I got an idea regarding Talos but thats a really brutal one:
Talos: Spells, Scrolls and Potions cannot be used to protect against elemental attacks
If you have another - maybe more elegant way - to make elemental attacks more dangerous: Your chance!
Hmmm this would make us depend more on innate resistances (Cavalier, Druid, Dragon Disciple) and on items, but with Ilmater (no containers) and Mask (no gear switching in combat), such items will be in short supply. Do you not consider elemental damage extremely dangerous already because of enemies' higher levels and because of double damage? Just asking.
Nice job at the Bandit Camp btw. Shadowdancer dual is such a great class for this challenge!
Oh, and is everyone else ok with optional curse switching upon completion of each part of the saga?
The demon knight is immune to non-magic weapons, so the gnolls can't hit it. Neither can the dire wolves or hobgoblin elites; only the ogres have a chance among the wand summons.
Polymorph Other? Even if you could get past the 85% magic resistance and polymorph save of 6 (before LoB), he's flat out immune from the standard demon immunity item.
A wand of paralyzation could work - it's a low chance of success since it's subject to magic resistance, but it gives you ten rounds to bash the demon knight once it connects. You just have to survive until then.
I've hit a wall: Demon Knight. Not sure how to do this without physical damage. And the DD was going so well: Polymorph Other was cleaning up
Yes, a serious challenge for a single-class wizard. I never use it myself, but have you tried it with the mirror? If you can take out your own mirror fiend, then it could help to get the Demon Knight attacked by its own mirror fiend which presumably gets all LoB bonuses as well. A fully charged wand of monster summoning to get occasional crits from ogres and gnolls?
The mirror fiend will take it down to badly injured, which is great, since my "clone" is no big deal if you stay out of sight since she does not seem to move, or attack anything but me; however - after that its futile.
I thought I was smart by thinking I could 3 PfF scrolls on the mirror fiend then heal it with fire, but... of course the MR gets in the way for the Mirror Fiend, same as for the Demon Knight.
So what did I do, I abandoned CATACLYSM, but not the fight, oh no, I edited my spells, gave myself skull trap instead of remoe magic, cast 50 right where he moves to when the mirror is broken (free rests in the demon chamber lol), popped the mirror, reloaded 3 times until the stupid skulltrap rolls overcame MR enough and then watched the mirror knight kill him...
cheating...yeah, but now I know that the fight is doable, the only problem being the 10 rests required for 50 casts of skull trap is not quite "CATACLYSM" - althouuuuuugh, there arn't any hostiles in the demon chamber t'til you talk to the knight heh.
As an aside that is only the 2nd time I have fought this guy ever, so pretty pleased with my SCS + LoB cheese win. Just need to string it together in an actual "run" next time.
I've made a start with Wimp. Her familiar (with curse on it lifted) cleared most of the basilisks from Mutamin's area to help get her to level 5. Her own attacks are of course not exactly deadly . Here's an extremely lucky sequence when she hammered a hobgoblin with 4 critical hits from her sling in 7 attacks - doing a grand total of 6 damage ...
She's not been afraid to use spells, though learning new ones was a pain. Her initial attempts to get a few choice ones all failed and she resorted to transporting in some potions of genius from the FAI to High Hedge in order to get a selection from there. Making use of those, she has just killed the first of the battle horrors at Durlag's Tower with repeated applications of 10 magic missiles, 2 ice lances and the odd staff critical while using a strength spell.
At the moment though that's too inefficient - requiring a number of rests to overcome the 100 HP enemies get back when you rest in the same area. She'll look to get another level from the basilisks on the roof before trying any more battle horrors.
There have been relatively few surges so far and nothing dangerous to her - there was one petrification surge, but that was on the target (battle horror) and did nothing.
A wand of paralyzation could work - it's a low chance of success since it's subject to magic resistance, but it gives you ten rounds to bash the demon knight once it connects. You just have to survive until then.
Very helpful!
2nd Strategy - Aggro Demon Knight (with greenstone amulet protections on, I forgot to mention that bit), use wand of paralyzation until it procs, summon monsters and pray you get at least 1 ogre. You and the ogre(s) go to town. Repeat until dead, or, when it is low enough on health, break the mirror and get the mirror fiend to do the work for you (no xp this way though).
This worked first time though it took 30 charges from the WoP to proc only 2 stuns, which was enough with the mirror fiend to finish off the Demon Knight. An expensive battle, but one which worked on only 1 attempt.
Shouldn't have posted! A few minutes later I'd just killed the first basilisk and was casting invisibility to bypass a gnoll on the way to the upper roof - the resultant fireball did 2 more damage than Wimp had available ...
Loreth moved through the Cloakwood without problems thanks to Ring of Freedom.
She killed all the time at least one Ettercap or Spider to soak some XP and be able to retreat.
Lamalha´s party had no chance even though Loreth got hit by two arrows due to bad timing.
For Molkar´s party... the inventory already was crowded... she used Potion of Magic Shielding soaking up spells while also eating a Unholy Blight that hit for 18 damage cause stealth aura was not clear. After that it was easy stabbing.
Lured Drasus away from the Mages and stabbed first Genthore who followed him. As he nearly always tried to move back to get his axes throwing Loreth could easily restealth before any missile was in the air. Drasus intended to be funny this time drinking a Potion of Freedom which negates his speed bonus making the stabbing a nobrainer.
