I don't single out Alora. In the very comment you responded to, I specifically said that most thieves in bg1 are about same. And it's not just me. Like I said, prove me wrong.
Oh I should mention I'm also playing using Alora while using the ini change to add 3e backstabs. I like to use her as an archer in the beginning of fights and then move her in to flank and get backstabs off.
Edit: Just a thought, would her luck affect the sneak attack damage die?
If Alora were more reachable she would be hands down the best thief in the game (unless you're playing a low reputation set up) because you could get her FT/OL maxed out for BG the quickest of all the rogues - even faster than a PC rogue. You can also put more stuff on her - so you won't need to have a rogue for the good ol locks and traps, and then give somebody else the stabby-stabby work; she can do both. Or you can have her detect illusions and pick pockets too. Or set traps if you're into that kinda thing.
Whereas most rogues in the game will spend most of the game putting points into their 2 chosen skills and then finally flesh out one more in the closing chapters of the game.
The rabbit's foot is one of the most powerful items in the game (Armor Class: +2, Saving Throws: +2 (ON TOP OF SHORTY SAVES), Find Traps: +10%, Pick Pockets: +10%, Move Silently: +10%, Hide In Shadows: +10%, Detect Illusion: +10%, Set Traps: +10%, Luck: +2) 19 dex, and shorty saves are just that good. By level 4 rogue she would be just about maxed out in 2 categories and 60-70% in another.
I would agree that as pure-class thieves Safana and Imoen play about the same - and *both* can be dual classed to mage as well - Imoen just happens to have better stats and doesn't need the INT tome to dual. Skie can't dual to mage, and comes last of all the NPCs, and is tied to another NPC, the only difference other than that is that she has a few less HPs than Imoen. But Alora is simply a better thief because you can spread your points around much more quickly, thus gaining more utility out of the NPC slot being used - it's also not terribly hard to waste a level 2 spell slot to beef her up to 18 str. Even if the PC is a halfling rogue (or a dwarf) they'll still be behind Alora because of the rabbit's foot.
Yes but Coran is a Fighter/Thief with illegal Dexterity, illegal proficiencies, illegal Thac0 and illegal APR. Alora is a single class halfling Thief with a good luck charm.
Why illegal? Maybe he found a Manual of Quickness of Action in his travels. Afterall the PC can end the game with "illegal" values in all 6 attributes.
Whether other characters can attain it via in-game items doesn't make a base score of 20 any less illegal for an elf. "Illegal" isn't a moral judgment, it just means you can't roll a 20 dex at chargen. Nor you can put 3 pips in Longbow with a F/T. Also I remembered incorrectly, his APR isn't illegal (for some reason I thought he had a 3/2 base).
Anyways the point was that it isn't fair to compare archery prowess between a single class Thief and a Fighter/Thief buffed up specifically for this role. Coran is overengineered to be the best archer in the game. He's still a twat though
"Illegal" isn't a moral judgment, it just means you can't roll a 20 dex at chargen. Nor you can put 3 pips in Longbow with a F/T.
That's true, but Charname doesn't meet Coran at chargen. Coran is already an experienced thief when he is found, chasing wyverns on his own and having children in every port of the sword coast. While his dexterity is unusual, it'd be far from illegal for him to have found a Manual in his earlier travels. Just like how it isn't illegal for the experienced thief Alora to have already found a rabbit foot which gives her a tremendous luck bonus when she comes upon Charname.
Illegal stat score: stat higher or lower than the range allowed by race/class combination. That's ALL. Coran has illegal Dexterity. Maybe he found a manual. Minsc has illegal Wisdom. He took a blow on the head. Kagain has illegal Constitution. I don't know why and frankly I don't care, because this is entirely irrelevant to the point I was making.
And it's not even about comparing her, to other thieves or not (they are all about same, except Coran). It's literally - leave her behind in a fight, and the fight will not change much. Or, likely, at all. That is the definition of useless. Anyone willing to prove otherwise is welcome to post a stat screenshot, where Alora has, I don't know, 20% of the kills (with considerable total, obviously).
