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Killing Corwin

13

Comments

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,248
    @Quartz

    Agreed, and it's so obvious in some cases one wonders why there was no overall review that picked up on it. I think the EE NPC's would be far more popular and fit better had they done that.
    Instead what they seemed to do was give an attribute or an item that was unique so players are forced to grin and bear the annoyance, or they made them unavoidable.

    Was it just ego?
    Quartz
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,030
    Eh, their unique items aren't that good. If you don't like them, then don't take them. You won't miss out on anything crucial.
    Quartz
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,704
    Overall I agree with @ThacoBell, but let's give just BG:EE (because that's what I'm familiar with) a run-down:

    Dorn: Highest roll in the game. Illegal race/class combo. Starts off with a pretty good sword. His quest line results in the best Bastard Sword in BG1 and elven chain.
    Neera: Gem bag. This means anyone sane will either recruit her or murder her on sight. (An interesting definition of "sanity," I know.)
    Rasaad: Great items. His quest line has one bloody excellent item too.
    Baeloth: Extra Evil Archmagi Robe, he gets way more spells than a Sorcerer should have.

    Cripes. Couldn't they have made even one of these guys a Garrick or even a Tiax or Eldoth (in terms of ability and special-snowflakeness) and just made them so interesting people want to pick them up anyway? That's where a real challenge is! They tried to make Rasaad balanced with his somewhat mediocre stats, but his items are still godly.

    And don't even get me started on Hexxat. Urgh.
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,248
    @Quartz

    Just to add, you can't take Neera with Edwin.
    Why is she so precious?

    Even D and M will travel with Edwin (and he plainly says he wants to kill D), J/K and X/M will travel together even if a fight breaks out.
    What happened to leaving it up to the player to decide if they should risk NPC traveling together?

    And about the gem bag, pretty sure they added a potion case to High Hedge, wouldn't that have been a better place to put one in the game so you could buy it?
    BG has a lot, and I mean a lot of gems, as we all know Hobgoblins ect. really like to dress up when they go out and about (don't go there).
    And low level, you need to pick them up for the gold.
    Quartz
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 509
    edited January 29
    Rasaads quest is noticeable because the enemies you meet are a complete joke at that level. I'm not sure how a lower level party would do, but by the time you get to Baldurs gate..You are too strong imo.

    So you don't even have to work that hard to get a really good item.
    Quartz
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,030
    Garrick is far more overpowered than any of the EE npcs.
    thespace
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 713
    really glint and corwin are the only sod npcs i actually like. Voghiln is boring and i found M'Khiin not that intresting as she barly talked during my run with her.
    Quartz
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,030

    really glint and corwin are the only sod npcs i actually like. Voghiln is boring and i found M'Khiin not that intresting as she barly talked during my run with her.

    Really? M'Khiin was pretty talkative for me.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,704
    edited January 29
    @JuliusBorisov

    Doesn't SoD offers exactly that? Take Glint, for example. No matter his items (or lack of them), his personality is what makes you take him, not his stats.

    "let's give just BG:EE (because that's what I'm familiar with) a run-down"

    I made it quite clear I was referencing BG:EE alone. I actually rather like the SoD NPCs for the very reason you mention.
    JuliusBorisovbatoor
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,482
    edited February 1
    Mush_Mush said:

    I disagree, there's such a thing as free will. You can do or say whatever you want to anyone you want. There will be consequences but you have the freedom to do it regardless, same principle could/should be the case for RPGs.

    And the consequence for being such a Chaotic Stupid person as to kill your guide in full daylight should be that your character dies.
    God said:

    But the only thing I found really unacceptable in SoD are the immersion-breaking invincible instakill Flaming Fist mages that pop up if you engage in, uh, unsolicited violence.

    Oh, poor you! You couldn't engage in wanton slaughter, without consequences!

    In all seriousness, does anyone really think slaughtering your guide OR killing innocents in a major city is NOT going to result in the harshest penalties? If you tried this in PnP, any good DM would make a spectacle of your character. This kind of "let's screw the system" behavior is why many DMs don't allow Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil. Contrary to popular opinion, trying to embody the insanity of Tiax doesn't make you evil; it just makes you Chaotic Stupid.

    Beamdog just anticipated people trying to "break the game". Too bad, so sad!

    Ardanis said:

    Lets just say that inability to attack allied NPCs in videogames has been invented for a reason :|

    Well, of course, but that's not really an answer to @God's objection.