Going down to Davaeorn was no problem. He somehow managed to shoot an Acid Arrow through a wall at Loreth but this was negated by some healing potions in between the shooting. As Loreth got really unlucky rolling low numbers in a long row she wasted 152 bolts on the Mage before the evil one went down. Next time i will grab the Ring of Energy before...
Getting out of the Cloakwood some more ambushes but while Ettercaps got stabbed Loreth played the hit-and-get-hit-game against some Wyvern. Baldurs Gate will be next...
And yes @Blackraven: Shadowdancer duals are really powerful... if you get through the early game leveling and at least to some degree play around with stealth time manipulation. I try to minimize this but even then many enemies cannot counter it.
I also agree that the Talos idea would be overkill, maybe another idea will jump in tomorrow!
Been thinking about Sorc/DD spell picks for CATACLYSM. If anyone can see some glaring omissions, or something that would brick the build going on please let me know. Also I am intersted in hearing anyone else's Sorc/DD spell picks.
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Level 9 gives you 5, 4, 3, 2 and a max of 5 spells can be learned in total
SoD will raise that tho 5, 5, 4, 3, 2
Here's what I took by level 9, in order of taking L to R
1: Blindness, Find Familiar, PfP, Shield, Expedious Retreat
2: Invisibility, Mirror Image, Knock, Detect Invisibility
3: Monster Summoning 1, Haste, and as I now realize Skull Trap
4: Monster Summoning 2, Polymorph Other
I'm quite happy with this for BG1, the monster summoning really comes into its own in LoB since those are trash spells usually, however: they summon 1d6 monsters rather than a set number of hit dice making them unreliable and sometimes frustrating: nothing like only summoning one ogrillon when you wanted 2 ogres and 4 lizardmen. Also they will lose their utility in SoD... so it might be necessary to get through without them on run 2.
Polymorph other feels like the greatest of all time spell for LoB BG1 since there is a stack of 20 Greater Malison scrolls just there for the buying in Sorcerous Sundries. Bassilus: a squirrel, Karlat: a squirrel, everyone a 5HP squirrel. Sorceress would get 4 (4!) casts per rest, poor Sophia only gets 3, but enjoys 1d6HP/level and being almost immune to fire with Ring of FP as consolation.
The only one I would swap at the moment is Expedious Retreat for MM, if would make the game harder until Drasus, but hey.
Been thinking about Sorc/DD spell picks for CATACLYSM. If anyone can see some glaring omissions, or something that would brick the build going on please let me know. Also I am intersted in hearing anyone else's Sorc/DD spell picks.
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Level 9 gives you 5, 4, 3, 2 and a max of 5 spells can be learned in total
SoD will raise that tho 5, 5, 4, 3, 2
Here's what I took by level 9, in order of taking L to R
1: Blindness, Find Familiar, PfP, Shield, Expedious Retreat
2: Invisibility, Mirror Image, Knock, Detect Invisibility
3: Monster Summoning 1, Haste, and as I now realize Skull Trap
4: Monster Summoning 2, Polymorph Other
I'm quite happy with this for BG1, the monster summoning really comes into its own in LoB since those are trash spells usually, however: they summon 1d6 monsters rather than a set number of hit dice making them unreliable and sometimes frustrating: nothing like only summoning one ogrillon when you wanted 2 ogres and 4 lizardmen. Also they will lose their utility in SoD... so it might be necessary to get through without them on run 2.
Polymorph other feels like the greatest of all time spell for LoB BG1 since there is a stack of 20 Greater Malison scrolls just there for the buying in Sorcerous Sundries. Bassilus: a squirrel, Karlat: a squirrel, everyone a 5HP squirrel. Sorceress would get 4 (4!) casts per rest, poor Sophia only gets 3, but enjoys 1d6HP/level and being almost immune to fire with Ring of FP as consolation.
The only one I would swap at the moment is Expedious Retreat for MM, if would make the game harder until Drasus, but hey.
At first level I would never bother with PfP. Your familiar can safely scout out basilisks and, even if it is not allowed to attack, there are other ways to deal with the basilisk. I'd have magic missile instead - particularly in BG1 the high number of 1st level spells available means that can do a decent amount of damage.
At second level, mirror image would tend to be a late pick for me, if taken at all - on the grounds I should very rarely be in a position to be attacked and stoneskins are a better defense if I am attacked (unless you have some source for permanent luck). I would normally take web immediately after invisibility. This not only offers the opportunity to do additional damage, but also to cast disablers safely (web/blind is a great combination for things with dangerous distance attacks like basilisks and ankhegs).
At third, I agree summons are really powerful in LoB, so I might take that. However, the short duration is a bit of a problem. I would be more likely to take skull trap as a first spell. I quite often take MSD, though that's more important in a poverty run than this challenge.
At fourth I wouldn't take MS if I already had the 3rd level variant, given the host of good spells at that level. Stoneskin gives you a better chance of surviving slight mistakes (though obviously that's less of an issue if you're not playing no-reload), spirit armor gives you an improved saving throw and II adds to that as well as providing an alternative way to evade enemies. Fire shield blue offers one potential strategy against Belhifet. Malison gives your disablers much more chance of success, so that would be another early pick, but there are several others at L4 that look attractive to me. Polymorph other is relatively easy to save against (and you can do it by wand), so I wouldn't bother with that in this challenge (emotion is nearly as much of a death sentence at that level, is generally harder to save against and affects multiple targets; PO may affect slightly more enemies than that, but blind and feeblemind both affect even more).
