Some clarification by the devs of the coupling rules for SoD would be welcome ...
If you have both characters in party, and kick one of them out, you'll be asked whether you want them both to stay or leave.
You can, however, kick both of them out simultaneously, and tell the first one to approach you don't want him/her in the party - since their companion in not in the party at the moment, they won't interject. Then just accept the second NPC back.
But the only thing I found really unacceptable in SoD are the immersion-breaking invincible instakill Flaming Fist mages that pop up if you engage in, uh, unsolicited violence.
Lets just say that inability to attack allied NPCs in videogames has been invented for a reason
If you have both characters in party, and kick one of them out, you'll be asked whether you want them both to stay or leave.
You can, however, kick both of them out simultaneously, and tell the first one to approach you don't want him/her in the party - since their companion in not in the party at the moment, they won't interject. Then just accept the second NPC back.
Excellent clarification! Thanks very much, @Ardanis!
Lets just say that inability to attack allied NPCs in videogames has been invented for a reason
Well, of course, but that's not really an answer to @God's objection.
However a game handles the problem of a player attacking a plot-essential character (or taking some other action which can't be allowed for plot reasons), it's likely to be somewhat immersion-breaking for many players. SFAIK, no-one has yet invented a feasible method of handling this in a seamless way.
Personally, I'm content with the existing BG method, long-ago implemented in BG2 and followed in SoD, of forcing a reload by having a special god-mode NPC pop up and massacre your party ... at least this way your abrupt game-over maintains the "fourth wall", even if it doesn't make much story sense (as @God points out).
Others, such as @God, would presumably prefer an overt dialogue box to pop up and explicitly say "You can't do that, because it would break the plot. Now reload and try something else." I reckon I'd find that more immersion-breaking than the existing method, but at least it's honest and unmistakeable.
No doubt others could suggest other mechanisms for the game to tell you "You're not allowed to do that!", but if anyone can see any way to do it both reliably and seamlessly in all possible circumstances, then Beamdog should hire them (and so should every other dev company!)
Also couldn't recruit them and Edwin which is bizarre as there is actually dialog in BG that allows you to do that and explains why you can (have to keep an eye on the witch ect.).
Not really so bizarre. BG1 does allow you to do this temporarily, but they soon break into a fight. Likewise BG2 allows you to recruit Minsc and Edwin together, but again they break into a fight if you keep them together for long.
I've taken Dynaheir/Edwin through to the end of BG. I've even managed to get Edwin/Minsc through BG2 and TOB (not for any "hey look at me reasons", simply because the fight broke out in the Underdark and didn't really have a choice and once you get used to micromanaging, well you might as wll carry on) The TOB portion was because I wanted to see their epilogs and I wasn't on the net for quite a few years at that time.
I've even managed to get Edwin/Minsc through BG2 and TOB
That's quite impressive! I reckon most players would find one or the other dead when the dust settled ... but if you managed to keep them both alive and willing to continue in the party after their fight, then well done.
Well, of course, but that's not really an answer to @God's objection.
I did not object, but rather I voiced my opinion. The design decisions Beamdog made in SoD are as valid as any, and I should not like to discourage them from persisting in their use should they so desire. I merely remarked that a solution centred around deus ex machina devices like invisible walls and invincible enforcers may produce bewilderment and dissatisfaction in the player, and brought up an example of another alternative solution previously implemented within Infinity Engine. That is not to say that I support either. In my work, I would use neither of these, and instead redesign the situation in a way such that eliminates the necessity to refer to awkward cheats. This requires more time and resources than putting up one Game-Over screen or the other, but I generally consider the extra effort to be worth it.
Lets just say that inability to attack allied NPCs in videogames has been invented for a reason
So you say, and perhaps that particular reasoning appeals to you. My own design practices differ, and I typically kill arbitrary character labels before they lay their eggs and cast the world in 0s and 1s. If I allow a character to voice a claim that they are a friend and ally of the player, the player may accept that, ignore that or make it clear they don't want them. Or do other stuff, even something like this if they feel like it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qIb3kuha4k Though that's just me being me. I enjoy creating choices. Freedom above all and so on. If I were in charge of, say, Call of Duty, it's quite likely there'd be an option to sabotage the British war effort and assassinate Captain Price for an undercover double agent Hitlerjugend-alumni alternate ending, at least
I think the approach used by Divinity Original Sin is the most effective. You can kill anyone (with two exceptions, both god-like beings) and the plot will still continue. You can even kill every single living thing in the game, save for the aforementioned two, and still complete it. This'll certainly be harder but that's quite logical at the end of the day.
