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Summoned Creatures extra toughness: Feature or un-intended behavior? (on LoB)

So I've been a little out of touch with these games and fora for a while, so it might be that this was answered a while ago. Deciding to make a return I got back to a character I had previously shelved but whom I care very much for (currently crawling through Durlag's Dungeon): My Beast Master.

I started him with the introduction of LoB with intentions for a complete run and eventual Dual-Classing in BG2, but I digress. I had very soon noticed how awesome summons (and familiars) are on LoB: they get a lot of extra hit points, which seem to count as levels in some matters, like for example Mass Healing or Call Lightnings from a level 4 summon that are stronger than what a druid himself could initially do. (Positively) ridiculous, right?

So I decided to go for an odd character and include Faldorn in my party. She shines. While she and Neera and once a day my main keep up a supply of summons and debuffs, my main, Safana, Coran and Kivan pellet my foes with arrows. It works splendidly.

Which brings me to my question - too splendidly? Was I not supposed to get extra HP on my familiar, thus my main and all other summons? If this behavior is indeed to be fixed, I want to know, so that I can postpone downloading the next update. You see, Beast Masters aren't the biggest powerhouses in the saga; If mine can have a slight edge over others I'll use it as long as it's there. :smile:

Comments

  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,847
    Its a side effect of LoB mode, which is just a port of Heart of Fury mode. That means utilizing a Pokemon playstyle where you focus on using summons is especially effective since the summons also receive the benefits of HoF mode.
  • justfeelinathomejustfeelinathome Member Posts: 353
    edited November 2016
    Flashburn said:

    That means utilizing a Pokemon playstyle where you focus on using summons is especially effective since the summons also receive the benefits of HoF mode.

    Guess I'll start calling my fairy dragon Pikachu, since he's basically number 6 and never goes into the pokèball/inventory. Also, forgot to mention: Summons don't take modified (double) amounts of damage and only normal, so yeah, I figured out that was a lucky perk myself.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    I have no experience with LoB, but it seems to me that it changes the balance of the game, damaging spells get a lot less effective, save or else ones suffer from the good saving throws the enemy has. So probably the fact that summoning spells get so good is not bad.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    While there could certainly be a point made for summon HP being in line with LoB mode, I personally find that it is too good. Because enemy damage does not really scale in LoB, having hundreds more HP on summons can be gamebreaking. The static HP modifier is particularly devastating with cheap summons of many creatures, which you can use to effectively box in many enemies and keep them trapped as they hack through hundreds of HP - all the while you can pelt them from afar. While this certainly isn't just an automatic I-win-button (particularly with all the casters around), I have personally found it way too easily abused in way too many tight spots.

    I simply choose not to use summons at all in LoB. However, that is entirely my personal decision based on my preferences for my particular setup of the game. I do not find much merit in arguing whether the bonus HP is "legit" or "intended" or whatever; that, to me, has very little bearing on my own decisions. Instead I've simply tried thins out and looked at what happens to my game - I didn't like it, so I stopped doing it. I can only encourage people to follow a similar path and decide for themselves based on their own experience and preference.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I think your own summons don't get the full bonuses from LoB mode: instead of getting triple HP plus 80 on top, they get double HP plus 20.
  • justfeelinathomejustfeelinathome Member Posts: 353



    I simply choose not to use summons at all in LoB. However, that is entirely my personal decision based on my preferences for my particular setup of the game. I do not find much merit in arguing whether the bonus HP is "legit" or "intended" or whatever; that, to me, has very little bearing on my own decisions. Instead I've simply tried thins out and looked at what happens to my game - I didn't like it, so I stopped doing it. I can only encourage people to follow a similar path and decide for themselves based on their own experience and preference.

    I might have mislead some of you with my title, as to @Lord_Tansheron : the points of legitimacy and intention (by the developers) do not matter to me per-se. I was just curious as to wether this is likely subject to being changed in a future patch, but it seems there's no Devs around to clarify that. I play this character from a conscious decision: It's such a niche class (beast master) I never played with it before and now there's an opportunity for it to be somewhat incentivized.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    @Lord_Tansheron I see your point and, as I know that you seek always the maximum challenge, I understand your decision.
    But I think that in every setup there are some spells and tactics that work better than others, that are too good. In LoB can be summoning, in vanilla can be Improved Haste or PI. The decision if to don't use at all, use or abuse the thing is up to the player. My approach is ever been to use, but to use also self restrain and moderation.
    To decide to don't use at all summons is perfectly fine, as is fine when some players decide to don't use PI or wear the RoV or weld the anti Beholder Shield in vanilla.
    But vanilla summons in a LoB setting would nerf the casters power even more and not all the players like to have super optimized parties filled with dual and multi, beefed up with maxed HP gain at level up, some of us like to play with a charname with average stats and chose the comrades for other reasons that raw power, the PG way is not the only way (and I tell this even if I am, in many aspects, a PGamer).
    And a difficulty mod or setting should be possible to be played with many styles, imo a mod that force you to use a particular style that is not your own is not a good mod.

    @justfeelinathome only the developers can answer to your question and I hope that they will do it.
    As we wait for the answer I hope that you don't mind if we share our thinks about the thing, that maybe can even be a good feedback for the developers.
  • justfeelinathomejustfeelinathome Member Posts: 353
    @gorgonzola There's no reason why I would mind. That's what a forum like this is made for, after all: Sharing thoughts. And I must add that @Lord_Tansheron has the utmost respect for limiting himself even more in the already highly challenging difficulty ranges. It's no small feat.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    He HAS to do it. He is a so strong and experienced player that even in the hard setting of LoB, once he did get used to the new environment, if he abuses the weakness of the setting little challenge is left.
    In the pre LoB era he was just destroying everything, even with SCS and all the rest, ignoring almost completely defense and focusing only on offence. He was basically testing which party would destroy the enemies faster :smile:
    He deserve the respect that has to be given to the really strong players, the ones that are not only black belt, but are black belt with many dan, the masters of the game.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,724
    edited November 2016
    As long as there're no feature requests to change summons' HPs in LoB, they'll most likely stay as they're now.

    Not everyone have been using Heart of Fury in IWD, I guess not everyone are using LoB in BG.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,724

    I think your own summons don't get the full bonuses from LoB mode: instead of getting triple HP plus 80 on top, they get double HP plus 20.

    Yes, this is right. The more details on LoB are available here: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/54970/honest-discussion-about-legacy-of-bhaal/p1
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