorate the ban on antidotes and elixirs of health, but some poisons are very aggressive, i.e. fast-ticking, and hasted characters suffer poison damage at double the rate, so casting can quite easily be interrupted in certain cases.
- Wouldn't Myrkul's curse turn places like the SoD opening dungeon into hell for certain classes? Maybe invisibility + speed will get you past the hordes of undead, including the bone bats that will follow you?
- Tempus / half health will be coin tosses at lower levels, where no character can take more than a few hits. Surviving one is often quite a feat. "Desperate retreats" might work if "desperate" could be defined.
With regard to Myrkul:
I tested the SoD starting dungeon with a plain Fighter and at the end it was not that hard even though a little bit of luck may be required. You can easily lure the Bone Bats (and the rest of the pack) to the Flaming Fist Soldiers and when they aggro you can sneak by running down all the way to Korlasz. Even though some of them might follow shortly they will abort their hunt returning to the others. The only tricky part is to find a path through the group and the small corridor. To avoid this you have to run through them as soon as the Flaming Fist engage while the undead are still streaming in. If you wait too long they will block the path and then it will be a battle of endurance. This worked seven out of eight times with Oil of Speed only. One time the Bone Bats followed me while the rest was attacking the Flaming Fist but even they stopped the hunt once i broke vision and kept running. Another time even though i got surrounded and both bats attacked i just had to wait until the skels started moving again (for whatever reason) and i could slip through again.
EDIT: Its far easier. Speed up, get invisible & just run through the Bone Bat group as they will stop the hunt after some time if you hide in the room with the door mechanism.
So the SoD starting dungeon is not the real problem while some fights in SoA might get significantly harder so what about allowing just one use througout the whole saga? I know @histamiini will now say that it should be one use per part... *G*
Yeah, whats the defintion of desperate retreat? Any ideas on that one? Would be really cool if we find an easy simple solution for this one!
Entering the fourth floor while hidden, open the secret door, go back up the corridor out of sight and activate a scroll of protection from magic. Sneak back past the guard, through the traps (which won't affect you) and into Davaeorn's sight, beginning his guard summons countdown. The battle horrors will sense you and begin to move towards your position, but they won't follow beyond the initial 'sighting', so pull back to draw them into the intial guard's chamber, then dump them and move back into Davaeorn's chamber.
Now cast your first Mental Domination on Davaeorn. It will bounce off his minor spell turning, but as it is a level 4 spell, it will cancel it while you will be immune to the reflected charm. You'll also be immune to any of his spells and you can run away and Stealth out of sight to stop him from pursuing you. He'll chuck some Melf's Minute Meteors at you, so drink some healing potions in the meantime.
Wait for a while until all his guards arrive, then cast Curse out of sight into their midst. Not only will this lower their attack rolls, but you'll hopefully also catch Davaeorn and lower his saving throw. Then re-enter Stealth and approach Davaeorn from an angle that exposes you to minimal ranged attackers and fire off your second Mental Domination at Davaeorn, cross your fingers and pray that it connects. It has a -2 save penalty, so his LoB saving throw should be 7 (8 with Curse)... not great odds, admittedly, but not completely impossible. In my run, it worked first time, but your mileage will vary.
The blacktalon elites will be peppering you with arrows while you're casting, so wear boots of avoidance, ready your best armour (studded leather +1 can be found in the armoury on the previous level) and large shield. Admittedly, being an actual ranger would have been safer, so that I could use full plate mail, but I managed to scuttle out of sight with 2 HP and rejuvenate with Durlag's goblet. Vanish by Stealth again and you can sneakily watch Davaeorn.. which you'll probably have to do, as Davaeorn is still scripted to Dimension Door around!.
You'll only control him for 8 rounds, so don't mess around. Direct him into the biggest contingent of enemies you can find and watch him get slaughtered by his own guards! Once their boss is down, the summoned mercenaries disperse (but not the battle horrors or original guard) and you can loot the body in relative safety.
This isn't nearly as reliable an option as what a caster has available, but I'm pretty sure it's the best a non-caster can do in the Wizard Slayer challenge. I tried laying traps with a separate Fighter/Thief and letting a panicked Davaeorn wander into them, but his initial Stoneskin blocks nearly all of the damage. A shadowdancer might be able to painstakingly assassinate each summoned guard one by one, but it's not something I'm ever going to do. What gains a wizard slaying shadowdancer makes here, they'll lose in Avernus/Belhifet anyway, so I'm wouldn't put any eggs in that basket.
I managed to lose a Totemic Druid against Tarnesh forgetting that Level 3 Spirit Lions are not immune to fear so Tarnesh followed the Lion... got in vision and used this time window to cast Sleep so i had to watch how two Magic Missiles landed after coming back... GG.
Any opinions on Myrkul and toning down PfU scrolls?
@Harpagornis, sorry about your Totemic Druid. I'd be very interested to see how a druid fares in this challenge. I've rolled an Avenger but will probably go with another Berserker first.
For Myrkul I'd be ok with a limitation on PfU scrolls, though perhaps one that's not too harsh... I'm already fearful enough of the Shade Lord...
No leaving from combat area will remove spell skipping, but otherwise I think it will make fighting unimmersive if you can't escape when you want. It will be very hard to define something like desperate retreat so that it doesn't feel bothersome in every fight.
Totemic Druids should have an easy time thanks to their powerful summons. Once the immunities of the spirits tick in they are almost unstoppable. Avenger looks pretty cool too even though the lower levels will be a bit harder. A Berserker/Druid looks like a decent choice too and should be able to deal with almost anything until Big B.