Come to think of it, even in BG1, if Winski and his super Flamestrike had attacked Charname from the get-go, no one would have stopped Sarevok.
I've even managed to get Edwin/Minsc through BG2 and TOB
That's quite impressive! I reckon most players would find one or the other dead when the dust settled ... but if you managed to keep them both alive and willing to continue in the party after their fight, then well done.
It's not that hard. Reload before the fight (which once again Minsc starts, psychopath) and make sure they never stand around close to each other, fights don't break out when you are doing stuff. I have children, piece of cake in comparison.
"Lets just say that inability to attack allied NPCs in videogames has been invented for a reason"
For me that's acceptable to an extent, I'm probably more easy going than a lot of players here. But is should be used sparingly, when there really isn't an alternative.
But to invoke that "clause" for no reason is annoying. Charname and/or the game, doesn't need Corwin following you around BG. I had no option to tell her to leave, all responses however rude made no difference. Even if you pick up allies, she still follows as if you need her protection.
That's where the real immersion breaking occurs, not being able to kill her simply adds another layer.
I got to kill her afterall, officially in game, not as an "accident" if she was part of my party.
Joy.
Though the FF and those in BG must be really dumb to leave my full to bursting potion case and ammo belt just lying on a table. So Corwin (and the other FF) having 30 arrows of detonation really does make a difference, who knew?
This is why you never, ever use anything that you might think you may need later. As everybody knows, it's only when you finish the game absolutely laden down with unused stuff that you really win the game.
And after the cut scene with the "core" group at the end, I can only thank Irenicus for killing a few of them. Snidey b'stards.
hard to think of a more irritating character then Cowin... anyway I played like a bit into it and rejected her so she sat in the first camp. after i completed the onjective that moves the story to the next area Corwin came up wjen she was NOT in my party and activated my dialogue box for much not wanted convetsation... as I recall too as usual there were no, "Shutup or I will slap you silly!" like Tiax responses.. unsatisfying and irratating nice one peg me in a hole Beamdawg writers.
Anyway I did not do a quicksave and some character got smashed in the following part so I had to go back to a first save camp again. Low and behold there was Corwin again just waitin on me her recruit to finish the area once again and then tell me off...
Already being sullen I had to replay I turned off the AI and my main Blackguard cut her down. I to a complete chunck state. i finished the arra again and hey Waalllaa! no dopey lines from Cowin... that was sweet!
Speaking of extra character teams I did a withdraw from Blabby Mage lady .Dathneria was nice in BG2... why they make all the new npc characters hateful and angered (edwin is perpetually petulant too constantly complaining when selected) she died... and I shoved her corpse on the ground keepimg Minsc... very funny or perhaps morbid... her filthy carcass follows me around all the game staging her corpse by my stasj chest ... is tgis a guilt trip message from Beamdog...or a bug?
Huh, I personally LOVED Corwin and this is the first time I've seen any dislike for her. Would people be willing to list what they don't like about her and why? I'm intensely curious.
Huh, I personally LOVED Corwin and this is the first time I've seen any dislike for her. Would people be willing to list what they don't like about her and why? I'm intensely curious.
- Uptight. - Humourless. - Bossy. - Self-righteous. - So powerful than not taking her along is effectively gimping yourself, which makes the 4 previous points even more annoying.
She epitomizes Lawful Good, an alignment I despise, and unlike Keldorn or Mazzy the game tends to take her side instead of the more neutral stance found in BG2.
Just to add to @Kurona 's list which is spot on for me.
Arrogance, a huge amount of arrogance. The way she speaks to your former companions and Charname is unbelievably arrogant. She is nothing, a nobody at the beginning of SOD, you and the NPC have history.