I've played a number of characters recently in this challenge and think possibly the best alternative for me is the shaman. The shadowdancer dual is powerful, but does require a high level of concentration and a lot of precision - which probably came more naturally to me 30 or 40 years ago ). The spirit summons for the shaman are not normally the best option in the regular game. However, in this challenge where resting can be a problem and direct damage spells are nerfed, the dancing spirits are often a very strong option.
@alice_ashpool, I agree with @Grond0's points, especially re: PfP and 2x Monster Summoning.
I'd probably lift Waukeen's Curse and rely on rechargeable wands.
1: Blindness, FF, Shield, PfE
I picked PfE because I think DD is in an excellent position to optimize AC to the point where you won't get hit easily at all, leaving your Stoneskins, MIs etc in place for a longer time. Eventually you'll probably pick PfMW, but that lasts only 4 rounds and you won't be able to keep that up all the time. In your set-up with Mystra's curse lifted, Chromatic Orb might also be a worthy pick. I'd mainly want it for its slay effect once you reach caster level 12, though even the 2-turn paralyze effect at lvl 7 is pretty good.
2: Invisibility, Web, Blur, MI
I'd pass on Knock. Why? You'll have high strength eventually with Bhaal DUHM to bash locks, quest relevant locks can easily be forced, and with Ilmater's curse you won't be able to carry a lot of stuff around anyway. I added Blur for the same reason I added PfE.
3: Slow, Skull Trap, Haste
With loads of wand summons, I might try to do without spell summons, and wait for lvl 5 skeleton warriors. I'd probably take Slow instead because of the save penalty and 1/2 attack rate and -4 to enemy Thac0 and AC is really good.
4: Stoneskin, Malison.
Spirit Armor as mentioned by Grond0 is really good but I'd pass for the time being because Sorcerous Sundries sells I think 20 scrolls (at least in my install). Stoneskin for survivability and Malison for your Blindness, Web, Skull Trap, and wands to be more effective.
@Grond0, Shaman, interesting. You must have become good at positioning the Shaman. I found I really missed stealth with my Berserker, which made me think I probably do best with a stealthy character in BG1. Still I think I'll take another shot with the Berserker...
@Grond0, Shaman, interesting. You must have become good at positioning the Shaman. I found I really missed stealth with my Berserker, which made me think I probably do best with a stealthy character in BG1. Still I think I'll take another shot with the Berserker...
@Blackraven yeah, I've played them a lot. I see plenty of comments about how limited shamans are when dancing and that's absolutely understandable if people are not used to playing them. Like the rest of the game though, you appreciate what the risks and constraints are with experience and improve how you can work round those with practice ...
@alice_ashpool I see @Grond0 and @Blackraven already gave some input. It's somewhat personal preference, but here's still my preferred spell book for Sorcerer in this challenge. Although it's geared slightly more towards end game, but it allows pretty much all of the tactics. Everything you can cast from items I wouldn't bother using for spell slots, and spell summons before Skelis are pretty useless in LoB mode. Lv1 probably allows most variation, because there's hardly 5 useful spells in there. Also these are not in order.
Some notes:
- Oracle instead of True Sight, I still can cast two True Sights, from Gem of Seeing and possibly from Book of Infinite Spells. This exchange allows Pierce Magic instead Lower Resistance.
- Spell Trap can be cast from Staff of Magi, superior 8 hour version.
- Protection from Fire and Protection from Acid so I can cast Death Fog and Incendiary Cloud on myself.
- Invisibility 10' provides long Invisibility, Mislead escape and Mass Invisibility -4/-4 buffs.
- Permanent Shapechange exploit to Mind Flayer form from Limited Wish scroll.
- Sequencers, triggers and contingencies from SCS innate ability option.
- PfMW, Improved Mantle +4 and Absolute Immunity +5 provide practical weapon immunity up to 72 rounds.
- Spider Spawn is pretty useless in LoB, long casting Emotions are staple buff with Skelis. Consideration for Enchanted Weapon, so Mindflayer form hits +3 instead of +2.
- Black Blade of Disaster for Solars, because only Ogremoch needs Imprisonment in SCS+Ascension, which can be cast from scrolls. Possibly Shapechange if you don't want to use the previous exploit.
- No summon or damage spells from the same level, and trying to avoid similar spells in the book.
The town was indeed the easy part. Stabbing some Dopplegangers, killing the Ogre Mage with infamous Arrow even though she had no points in Bows (even then a 6 was enough to hit), stealthing in and out of the Iron Throne unseen, wile also getting some supplies and finally the precious Sharpshooter Crossbow.
The Candlekeep Ogre Mage ambush started easy: Stealth worked so Loreth repositioned to get in one shot at them (they even did not precast any buffs) but manipulating the stealth timer worked against her... stealth broke too early... and the Mages started casting forcing her to drink a Invisibility Potion... resposition and landing a 24 damage stab on her next attack.... restealth... talking to the guard... done.
Candlekeep Catacombs were quick business. Protection against Fire and Lightning, Mastery Thievery plus DoHM for the Tomes and the stealthing through enemy lines unseen only stopping to shoot one Greater Basilisk down who pushed Loreth to Level 8 -> 66 HP. Not that bad.