She has 75, or 14%, kills at level 6 in my game. So she's not the one I rely on the get bodies to hit the floor, but she is far from useless in combat. But this is with mods so that she 1. shows up in Gullykin 2. has access to the boomerang dagger, which is +2.
(The portrait is from the Portraits everywhere mod btw)
In most of my games I start with Imoen and then dump her for Coran, which I never replace with another thief. In this game you don't need the most powerful thief (not even in Durlag's Tower), and as you said, Coran is more useful overall, since ranged attack is what most NPCs are doing for 99% of the game. I don't bother with backstabs either, it's too much micromanagement and there are many other ways to disable bosses.
Of course, from a role playing perspective everyone should choose whoever is happy with. I just like Coran in my party, he has an interesting personality (in spite of being a "twat") instead of being a boring goody two shoes with no character. Also, if Coran somehow gets irremediably killed, I'd rather have Safana in my party...
The "problem" with using Coran as your sole thief is that you're going to be a little short changed on his thieving skills, but you can make up for that with potions for most of the game.
Alora's combat prowess is a little harder to see than Coran's. The issue is with say, a simple chant spell on her she's reducing damage die tremendously because of her rabbit's foot. If she gets hit with a fireball, she gets a rather large bonus to her normal saving throw it's +5 relative to what it should be. Then she reduced the damage die by 2 (or 3, or 4 if you put the luck spell on her). She could turn a wand of fireballs 6d6 into a 6d2 damage roll and then has a reasonably high chance of making the save essentially reducing it to 6d1. 6 damage off of a 6d6 fireball is pretty nifty lol. It's also fairly handy to have a character that *very* rarely fails to make a save lol. Even with no buffs she would only take 6d4 (and probably make the save) taking a max of 12 damage.
Her AC is also 2 better than any other rogue's could possibly be assuming you have the same equipment on both rogues (that is rogues that can still hide in shadows). So you can make a pretty solid argument for using her as a backstabber since she's relatively harder to hit. Since she already gets a pretty massive bonus to her thief skills she can afford to spend points in the stealth stats (she gets 25 free points in move silently for example).
Her luck bonus also influences her damage rolls - so it's very rare that you're going to come off with poor backstab damage at the end of the multiplier. She'll always do at least 3 damage on a hit.
In such a role however I'd suggest you keep somebody holding a strength spell for big fights to give her a better melee THACO.
I assume most people just use rogues as lock/trap monkeys though - which is why the Mage or cleric dual/multi classes are so popular. The only character that's typically built for stabby-stabby action is Shar-teel if she's dualed to thief or a PC thief.
She has 75, or 14%, kills at level 6 in my game. So she's not the one I rely on the get bodies to hit the floor, but she is far from useless in combat. But this is with mods so that she 1. shows up in Gullykin 2. has access to the boomerang dagger, which is +2.
Well, it's not quite 20, but at least not that useless, yes. Moving her to Gullykin doesn't change much, but Boomerang is obviously what gets the job done. Not sure if that's in a full party, though?
Anyway, my point is that I'd easily pick Alora even if she was the worst thief, just for being fun.
Hmm, not tried this one yet, but can Alora wear the big-fisted belt, and go crazy with a sling?
As I don't mod, the games I play Alora usually mean rushing the cloak wood mine - which is an entertaining variation on my usual completionist play-style. Much prefer to do this, than move Alora somewhere else: the recruitment is somehow more appropriate here anyway
My name is Professor Quartz; welcome to Spec a Thief 101. I hope you enjoy taking this crash course with me and find it informative.