Just a little humility would have gone a long way. Isn't that how people usually behave when joining a successful established group?
At one point she came on to my charname, it was laughable as there had been no indication beforehand that a "relationship" was anywhere in the cards. At least Anomen, with all his arrogance, manages to pick you a flower.
It was so clumsy, so badly written that there was some discomfort because it felt more like she was a stalker. (again for me, can't emphasise this enough as people do seem to mix up opinion with fact) The kind who if you look at them for more than two seconds assume you are interested. That's how badly the writing of the character came across.
And before the same rebuttal is used "it's just because they are new NPC, you only like the old NPC", M'Khiin was utterly brilliant, loved that NPC, Glint yet to use but liked the initial dialog and Voghiln used for a short time and will again.
I didn't like Corwins romance either, but I didn't like Safanas either..Well Safanas seems more like a flirt pack than anything really.
I just started using Baeloth and I think he's easily my most favorite NPC from Beamdog, although I haven't played Black pits or used him that much in BG1. His banters with other npcs are some of the most amusing so far, why didn't you give this guy his own quest Beamdog!=P
I didn't like Corwins romance either, but I didn't like Safanas either..Well Safanas seems more like a flirt pack than anything really.
I just started using Baeloth and I think he's easily my most favorite NPC from Beamdog, although I haven't played Black pits or used him that much in BG1. His banters with other npcs are some of the most amusing so far, why didn't you give this guy his own quest Beamdog!=P
Couldn't agree more Baeloth is great. And with M'Khiin in the party as well, some really good dialog.
I didn't like Corwins romance either, but I didn't like Safanas either..Well Safanas seems more like a flirt pack than anything really.
I just started using Baeloth and I think he's easily my most favorite NPC from Beamdog, although I haven't played Black pits or used him that much in BG1. His banters with other npcs are some of the most amusing so far, why didn't you give this guy his own quest Beamdog!=P
Couldn't agree more Baeloth is great. And with M'Khiin in the party as well, some really good dialog.
Yeah I enjoyed that you can bring them along together, despite the fact that he was just recently using M'Khiin as a circus monkey^^
- Uptight. - Humourless. - Bossy. - Self-righteous. - So powerful than not taking her along is effectively gimping yourself, which makes the 4 previous points even more annoying.
Considering you can legitimately off her later, I think the listed qualities make the act all the more satisfying Kinda like kicking Jaheira out of party during her quest in BG2.
I found Corwin to turn out more or less all right, actually. She has this jagged alliance feeling to her, and even portrait style is similar. Not without issues, of course. Overpowered - but that's common in Beamdog NPCs. Romance was strange... I couldn't really tell if that was romance, where were we at any single point in the same, was even finished or not.
Mkhiin, on the other hand, quickly got annoying. The only thing that kept her in party is that I needed divine power and wanted to check out shaman class.
There is this cult classic BG line: Maybe your grandiose vocabulary is a pathetic compensation for an insufficiency in the nether regions of your anatomy. The way I see it, the guy is mostly a funnily insecure Malavon Despana wannabe
To be fair, Corwin isn't any more powerful than any other well-stated Archer. I haven't played one through BG2 or TOB, but they're devastating at low to mid levels. The kit is basically Kensai with a bow.
I found Corwin to turn out more or less all right, actually. She has this jagged alliance feeling to her, and even portrait style is similar. Not without issues, of course. Overpowered - but that's common in Beamdog NPCs. Romance was strange... I couldn't really tell if that was romance, where were we at any single point in the same, was even finished or not.
Mkhiin, on the other hand, quickly got annoying. The only thing that kept her in party is that I needed divine power and wanted to check out shaman class.
Funny, M'khiin was my favorite. Best written SOD companion imo. Baeloth and his absolutely annoying alliterations is what gets on my nerves a bit.
I didn't romance Corwin but kept her around, well written and believable as a Flaming Fist, but ranger as a class didn't seem to fit. I did stick around at the end just to kill her though.
I used EE Keeper to turn Corwin into a regular sword & board fighter to tank, and I didn't have too many complaints. I'd have preferred Officer Vai, instead of her, however. Maybe someone can do a mod to that effect?