With 19 Str stabbing will get a lot easier now. Lets see whats up next...
The Gond curse really strikes more and more as the inventory gets easily crowded so Loreth is forced to sell and park some items in shops. She still has not chosen any deity mayb that will change soon.
Another idea for a curse which will hurt any non-Mages a bit more...
Leira: Charname cannot use or equip unidentified items
What do you think?
@histamiini: Is there a way to get the Gem of Seeing without recruiting Rasaad? ^^
Nice list @histamiini! I'd do a few things differently but you actually beat the challenge with that sorcerer so... :whistle: Haha. Not a single spell protection remover (other than Remove Magic). Did you never miss Ruby Ray or Warding Whip or something against mages?
@Harpagornis, good stuff! You're on course for the endgame, although Ducal Palace is such a bottleneck.
@Harpagornis I don't think so, you need to take Rasaad to City Gates to get the map update. And Neera you need to get through the camp door for items in there. I've tried a lot to circumvent these, but have since settled for allowing taking companions to only start their guest lines.
@Blackraven I usually use depletion tactic against mages, activate casting, then hide. That's why there's usually no need for dispels, because their protections eventually wear off. I think that's safer tactic in nR challenge. And because of that I actually have very little experience with Ruby Ray's and such.
Btw I would take Knock for Sorcerer, because although you get DUHM, you can't drink warrior potions so bashing is limited in BG without Violet Potion. And eventually you lose DUHM anyway, at which point Knock is valuable. Although as with some other spells, it's balance between how many items (scrolls) there is, and convinience. So it's personal preference still what you want to have.
Okay... i nearly pushed the limits too far... faced Denak... lured him away from the others to stab him down... while the sun was shining... bad idea... even though i managed to park him near a tree. Stealth failed sveral times and as i was too lazy drinking Magic Protection Potions Loreth had to eat three Acid Arrows while running out of healing potions.... yeah, lazy again buying new ones... after another stealth failure he summoned five monsters to help him while the third Acid Arrow was still ticking. Only a fine 35 damage stab saved her from running too low... she grabbed the ring and with the map border nearby she escaped with 16 HP. As i said before... once you get too strong the focus goes away and bad things start to happen...
@histamiini: You recruit companions to start their quest lines? Shame on you! *G*
Any opinions on the new curse idea of not allowing chars to use unidentified items? Other Ideas?
@histamiini, your reasoning makes sense. If you have the staying power, why bother with removal spells. @Harpagornis, ooh a narrow escape, that should be a good wake up call no?
Loreth took on Khark... badly prepared like always... burned the Ring of Energie from 19 to 1 charge... 9 shots from Fireball Necklace... and the rest just stabbing him with Aules Staff +3... stealth failed once using a Potion of Magic Absorbtion... soaked up Cone of Cold and Chromatic Orb after that three more hits and the big bad mage went down.
@histamiini: Well, well... you have to live with that... but i am still really disappointed... :P
Yeah, not allowing unidentified items is not that big.... hhhmmmm....
But what about Talos:
Talos: Charname has to play with weather effects "on" and can only use Talos's Gift to protect against lightning
@Harpagornis I like weather curse, but again I don't think I've ever been bothered with lightning. I actually had to check if I had weather on, and yes I have. Is there something else that controls the danger of weather?
Final Fight: Lured to top corner, angelo waited out while invisible, malisoned, paralyzed and beaten to pieces. WoMS and Monster Summoning 2 to kill Skele-Angelo, 100 fireballs from 5 unrecharged wands of fire into top corner. 3 Skeletons lured and parked in the bottom left corner with invisibility, Sarevok kited with recharged ring of energy, oil of speed+boots and WoMS to hold him up for a few seconds. 30 charges to kill. THe only issue was when I misclicked around fireball 70 and aggroed sarevok with no oil of speed up, and frantically kited him around and had spell disrupted trying to re-park. Clutch on the final invisibility cast, but did it no reload.
The big issue here was Mask imo, no changing gear.
Assassins: Slythe was malisoned, held up with monsters, them polymorphed into a squirrel - so satisfying after the difficulties with my monk doing this fight. Got it 2nd time as first time he chunked me, whoops.
Dukes: WoMS + Liia's Dispel Magic + greater malison + wand of paralysation from the stairs at the top. This seemed to confuse the dopples and they did all sorts of strange stuff. Also polymorphed one but the saves are pretty good even with Mystra + Malison due to all the buffs the mage + shaman seem to throw out. Waiting for the first WoMS to expire/die before summoning more for replacement was not all that big a deal. I even reloaded and did it again to see what was going on - same thing 2 for 2 successes. Got it first try and was so amazed I reloaded, so I guess thats 1 reload here.
Aec'Letec: What a mess: triggered dialogue arriving in Ulgoth's, went invisible, triggered 2nd dialogue, went invisible again. Went inside and downstairs, WoMS to soak up the spells, Aec'Letec lured upstairs, had a nice nap in the inn, back to kill Tracea Carol keeping Aec'Letec upstairs: WoMS, invisibility, wait a long time, WoMS, greater malison, polymorph, a very satisfying dragon's breath. Summons against the cultists, had another nice nap, lure Aec'Letec back down stairs, mirrored eyes, WoMS, Greater Malison, spam wand of paralyzation then beat to death with DUHM + Ogres, repeat as necessary. Leave Ulgoth's Beard with 30 lethal hostiles just standing around. A couple of deaths working out what to do - but I have never fought this guy before, SCS or otherwise so I think I'll let it slide.