    However a game handles the problem of a player attacking a plot-essential character (or taking some other action which can't be allowed for plot reasons), it's likely to be somewhat immersion-breaking for many players. SFAIK, no-one has yet invented a feasible method of handling this in a seamless way.
    Because you didn't already break immersion by having your character do what's essentially insane? I don't think a player can justifiably complain about "immersion" when they already decided to try and break the game by attempting to kill a plot central character...
    Kurona said:

    I think the approach used by Divinity Original Sin is the most effective. You can kill anyone (with two exceptions, both god-like beings) and the plot will still continue. You can even kill every single living thing in the game, save for the aforementioned two, and still complete it. This'll certainly be harder but that's quite logical at the end of the day.

    You have a weird definition of "logical".


    I mean, what it comes down to is really that the devs at Beamdog were smart enough to know there were players who were going to try and become the ultimate cheese-dicks, because there are people who have this weird view that killing everyone and everything in sight makes you "really evil". Oh, yeah, it does; it also makes you rank as being worse than a Disney villain!
    Post edited by rapsam2003 on
    ThacoBellMirandelVbibbi
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 751
    edited February 2

    Kurona said:

    I think the approach used by Divinity Original Sin is the most effective. You can kill anyone (with two exceptions, both god-like beings) and the plot will still continue. You can even kill every single living thing in the game, save for the aforementioned two, and still complete it. This'll certainly be harder but that's quite logical at the end of the day.

    You have a weird definition of "logical".
    What isn't logical in "killing everything makes the game harder"?
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 335




    In all seriousness, does anyone really think slaughtering your guide OR killing innocents in a major city is NOT going to result in the harshest penalties?

    I don't consider spawning cheated morality police "the harshest of penalties", but a rather clumsy attempt to protect an NPC who is used as a plot device. It's the same problem as with using Imoen in BG2 to create a fake sense of urgency. It just doesn't make much sense from a roleplaying perspective. The main plot revolves around the shining lady and Brother B's machinations. Whether Corwin lives or dies should be inconsequential to it. At least in BG2 they have put a convienient wall trap in the same place you are re-connected with the plot device Imoen.

    And you can certainly finish BG 2 while engaging in wanton slaughter of civilians. (BG1 most likely too, hmm... now I have to try it :D )
    KuronaQuartzArtona
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,482
    edited February 2
    Kurona said:

    Kurona said:

    I think the approach used by Divinity Original Sin is the most effective. You can kill anyone (with two exceptions, both god-like beings) and the plot will still continue. You can even kill every single living thing in the game, save for the aforementioned two, and still complete it. This'll certainly be harder but that's quite logical at the end of the day.

    You have a weird definition of "logical".
    What isn't logical in "killing everything makes the game harder"?
    NPC: "Oh, hello, hero!"
    Player: "Prepare to die! I'm out to become the new Lord of Murder!"
    NPC: "I'm sorry my wares aren't good enough. Ahhhhh!"
    *combat starts*


    If you don't realize the ridiculousness of that kind of situation, I really can't help you.../shrug

    Just because you can doesn't mean you should! But, if you decide to, as a player, throw immersion out on its ass, don't you dare complain about immersion if a company like Beamdog sends unkillable police NPCs after you.
    chimaera said:

    In all seriousness, does anyone really think slaughtering your guide OR killing innocents in a major city is NOT going to result in the harshest penalties?

    I don't consider spawning cheated morality police "the harshest of penalties", but a rather clumsy attempt to protect an NPC who is used as a plot device.
    The point of the "cheated morality police" is to force you to basically be killed or to run, because those NPCs are basically unkillable. It's the Beamdog equivalent of the DM is pissed.
    chimaera said:

    And you can certainly finish BG 2 while engaging in wanton slaughter of civilians. (BG1 most likely too, hmm... now I have to try it :D )

    Yes, and the consequence there is loss of reputation. We all know if your reputation gets too low that NPCs attack on sight. Honestly, you're probably lucky that the coding for "Make this psycho dead! Spawn NPCs at his location now!" wasn't a thing in BG1 (and was only a thing in BG2 if you were silly enough to cast magic outdoors in Athkatla). Personally, if I'd been a dev on that team, I'd have scripted something where if you kill too many civilians, bounty hunters come after you (difficult but doable encounters); until you go raise your reputation, that is... -- it'd be the BG equivalent of "stop being a dick".