Corwin did get annoying near the end of the game being rather quick to turn on the character. Still, I let her live instead of killing her in the sewers, more for the sake of the daughter than any fondness for the character. (My DC fighter-thief just used one of those invisibility potions to walk right past the Fists stationed down there)
She epitomizes Lawful Good, an alignment I despise, and unlike Keldorn or Mazzy the game tends to take her side instead of the more neutral stance found in BG2.
Beamdog is awful about this, and it's exactly this tendency that irks me about the EEs and SoD. They really do tend to side with their characters. Perhaps the epitome of this is Hexxat (e.g. Keldorn being scared of her -- what even?), but even in BG1:EE there was a lot of it -- e.g. Dorn verbally pissing all over everyone, and said NPCs ALL suddenly having foot-in-mouth syndrome, even the well-spoken ones.
I just recently played with Hexxat, though she didn't last long in the party. I have to say, on the whole, I was rather unimpressed with her as a character. Hell, she wasn't even a *real* vampire the way Bodhi or Valen is, and her personality wasn't even interesting enough to EEK into something more useful. I ended up putting Jaheira back into the group to replace her.
Comments
You can, however, kick both of them out simultaneously, and tell the first one to approach you don't want him/her in the party - since their companion in not in the party at the moment, they won't interject. Then just accept the second NPC back. Lets just say that inability to attack allied NPCs in videogames has been invented for a reason
However a game handles the problem of a player attacking a plot-essential character (or taking some other action which can't be allowed for plot reasons), it's likely to be somewhat immersion-breaking for many players. SFAIK, no-one has yet invented a feasible method of handling this in a seamless way.
Personally, I'm content with the existing BG method, long-ago implemented in BG2 and followed in SoD, of forcing a reload by having a special god-mode NPC pop up and massacre your party ... at least this way your abrupt game-over maintains the "fourth wall", even if it doesn't make much story sense (as @God points out).
Others, such as @God, would presumably prefer an overt dialogue box to pop up and explicitly say "You can't do that, because it would break the plot. Now reload and try something else." I reckon I'd find that more immersion-breaking than the existing method, but at least it's honest and unmistakeable.
No doubt others could suggest other mechanisms for the game to tell you "You're not allowed to do that!", but if anyone can see any way to do it both reliably and seamlessly in all possible circumstances, then Beamdog should hire them (and so should every other dev company!)
I've even managed to get Edwin/Minsc through BG2 and TOB (not for any "hey look at me reasons", simply because the fight broke out in the Underdark and didn't really have a choice and once you get used to micromanaging, well you might as wll carry on)
The TOB portion was because I wanted to see their epilogs and I wasn't on the net for quite a few years at that time.
In my work, I would use neither of these, and instead redesign the situation in a way such that eliminates the necessity to refer to awkward cheats. This requires more time and resources than putting up one Game-Over screen or the other, but I generally consider the extra effort to be worth it. So you say, and perhaps that particular reasoning appeals to you.
My own design practices differ, and I typically kill arbitrary character labels before they lay their eggs and cast the world in 0s and 1s.
If I allow a character to voice a claim that they are a friend and ally of the player, the player may accept that, ignore that or make it clear they don't want them. Or do other stuff, even something like this if they feel like it:
Though that's just me being me. I enjoy creating choices. Freedom above all and so on.
If I were in charge of, say, Call of Duty, it's quite likely there'd be an option to sabotage the British war effort and assassinate Captain Price for an undercover double agent Hitlerjugend-alumni alternate ending, at least
Come to think of it, even in BG1, if Winski and his super Flamestrike had attacked Charname from the get-go, no one would have stopped Sarevok.
It's not that hard.
Reload before the fight (which once again Minsc starts, psychopath) and make sure they never stand around close to each other, fights don't break out when you are doing stuff.
I have children, piece of cake in comparison.
"Lets just say that inability to attack allied NPCs in videogames has been invented for a reason"
For me that's acceptable to an extent, I'm probably more easy going than a lot of players here. But is should be used sparingly, when there really isn't an alternative.
But to invoke that "clause" for no reason is annoying.