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I didn't use the full "revised waukeen" rules, instead limiting myself to picking two items to recharge through the whole game (Wand of paralyzation and ring of energy).
Only breach of Cataclysm really was choosing the wrong spell at level 3 and then swapping it out in EEkeeper - I actually never cast cast remove magic so I didn't get any extra utility out of the swap.
As said before my HP rolls were very lucky.
Very low final gold due to all the CATACLYSM restrictions and buying all those wands of fire. All those un-picked up scrolls, potions and gems really started to add up.
I interpreted Mask as no equipment swapping after entering Sarevok's throneroom, but quickslot shifting was fine, hence the wand use.
@alice_ashpool Well done beating BG with all these curses! I hope you'll come up with something in SoD and show Bel who's da boss.
I'm thinking only trying to kill Demon Knight, and using my BG and overall boss skips for Aec'Letec and Karoug. Karoug I feel is impossible, although it's very long since I've done that. Looking him up he should have like almost 2000 hp, and everything else going on, no thanks.
Good job @alice_ashpool and nice to read that bashing through BG with all those curses was great fun for you! SoD will hopefully be even more of a blast!
@histamiini: I used one of my old saves testing another Shadowdancer6/Fighter against Karoug. Fully buffed up and with the Silver Staff of Aule (+4 against Shapeshifters) it was suprisingly easy especially combining normal bashing with constant stabbing. Took me around a minute (or two) and the job was done even though i got hit several times. But with some healing potions or Durlags Goblet this should be no problem even for Beastmasters. BtW: Karoug only has 278 HP but - yeah - if you add up his fast regeneration thats a lot more at the end!
@Harpagornis Hmmm, I'm only using NearInfinity to check his stats, which maybe actually different Karoug. But it only reports one Karoug, and it shows 600hp non LoB, compared to 350hp of Belhifet. I need to check this in-game. Maybe SCS has changed it as I'm still at 33.3.
EDIT: you're right, Karoug actually changes to Greater Wolfwere, and those stats. Then it should be easier.
Yeah @histamiini, the ingame Karoug is something different. But fully buffed and with enough healing power he should most likely fall to Beastmasters pretty easy too, maybe testing it first with another char.
Okay we have two curses that are still up for feedback
Leira: Charname cannot use or equip unidentified items
Talos: Charname has to play with weather effects "on" and can only use Talos's Gift to protect against lightning
@Blackraven and @Grond0 seem to like Leira, yeah? What about Talos? I think that its okay that some curses are tougher than others... at the end its the combination of them that should... in the best case... make progress tougher while still being fun. Its up to us!
Okay we have two curses that are still up for feedback
Leira: Charname cannot use or equip unidentified items
Talos: Charname has to play with weather effects "on" and can only use Talos's Gift to protect against lightning
I like the first one - that's a nice curse. And the 2nd, except for the requirement of talos gift only: potions of insulation and absorption take up valuable space considering Illmater, and are very useful for Durlag and candlekeep catacombs anyway, and so if someone wants to burn one for prot from lightning that should be ok? Irritation factor: drink potion of insulation for trap X, find yourself in a lightning storm before potion wears off...
Do you mean that only Talos' Gift can protect against electricity, i.e. a toned down version of your earlier proposal that no elemental protections should be allowed?
If you wanted to discriminate a bit more against casters, I suppose you could say that you can't use elemental protection spells (but still allow items, special abilities and green scrolls).
Comments
Hmmm this would make us depend more on innate resistances (Cavalier, Druid, Dragon Disciple) and on items, but with Ilmater (no containers) and Mask (no gear switching in combat), such items will be in short supply. Do you not consider elemental damage extremely dangerous already because of enemies' higher levels and because of double damage? Just asking.
Nice job at the Bandit Camp btw.
Oh, and is everyone else ok with optional curse switching upon completion of each part of the saga?
Polymorph Other? Even if you could get past the 85% magic resistance and polymorph save of 6 (before LoB), he's flat out immune from the standard demon immunity item.
A wand of paralyzation could work - it's a low chance of success since it's subject to magic resistance, but it gives you ten rounds to bash the demon knight once it connects. You just have to survive until then.
The mirror fiend will take it down to badly injured, which is great, since my "clone" is no big deal if you stay out of sight since she does not seem to move, or attack anything but me; however - after that its futile.
I thought I was smart by thinking I could 3 PfF scrolls on the mirror fiend then heal it with fire, but... of course the MR gets in the way for the Mirror Fiend, same as for the Demon Knight.
So what did I do, I abandoned CATACLYSM, but not the fight, oh no, I edited my spells, gave myself skull trap instead of remoe magic, cast 50 right where he moves to when the mirror is broken (free rests in the demon chamber lol), popped the mirror, reloaded 3 times until the stupid skulltrap rolls overcame MR enough and then watched the mirror knight kill him...
cheating...yeah, but now I know that the fight is doable, the only problem being the 10 rests required for 50 casts of skull trap is not quite "CATACLYSM" - althouuuuuugh, there arn't any hostiles in the demon chamber t'til you talk to the knight heh.
As an aside that is only the 2nd time I have fought this guy ever, so pretty pleased with my SCS + LoB cheese win. Just need to string it together in an actual "run" next time.