    It's ridiculous though, from an immersion point of view, to engage in wanton slaughter of the civilians! "Yeah, let's play a RPG and screw the story, because me laughing at poor (previously non-hostile) NPCs turning into chunks is more funny! Screw the fact that in no world does what I'm doing make sense!" It makes you such an edgelord!
    megamike15ThacoBellObjulenkanisatha
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 751
    edited February 2

    Kurona said:

    Kurona said:

    I think the approach used by Divinity Original Sin is the most effective. You can kill anyone (with two exceptions, both god-like beings) and the plot will still continue. You can even kill every single living thing in the game, save for the aforementioned two, and still complete it. This'll certainly be harder but that's quite logical at the end of the day.

    You have a weird definition of "logical".
    What isn't logical in "killing everything makes the game harder"?
    NPC: "Oh, hello, hero!"
    Player: "Prepare to die! I'm out to become the new Lord of Murder!"
    NPC: "I'm sorry my wares aren't good enough. Ahhhhh!"
    *combat starts*


    If you don't realize the ridiculousness of that kind of situation, I really can't help you.../shrug

    Just because you can doesn't mean you should! But, if you decide to, as a player, throw immersion out on its ass, don't you dare complain about immersion if a company like Beamdog sends unkillable police NPCs after you.
    I think you have some reading comprehension problems.

    I'm talking about how D:OS handles plot-critical NPCs in general, by being flexible enough to deal with their loss without forcing you to reload by spawning invincible death machines. It's perfectly possible to accidentally start a fight in the middle of Cyseal, sometimes even because of quests. The point was that even if you behave like a complete psycho killer, the game will still find ways to keep its plot running, but will become a lot harder due to the missed XP and the hoops you'll have to jump into to find what you have to do. That's what's logical in Larian's approach.

    In Baldur's Gate, it's also possible for fights to start by accident, like a failed pickpocket attempt. If a plot important NPC becomes hostile because of this, it means insta-death + reload.

    You're acting like only someone going into killing sprees will notice these kinds of limitations, therefore they're perfect. This is a false dichotomy.

    Also, stop being so patronizing.
    QuartzFlashburnArtona
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,482
    Kurona said:

    Also, stop being so patronizing.

    Nah, I don't think I will. And I don't really care a whole lot about flexibility, when said flexibility allows you to do things that are absolute nonsense.
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,248
    edited February 2
    @rapsam2003

    How is it ridiculous from an immersion view not to want to have anything to do with Corwin?
    As I prefer the evil alignment NPC, although I never play "evil", it's very immersive to keep away from a morally uptight, self important policewoman (apart from also usually playing a rogue).

    I don't know if you have bothered to read through this thread, but I did state that I had tried on numerous occasions just to leave her behind in BG and I wasn't allowed to, WHY?
    The thread wasn't entirely serious, just lost patience with the railroading and decided to try and kill her, that's all. The result was unexpected and amusing IMO.

    And of course, completely undermines your argument because Corwin became the target, not my charname.
    So although undoubtedly "insane" in your opinion to commit cold blooded murder in front of a huge crowd on a law abiding, fine upstanding member of the FF, the other FF thought they should join in with killing her.
    I suppose they are "insane" too?

    Perhaps you are targeting the wrong people here?
    Rather than questioning our decisions about how we want to play, you should perhaps be asking the writers/developers why, when a player tries to commit murder, the police join in?
    Now that to me is far more "immersion breaking".

    edit

    Just to add, the only part of the opening BG chapter that caused some difficulty, was the fight upstairs at "Sorcerers Sundries" which she plays no part in.
    So even if we accept that there might be a need for a companion from the beginning for a new to BGSOD player, the developers haven't implemented that at all. The one time a low level or inexperienced Charname might need backup, there is no backup.
    So what is she for?


    Quartz
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 335



    Yes, and the consequence there is loss of reputation. We all know if your reputation gets too low that NPCs attack on sight. Honestly, you're probably lucky that the coding for "Make this psycho dead! Spawn NPCs at his location now!" wasn't a thing in BG1 (and was only a thing in BG2 if you were silly enough to cast magic outdoors in Athkatla).

    Yeah, the terrible, terrible reputation loss, which can be easily atoned by throwing money at temples. Even a paladin can get away with murdering an innocent in that system. :D BG is not a tabletop game. If you try to reduce it to the "well a DM wouldn't stand for it" argument, it won't work. Because from a roleplaying perspective, the reputation = money system is even clumsier than the cheated morality police.