Charname and/or the game, doesn't need Corwin following you around BG. I had no option to tell her to leave, all responses however rude made no difference. Even if you pick up allies, she still follows as if you need her protection.
That's where the real immersion breaking occurs, not being able to kill her simply adds another layer.
I got to kill her afterall, officially in game, not as an "accident" if she was part of my party.
Joy.
Though the FF and those in BG must be really dumb to leave my full to bursting potion case and ammo belt just lying on a table.
So Corwin (and the other FF) having 30 arrows of detonation really does make a difference, who knew?
This is why you never, ever use anything that you might think you may need later. As everybody knows, it's only when you finish the game absolutely laden down with unused stuff that you really win the game.
And after the cut scene with the "core" group at the end, I can only thank Irenicus for killing a few of them.
Snidey b'stards.
unsatisfying and irratating nice one peg me in a hole Beamdawg writers.
Anyway I did not do a quicksave and some character got smashed in the following part so I had to go back to a first save camp again. Low and behold there was Corwin again just waitin on me her recruit to finish the area once again and then tell me off...
Already being sullen I had to replay I turned off the AI and my main Blackguard cut her down. I to a complete chunck state. i finished the arra again and hey Waalllaa! no dopey lines from Cowin... that was sweet!
Speaking of extra character teams I did a withdraw from Blabby Mage lady .Dathneria was nice in BG2... why they make all the new npc characters hateful and angered (edwin is perpetually petulant too constantly complaining when selected) she died... and I shoved her corpse on the ground keepimg Minsc... very funny or perhaps morbid...
her filthy carcass follows me around all the game staging her corpse by my stasj chest
... is tgis a guilt trip message from Beamdog...or a bug?
- Humourless.
- Bossy.
- Self-righteous.
- So powerful than not taking her along is effectively gimping yourself, which makes the 4 previous points even more annoying.
She epitomizes Lawful Good, an alignment I despise, and unlike Keldorn or Mazzy the game tends to take her side instead of the more neutral stance found in BG2.
Just to add to @Kurona 's list which is spot on for me.
Arrogance, a huge amount of arrogance.
The way she speaks to your former companions and Charname is unbelievably arrogant.
She is nothing, a nobody at the beginning of SOD, you and the NPC have history.
Just a little humility would have gone a long way.
Isn't that how people usually behave when joining a successful established group?
At one point she came on to my charname, it was laughable as there had been no indication beforehand that a "relationship" was anywhere in the cards.
At least Anomen, with all his arrogance, manages to pick you a flower.
It was so clumsy, so badly written that there was some discomfort because it felt more like she was a stalker.
(again for me, can't emphasise this enough as people do seem to mix up opinion with fact)
The kind who if you look at them for more than two seconds assume you are interested.
That's how badly the writing of the character came across.
And before the same rebuttal is used "it's just because they are new NPC, you only like the old NPC", M'Khiin was utterly brilliant, loved that NPC, Glint yet to use but liked the initial dialog and Voghiln used for a short time and will again.
I just started using Baeloth and I think he's easily my most favorite NPC from Beamdog, although I haven't played Black pits or used him that much in BG1. His banters with other npcs are some of the most amusing so far, why didn't you give this guy his own quest Beamdog!=P
And with M'Khiin in the party as well, some really good dialog.
Not without issues, of course. Overpowered - but that's common in Beamdog NPCs. Romance was strange... I couldn't really tell if that was romance, where were we at any single point in the same, was even finished or not.
Mkhiin, on the other hand, quickly got annoying. The only thing that kept her in party is that I needed divine power and wanted to check out shaman class.
Maybe your grandiose vocabulary is a pathetic compensation for an insufficiency in the nether regions of your anatomy.
The way I see it, the guy is mostly a funnily insecure Malavon Despana wannabe
I didn't romance Corwin but kept her around, well written and believable as a Flaming Fist, but ranger as a class didn't seem to fit. I did stick around at the end just to kill her though.
Corwin did get annoying near the end of the game being rather quick to turn on the character. Still, I let her live instead of killing her in the sewers, more for the sake of the daughter than any fondness for the character. (My DC fighter-thief just used one of those invisibility potions to walk right past the Fists stationed down there)