She's not been afraid to use spells, though learning new ones was a pain. Her initial attempts to get a few choice ones all failed and she resorted to transporting in some potions of genius from the FAI to High Hedge in order to get a selection from there. Making use of those, she has just killed the first of the battle horrors at Durlag's Tower with repeated applications of 10 magic missiles, 2 ice lances and the odd staff critical while using a strength spell.
There have been relatively few surges so far and nothing dangerous to her - there was one petrification surge, but that was on the target (battle horror) and did nothing.
Very helpful!
2nd Strategy - Aggro Demon Knight (with greenstone amulet protections on, I forgot to mention that bit), use wand of paralyzation until it procs, summon monsters and pray you get at least 1 ogre. You and the ogre(s) go to town. Repeat until dead, or, when it is low enough on health, break the mirror and get the mirror fiend to do the work for you (no xp this way though).
This worked first time though it took 30 charges from the WoP to proc only 2 stuns, which was enough with the mirror fiend to finish off the Demon Knight. An expensive battle, but one which worked on only 1 attempt.
Loreth moved through the Cloakwood without problems thanks to Ring of Freedom.
She killed all the time at least one Ettercap or Spider to soak some XP and be able to retreat.
Lamalha´s party had no chance even though Loreth got hit by two arrows due to bad timing.
For Molkar´s party... the inventory already was crowded... she used Potion of Magic Shielding soaking up spells while also eating a Unholy Blight that hit for 18 damage cause stealth aura was not clear. After that it was easy stabbing.
Lured Drasus away from the Mages and stabbed first Genthore who followed him. As he nearly always tried to move back to get his axes throwing Loreth could easily restealth before any missile was in the air. Drasus intended to be funny this time drinking a Potion of Freedom which negates his speed bonus making the stabbing a nobrainer.
Going down to Davaeorn was no problem. He somehow managed to shoot an Acid Arrow through a wall at Loreth but this was negated by some healing potions in between the shooting. As Loreth got really unlucky rolling low numbers in a long row she wasted 152 bolts on the Mage before the evil one went down. Next time i will grab the Ring of Energy before...
Getting out of the Cloakwood some more ambushes but while Ettercaps got stabbed Loreth played the hit-and-get-hit-game against some Wyvern. Baldurs Gate will be next...
And yes @Blackraven: Shadowdancer duals are really powerful... if you get through the early game leveling and at least to some degree play around with stealth time manipulation. I try to minimize this but even then many enemies cannot counter it.
I also agree that the Talos idea would be overkill, maybe another idea will jump in tomorrow!
EDIT: Sad to hear about your loss @Blackraven...
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Level 9 gives you 5, 4, 3, 2 and a max of 5 spells can be learned in total
SoD will raise that tho 5, 5, 4, 3, 2
Here's what I took by level 9, in order of taking L to R
1: Blindness, Find Familiar, PfP, Shield, Expedious Retreat
2: Invisibility, Mirror Image, Knock, Detect Invisibility
3: Monster Summoning 1, Haste, and as I now realize Skull Trap
4: Monster Summoning 2, Polymorph Other
I'm quite happy with this for BG1, the monster summoning really comes into its own in LoB since those are trash spells usually, however: they summon 1d6 monsters rather than a set number of hit dice making them unreliable and sometimes frustrating: nothing like only summoning one ogrillon when you wanted 2 ogres and 4 lizardmen. Also they will lose their utility in SoD... so it might be necessary to get through without them on run 2.
Polymorph other feels like the greatest of all time spell for LoB BG1 since there is a stack of 20 Greater Malison scrolls just there for the buying in Sorcerous Sundries. Bassilus: a squirrel, Karlat: a squirrel, everyone a 5HP squirrel. Sorceress would get 4 (4!) casts per rest, poor Sophia only gets 3, but enjoys 1d6HP/level and being almost immune to fire with Ring of FP as consolation.
The only one I would swap at the moment is Expedious Retreat for MM, if would make the game harder until Drasus, but hey.
Starter:
Main:
Dessert:
Bhaal's Curse is satisfied. For now.
At first level I would never bother with PfP. Your familiar can safely scout out basilisks and, even if it is not allowed to attack, there are other ways to deal with the basilisk. I'd have magic missile instead - particularly in BG1 the high number of 1st level spells available means that can do a decent amount of damage.
At second level, mirror image would tend to be a late pick for me, if taken at all - on the grounds I should very rarely be in a position to be attacked and stoneskins are a better defense if I am attacked (unless you have some source for permanent luck). I would normally take web immediately after invisibility. This not only offers the opportunity to do additional damage, but also to cast disablers safely (web/blind is a great combination for things with dangerous distance attacks like basilisks and ankhegs).
At third, I agree summons are really powerful in LoB, so I might take that. However, the short duration is a bit of a problem. I would be more likely to take skull trap as a first spell. I quite often take MSD, though that's more important in a poverty run than this challenge.
At fourth I wouldn't take MS if I already had the 3rd level variant, given the host of good spells at that level. Stoneskin gives you a better chance of surviving slight mistakes (though obviously that's less of an issue if you're not playing no-reload), spirit armor gives you an improved saving throw and II adds to that as well as providing an alternative way to evade enemies. Fire shield blue offers one potential strategy against Belhifet. Malison gives your disablers much more chance of success, so that would be another early pick, but there are several others at L4 that look attractive to me. Polymorph other is relatively easy to save against (and you can do it by wand), so I wouldn't bother with that in this challenge (emotion is nearly as much of a death sentence at that level, is generally harder to save against and affects multiple targets; PO may affect slightly more enemies than that, but blind and feeblemind both affect even more).