    Btw, you are wrong about BG2. The morality police does appear in Athkatla if you slaughter civilians, but you can kill them too, and finish the game just fine.

    Quartz
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,482
    chimaera said:

    Btw, you are wrong about BG2. The morality police does appear in Athkatla if you slaughter civilians, but you can kill them too, and finish the game just fine.

    Hmmm...it's almost like we haven't all been playing same game for like 15 years...*narrows eyes*
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 335


    Hmmm...it's almost like we haven't all been playing same game for like 15 years...*narrows eyes*

    Why don't you try it, then? Come to the darkside, we have cookies turnips. >:)

    But honestly, what would all those goody two-shoes do without evil to vanquish? Just look at the state of the Radiant Heart order in Athkatla. An evil beholder cult moves practically next door (or under door) to them, innocent civilians are getting their eyes poked out or worse, and what do the paladins do? Stage a "gnomish wives of Athkatla" reality tv show. I'd dispute that gating a pit fiend (or two, or three) should not even count as evil in this case, that's just trying to remind those paladins of their civic duty.
    Quartz
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 6,397
    A friendly reminder that disrespectful behavior is not only unhelpful but forbidden by the Site Rules, which everyone here has agreed to follow by posting on this forum. Regardless of your personal opinions and whether they conflict with other views, it is a basic requirement of the Site Rules that you treat your fellow forumites with respect.

    Patronizing or insulting speech is not acceptable on this forum.
    JuliusBorisovQuartz
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,482
    chimaera said:


    Hmmm...it's almost like we haven't all been playing same game for like 15 years...*narrows eyes*

    Why don't you try it, then? Come to the darkside, we have cookies turnips. >:)
    I almost exclusively play evil playthroughs. I just realize that going Freddy Kruger on the poor NPCs is silly.

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 335
    edited February 3

    chimaera said:


    Hmmm...it's almost like we haven't all been playing same game for like 15 years...*narrows eyes*

    Why don't you try it, then? Come to the darkside, we have cookies turnips. >:)
    I almost exclusively play evil playthroughs. I just realize that going Freddy Kruger on the poor NPCs is silly.

    Why do you assume this has anything to do with playing evil? I've said it before: within this system (that you consider such great design), even a paladin can murder innocents, because murdering innocents isn't tied to charname's alignment in Baldur's Gate.
    Well, if you don't realize the ridiculousness of that kind of design...


    edit: Actually, I recall you could slaughter innocents in original BG1 without losing any reputation. I wonder if that still work in EE & SoD... >:)
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 751

    Kurona said:

    Also, stop being so patronizing.

    Nah, I don't think I will. And I don't really care a whole lot about flexibility, when said flexibility allows you to do things that are absolute nonsense.
    This flexibility is what made Fallout 1/2 or Arcanum such great games. But you're just being obtuse on purpose now, so I'll not waste my time of you any further.
    Artona
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 12,233
    I ask all the participants of this discussion to stop talking about other posters. It doesn't do good at all, and, in several cases already, has led to violations.
    semiticgodQuartzObjulen
  • ObjulenObjulen Member Posts: 91
    If you rep drops low enough a paladin pc will fall. Not perfect, but the intent is there.
  • ZeshinXZeshinX Member Posts: 63
    edited March 2
    I used Glint in my most recent playthrough. Definitely enjoyed his company (was playing as a male half-elven fighter/mage)....until I romanced him. Apparently. That was....unexpected (not desired, but whatever lol). Unless Glint just likes kisses before marching off into the Nine Hells (sure, every little bit helps...but...dude...lol).

    At no point did I expect those conversation options to be romantic in nature, because they sure weren't written that way lol (unless you come from the George Lucas School of Romance that is). :p
    JuliusBorisovThacoBellKuronaFinneousPJ
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,030
    Yeah Glint is great, but the romance comes out of nowhere.
    Kurona
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,248
    ThacoBell said:

    Yeah Glint is great, but the romance comes out of nowhere.

    The developers should have painted some crimson rhodelias along the way. :D

    I found the same thing with Corwin, seemed to come out of the blue when she got romantic.
    ThacoBell
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,482
    edited March 3
    Really, the only romance I found obvious was Neera's romance and Safana's romance. But, of course, Neera went nutso in SoD and Safana is... basically a b**ch.

    I mean, on the one hand, there's a war on. On the other hand, both Corwin and Glint keep their real feelings close to their chest until their big reveal. It creates a bit of a disconnect. :/
    ThacoBellBigfish
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