Alora has 19 Dexterity, which means +3 THAC0 with ranged weapons. Add the +2 Luck from her Lucky Rabbit Foot and you've already got a base of 15 THAC0 at level 1, which is pretty damn low. Now you put, say, Bracers of Archery on her. 13 THAC0. Now give her the Eagle Bow you're pretty likely to pick up during the game. You're looking at 11 THAC0 if she were level 1, and by level 9 she's looking at a 7 THAC0 with 2 Attacks Per Round. 3-8 base damage -- oh wait 5-8 due to her Luck again -- if you're using plain arrows. That's plenty good enough to nab a fair few kills.
Now if anyone absolutely insists that I need to show proof this tactic will work with some decent kill percentage, I can. But then there's the argument "what if he just had everyone sit idle while Alora killed things." Etc...
As I don't mod, the games I play Alora usually mean rushing the cloak wood mine - which is an entertaining variation on my usual completionist play-style.
Rushing through the first four Chapters of the main plot to recruit the Chapter 5 NPCs doesn't stop you from going back to complete all the side-areas and side-quests later. (Except don't postpone the Aldeth/Seniyad encounter, because Aldeth won't be there after the end of Chapter 4.) I sometimes do it this way, and still count it as a completionist run.
Well, it's not quite 20, but at least not that useless, yes. Moving her to Gullykin doesn't change much, but Boomerang is obviously what gets the job done. Not sure if that's in a full party, though?
Anyway, my point is that I'd easily pick Alora even if she was the worst thief, just for being fun.
Yes, that is in a full party with Kivan the fragstealer present. The boomerang dagger does much, even though I didn't know it had been added into the game, so she's gone without it a large part of her stay in the party. Also, as @Quartz wonderous crash course shows, she can be just as efficient, or even more, with vanilla bows. Now all she needs is a proficiency point in slings.
But yes, I picked her up for her personality too. I was just surprised that she was actually that good in combat.
@Gallowglass oh, I most certainly do go back and complete all the areas once I have recruited the final party - but rushing so much of the game means playing in a very different style than I am used to, where I exhaustively complete each map in turn before moving onto the next. Having a reason to switch up the play style is definitely a good thing too
Alora isn't from Gullykin, though, she's from... I don't remember the exact name, but iirc it is one of the smaller cities up the river BG is on (or that one river to the north).
Not that I protest placing her in gullykin for the sake of early access, it's as good as any other place. Just wanted to share a bit of trivia on the character.
She's cute(which maybe the reason for her late availability? already have a cute thief at the start of Chapter 1 that is...), but heavily depends on backstab for her damage output, it's also not gonna help much to have so many thief skill points in game, a multi thief would suffice all party needs, and her superior saving throws & damage reduction don't help that much either, better kill spellcasters fast than letting them cast a spell. In powerness, I'd choose Coran over her, 20 dex, the most damaging bow npc wielder in bg1, adequate thief skills.
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And it's not just me. Like I said, prove me wrong.
Edit: Just a thought, would her luck affect the sneak attack damage die?
Whereas most rogues in the game will spend most of the game putting points into their 2 chosen skills and then finally flesh out one more in the closing chapters of the game.
The rabbit's foot is one of the most powerful items in the game (Armor Class: +2, Saving Throws: +2 (ON TOP OF SHORTY SAVES), Find Traps: +10%, Pick Pockets: +10%, Move Silently: +10%, Hide In Shadows: +10%, Detect Illusion: +10%, Set Traps: +10%, Luck: +2) 19 dex, and shorty saves are just that good. By level 4 rogue she would be just about maxed out in 2 categories and 60-70% in another.
I would agree that as pure-class thieves Safana and Imoen play about the same - and *both* can be dual classed to mage as well - Imoen just happens to have better stats and doesn't need the INT tome to dual. Skie can't dual to mage, and comes last of all the NPCs, and is tied to another NPC, the only difference other than that is that she has a few less HPs than Imoen. But Alora is simply a better thief because you can spread your points around much more quickly, thus gaining more utility out of the NPC slot being used - it's also not terribly hard to waste a level 2 spell slot to beef her up to 18 str. Even if the PC is a halfling rogue (or a dwarf) they'll still be behind Alora because of the rabbit's foot.