Yeah, i agree that banning PfU completly would be really painful. Getting the Amulet of Whispers is easy even without PfU @histamiini as you can use invisibility to lure the undead away from the chest and slip through them - just a matter of timing.
What about this one...
Myrkul: Protection from Undead scrolls may only be active when fighting lesser undead but not against bosses
Is this something everyone could live with? Has anyone beaten the Shadow Lord without PfU? ^^
Yeah, the ambush and no retreat from battle is tricky. I really like its impact on lower levels but later on its quite boring. If someone has an idea to improve this one... you are welcome!
Good progress with the Totemic though! Will you dual yours?
I just had a Berserker (to be dualled to Thief) petrified by a basilisk that attacked from the fog of war, and I mean the black fog of war, unexplored land....
Regarding your last proposal, what if there are lesser undead and a boss? Charnam would be allowed to kill the altar, Shadow Patrick, and some shadows, but would then have to retreat and rest to fight the Shade Lord without PfU?
Oh... yeah... i lost last week a char in the same way... petrifying gaze out of the dark... end of story...
Regarding Myrkul i am open for ideas... killing lesser undead while the big ones are untouchable as long as PfU is active could be an idea... or just one use per part... like mentioned earlier... what about the others?
Arcane users are not allowed to just travel invisibly and retreat from battle and can't rely on stoneskins or mirrors to avoid damage even if you have those available. The curse has now been amended so you can kill an enemy instead of letting it hurt you, but there are plenty of enemies where doing that is easier said than done - and if you're relying on use of magic items, continuing ambush battles would soon put a pinch on available resources.
It appears I'm missing something about tactics being used - what is it?
@Grond0 For one I have never used the double damage, as SCS recommends not to use that. What problems I've had were mostly against Basilisk and Ghast ambush when you have to take a hit, which could end the run if you don't have anything that protects. Web ambush web can be escaped with taking actions before moving I think, at least against Ettercaps.
I always thought double damage is the default setting for this challenge @histamiini. *G*
The Web ambushes at least against the Ettercaps are no problem as long as you do not move to the west, the spiders however are another story. Okay, it looks there are no new suggestions handling ambushes so we could leave this curse unchanged, no?
I removed however "Talos" and "Leira" as the first felt far too odd while the other one had too little impact. Or is there any Leira lover who wants her back?
More feedback on "Myrkul" is welcome, so what about this:
Myrkul: Charname cannot attack undead bosses while under the effect of Protection from Undead
Or should we stick with @histamiini ´s idea of banning it only against single bosses?
EDIT: Another thing we should clarify....
We have stated that Charname may change his deity once per part lifting one curse. Does this mean i can change the curse anytime when moving for instance from SoD to SoA or will we be forced to pick the curse right at the start? Switching anytime once would give us far more flexibility... i like that one.. whats the opinion on this one?
Oh I don't take them lightly. If that seemed to be the case it's probably because I've been active with a Beastmaster with familiar and a couple of burly Berserkers. And even with them I've been at risk. It's often not just a single gibberling but several, and if you move to the exit and the first one misses, you'll soon be swarmed by all of them...
@histamiini, I only play with double damage in this particular challenge, but normally I avoid it too. It's quite brutal.
Maybe ambushes could be loosened up a tiny little bit by removing the need to take damage (if the enemy misses, you're free to go)? I think this is how some of you interpreted it at first.
@Harpagornis I thought we had to decide on the curse we lift at the beginning of each portion of the saga. That's how I've played so far, but leaving it up for the player to decide this in the course of the game is fine by me.
As for Myrkul, I tend to apply the same yardstick for all curses: does a curse hit certain classes unreasonably hard when compared to other classes? If so, then I'd be hesitant to adopt that curse. In this case, I couldn't tell how certain classes would fare against the Shade Lord, Kangaxx, etc.
My thoughts would be that it be modified to be you either either take damage or deal damage. Since kiting a ghast around with throwing knives for 20 minutes to kill it, only to mess up and get hit when its near death is... well...
I thought I would see if find familiar as a starting pick is really necessary - i.e. can you get up to level 5, kill mulahey and then nimbul for the FF scroll without the bonus familair HP. The answer is yes, with the help of a spreadsheet... haha
Requires: The usual stuff, a blue PfP scroll, 120 throwing daggers, Korax, and a potion of speed to get max basilisk xp without an attacking familiar, and a precise route to Mulahey, but its not difficult. It was Nimbul who was hardest - far more so than Mulahey. I had not killed him on CATACLYSM yet, since it seemed too difficult for to little reward, however...:
My new strategy for Nimbul consists of Web from out of LoS, timing blinds once you know he has failed his save then let the guards kill him after web expires - he never fires his prebuffs, or his emergency minor sequencer, and web doesn't aggro the guards or civilians, delicious cheese. This allows, with some prior work, a sorceress/DD not to need to take find familiar as a level 1 spell. Since Mulahey seems to have a web in his chest it is also not necessary to take web as a spell (yet).
Its a minor bonus but it would allow the DD: Shield, Blindness, Protection from Evil, Chromatic Orb/Magic Missile, Grease (without save fix its nice to have a lvl1 CC spell)/another pick at level 1, with minimal chance of death if doing nR.
For example no FF means it is easy to have Chromatic Orb and Blind by level 5 allows easy killing of both the South Beregost Ogrillon for the letter, and Hairtooth for the Gauntlets of Dex so there are some significant run advantages for unpatched saving throw LoB.