I'd probably lift Waukeen's Curse and rely on rechargeable wands.
1: Blindness, FF, Shield, PfE
I picked PfE because I think DD is in an excellent position to optimize AC to the point where you won't get hit easily at all, leaving your Stoneskins, MIs etc in place for a longer time. Eventually you'll probably pick PfMW, but that lasts only 4 rounds and you won't be able to keep that up all the time. In your set-up with Mystra's curse lifted, Chromatic Orb might also be a worthy pick. I'd mainly want it for its slay effect once you reach caster level 12, though even the 2-turn paralyze effect at lvl 7 is pretty good.
2: Invisibility, Web, Blur, MI
I'd pass on Knock. Why? You'll have high strength eventually with Bhaal DUHM to bash locks, quest relevant locks can easily be forced, and with Ilmater's curse you won't be able to carry a lot of stuff around anyway. I added Blur for the same reason I added PfE.
3: Slow, Skull Trap, Haste
With loads of wand summons, I might try to do without spell summons, and wait for lvl 5 skeleton warriors. I'd probably take Slow instead because of the save penalty and 1/2 attack rate and -4 to enemy Thac0 and AC is really good.
4: Stoneskin, Malison.
Spirit Armor as mentioned by Grond0 is really good but I'd pass for the time being because Sorcerous Sundries sells I think 20 scrolls (at least in my install). Stoneskin for survivability and Malison for your Blindness, Web, Skull Trap, and wands to be more effective.
@Grond0, Shaman, interesting. You must have become good at positioning the Shaman. I found I really missed stealth with my Berserker, which made me think I probably do best with a stealthy character in BG1. Still I think I'll take another shot with the Berserker...
@Blackraven yeah, I've played them a lot. I see plenty of comments about how limited shamans are when dancing and that's absolutely understandable if people are not used to playing them. Like the rest of the game though, you appreciate what the risks and constraints are with experience and improve how you can work round those with practice ...
Some notes:
- Oracle instead of True Sight, I still can cast two True Sights, from Gem of Seeing and possibly from Book of Infinite Spells. This exchange allows Pierce Magic instead Lower Resistance.
- Spell Trap can be cast from Staff of Magi, superior 8 hour version.
- Protection from Fire and Protection from Acid so I can cast Death Fog and Incendiary Cloud on myself.
- Invisibility 10' provides long Invisibility, Mislead escape and Mass Invisibility -4/-4 buffs.
- Permanent Shapechange exploit to Mind Flayer form from Limited Wish scroll.
- Sequencers, triggers and contingencies from SCS innate ability option.
- PfMW, Improved Mantle +4 and Absolute Immunity +5 provide practical weapon immunity up to 72 rounds.
- Spider Spawn is pretty useless in LoB, long casting Emotions are staple buff with Skelis. Consideration for Enchanted Weapon, so Mindflayer form hits +3 instead of +2.
- Black Blade of Disaster for Solars, because only Ogremoch needs Imprisonment in SCS+Ascension, which can be cast from scrolls. Possibly Shapechange if you don't want to use the previous exploit.
- No summon or damage spells from the same level, and trying to avoid similar spells in the book.
The town was indeed the easy part. Stabbing some Dopplegangers, killing the Ogre Mage with infamous Arrow even though she had no points in Bows (even then a 6 was enough to hit), stealthing in and out of the Iron Throne unseen, wile also getting some supplies and finally the precious Sharpshooter Crossbow.
The Candlekeep Ogre Mage ambush started easy: Stealth worked so Loreth repositioned to get in one shot at them (they even did not precast any buffs) but manipulating the stealth timer worked against her... stealth broke too early... and the Mages started casting forcing her to drink a Invisibility Potion... resposition and landing a 24 damage stab on her next attack.... restealth... talking to the guard... done.
Candlekeep Catacombs were quick business. Protection against Fire and Lightning, Mastery Thievery plus DoHM for the Tomes and the stealthing through enemy lines unseen only stopping to shoot one Greater Basilisk down who pushed Loreth to Level 8 -> 66 HP. Not that bad.
With 19 Str stabbing will get a lot easier now. Lets see whats up next...
The Gond curse really strikes more and more as the inventory gets easily crowded so Loreth is forced to sell and park some items in shops. She still has not chosen any deity mayb that will change soon.
Another idea for a curse which will hurt any non-Mages a bit more...
Leira: Charname cannot use or equip unidentified items
What do you think?
@histamiini: Is there a way to get the Gem of Seeing without recruiting Rasaad? ^^
@Harpagornis, good stuff! You're on course for the endgame, although Ducal Palace is such a bottleneck.
@Blackraven I usually use depletion tactic against mages, activate casting, then hide. That's why there's usually no need for dispels, because their protections eventually wear off. I think that's safer tactic in nR challenge. And because of that I actually have very little experience with Ruby Ray's and such.
Btw I would take Knock for Sorcerer, because although you get DUHM, you can't drink warrior potions so bashing is limited in BG without Violet Potion. And eventually you lose DUHM anyway, at which point Knock is valuable. Although as with some other spells, it's balance between how many items (scrolls) there is, and convinience. So it's personal preference still what you want to have.