If I were to pick only one thief in the party, I would choose Coran because he is absolutely devastating shooting arrows from the back row.
It's hard to make a fair comparison...
Anyways the point was that it isn't fair to compare archery prowess between a single class Thief and a Fighter/Thief buffed up specifically for this role. Coran is overengineered to be the best archer in the game. He's still a twat though
Just like how it isn't illegal for the experienced thief Alora to have already found a rabbit foot which gives her a tremendous luck bonus when she comes upon Charname.
(The portrait is from the Portraits everywhere mod btw)
Of course, from a role playing perspective everyone should choose whoever is happy with. I just like Coran in my party, he has an interesting personality (in spite of being a "twat") instead of being a boring goody two shoes with no character. Also, if Coran somehow gets irremediably killed, I'd rather have Safana in my party...
Alora's combat prowess is a little harder to see than Coran's. The issue is with say, a simple chant spell on her she's reducing damage die tremendously because of her rabbit's foot. If she gets hit with a fireball, she gets a rather large bonus to her normal saving throw it's +5 relative to what it should be. Then she reduced the damage die by 2 (or 3, or 4 if you put the luck spell on her). She could turn a wand of fireballs 6d6 into a 6d2 damage roll and then has a reasonably high chance of making the save essentially reducing it to 6d1. 6 damage off of a 6d6 fireball is pretty nifty lol. It's also fairly handy to have a character that *very* rarely fails to make a save lol. Even with no buffs she would only take 6d4 (and probably make the save) taking a max of 12 damage.
Her AC is also 2 better than any other rogue's could possibly be assuming you have the same equipment on both rogues (that is rogues that can still hide in shadows). So you can make a pretty solid argument for using her as a backstabber since she's relatively harder to hit. Since she already gets a pretty massive bonus to her thief skills she can afford to spend points in the stealth stats (she gets 25 free points in move silently for example).
Her luck bonus also influences her damage rolls - so it's very rare that you're going to come off with poor backstab damage at the end of the multiplier. She'll always do at least 3 damage on a hit.
In such a role however I'd suggest you keep somebody holding a strength spell for big fights to give her a better melee THACO.
I assume most people just use rogues as lock/trap monkeys though - which is why the Mage or cleric dual/multi classes are so popular. The only character that's typically built for stabby-stabby action is Shar-teel if she's dualed to thief or a PC thief.
Anyway, my point is that I'd easily pick Alora even if she was the worst thief, just for being fun.
As I don't mod, the games I play Alora usually mean rushing the cloak wood mine - which is an entertaining variation on my usual completionist play-style. Much prefer to do this, than move Alora somewhere else: the recruitment is somehow more appropriate here anyway
Alora has 19 Dexterity, which means +3 THAC0 with ranged weapons. Add the +2 Luck from her Lucky Rabbit Foot and you've already got a base of 15 THAC0 at level 1, which is pretty damn low. Now you put, say, Bracers of Archery on her. 13 THAC0. Now give her the Eagle Bow you're pretty likely to pick up during the game. You're looking at 11 THAC0 if she were level 1, and by level 9 she's looking at a 7 THAC0 with 2 Attacks Per Round. 3-8 base damage -- oh wait 5-8 due to her Luck again -- if you're using plain arrows. That's plenty good enough to nab a fair few kills.
Now if anyone absolutely insists that I need to show proof this tactic will work with some decent kill percentage, I can. But then there's the argument "what if he just had everyone sit idle while Alora killed things." Etc...
But yes, I picked her up for her personality too. I was just surprised that she was actually that good in combat.
Not that I protest placing her in gullykin for the sake of early access, it's as good as any other place. Just wanted to share a bit of trivia on the character.
In powerness, I'd choose Coran over her, 20 dex, the most damaging bow npc wielder in bg1, adequate thief skills.