@histamiini: You recruit companions to start their quest lines? Shame on you! *G*
Any opinions on the new curse idea of not allowing chars to use unidentified items? Other Ideas?
@Harpagornis, ooh a narrow escape, that should be a good wake up call no?
Leira's curse sounds good to me BTW!
Does not using unidentified items add any difficulty? Is there really situations that you would lift such curse?
@histamiini: Well, well... you have to live with that... but i am still really disappointed... :P
Yeah, not allowing unidentified items is not that big.... hhhmmmm....
But what about Talos:
Talos: Charname has to play with weather effects "on" and can only use Talos's Gift to protect against lightning
Not too much to worry about, no?
Final Inventory
Final Fight: Lured to top corner, angelo waited out while invisible, malisoned, paralyzed and beaten to pieces. WoMS and Monster Summoning 2 to kill Skele-Angelo, 100 fireballs from 5 unrecharged wands of fire into top corner. 3 Skeletons lured and parked in the bottom left corner with invisibility, Sarevok kited with recharged ring of energy, oil of speed+boots and WoMS to hold him up for a few seconds. 30 charges to kill. THe only issue was when I misclicked around fireball 70 and aggroed sarevok with no oil of speed up, and frantically kited him around and had spell disrupted trying to re-park. Clutch on the final invisibility cast, but did it no reload.
The big issue here was Mask imo, no changing gear.
Assassins: Slythe was malisoned, held up with monsters, them polymorphed into a squirrel - so satisfying after the difficulties with my monk doing this fight. Got it 2nd time as first time he chunked me, whoops.
Dukes: WoMS + Liia's Dispel Magic + greater malison + wand of paralysation from the stairs at the top. This seemed to confuse the dopples and they did all sorts of strange stuff. Also polymorphed one but the saves are pretty good even with Mystra + Malison due to all the buffs the mage + shaman seem to throw out. Waiting for the first WoMS to expire/die before summoning more for replacement was not all that big a deal. I even reloaded and did it again to see what was going on - same thing 2 for 2 successes. Got it first try and was so amazed I reloaded, so I guess thats 1 reload here.
Aec'Letec: What a mess: triggered dialogue arriving in Ulgoth's, went invisible, triggered 2nd dialogue, went invisible again. Went inside and downstairs, WoMS to soak up the spells, Aec'Letec lured upstairs, had a nice nap in the inn, back to kill Tracea Carol keeping Aec'Letec upstairs: WoMS, invisibility, wait a long time, WoMS, greater malison, polymorph, a very satisfying dragon's breath. Summons against the cultists, had another nice nap, lure Aec'Letec back down stairs, mirrored eyes, WoMS, Greater Malison, spam wand of paralyzation then beat to death with DUHM + Ogres, repeat as necessary. Leave Ulgoth's Beard with 30 lethal hostiles just standing around. A couple of deaths working out what to do - but I have never fought this guy before, SCS or otherwise so I think I'll let it slide.
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I didn't use the full "revised waukeen" rules, instead limiting myself to picking two items to recharge through the whole game (Wand of paralyzation and ring of energy).
Only breach of Cataclysm really was choosing the wrong spell at level 3 and then swapping it out in EEkeeper - I actually never cast cast remove magic so I didn't get any extra utility out of the swap.
As said before my HP rolls were very lucky.
Very low final gold due to all the CATACLYSM restrictions and buying all those wands of fire. All those un-picked up scrolls, potions and gems really started to add up.
I interpreted Mask as no equipment swapping after entering Sarevok's throneroom, but quickslot shifting was fine, hence the wand use.
Verdict: great fun.
I'm thinking only trying to kill Demon Knight, and using my BG and overall boss skips for Aec'Letec and Karoug. Karoug I feel is impossible, although it's very long since I've done that. Looking him up he should have like almost 2000 hp, and everything else going on, no thanks.
@histamiini: I used one of my old saves testing another Shadowdancer6/Fighter against Karoug. Fully buffed up and with the Silver Staff of Aule (+4 against Shapeshifters) it was suprisingly easy especially combining normal bashing with constant stabbing. Took me around a minute (or two) and the job was done even though i got hit several times. But with some healing potions or Durlags Goblet this should be no problem even for Beastmasters. BtW: Karoug only has 278 HP but - yeah - if you add up his fast regeneration thats a lot more at the end!
EDIT: you're right, Karoug actually changes to Greater Wolfwere, and those stats. Then it should be easier.
Okay we have two curses that are still up for feedback
Leira: Charname cannot use or equip unidentified items
Talos: Charname has to play with weather effects "on" and can only use Talos's Gift to protect against lightning
@Blackraven and @Grond0 seem to like Leira, yeah? What about Talos? I think that its okay that some curses are tougher than others... at the end its the combination of them that should... in the best case... make progress tougher while still being fun. Its up to us!
I like the first one - that's a nice curse. And the 2nd, except for the requirement of talos gift only: potions of insulation and absorption take up valuable space considering Illmater, and are very useful for Durlag and candlekeep catacombs anyway, and so if someone wants to burn one for prot from lightning that should be ok? Irritation factor: drink potion of insulation for trap X, find yourself in a lightning storm before potion wears off...
If you wanted to discriminate a bit more against casters, I suppose you could say that you can't use elemental protection spells (but still allow items, special abilities and green scrolls).