Enchanters and saving throw bonuses

Loldrup

When looking at the list of spells in the enchantment school, it shows that a lot of them requires their targets to roll a saving throw:

Enchantment spells: saving throw?
Charm Person x
Confusion x
Dire Charm x
Friends
Hold Person x
Luck
Sleep x
Slow x
Emotion-Hopelessness x
Greater Malison
Chaos x
Domination x
Feeblemind x
Hold Monster x

This should give a synergy effect for 'Enchanter' specialist mages, as the specialist mage property makes spell victims have a negative bonus on their saving throws against these enchantment spells.

Together with Greater Malison, an Enchanter will effect a whopping -6 saving throw on enemies targeted with his enchantment spells.

Are there any other schools who have a similar powerful synergy? IE. have a similar amount of spells that depends on enemies failing a saving throw?

JuliusBorisov

This is why I like enchanters. Life is so hollow.

Speaking of other schools, I vote Necromancy next. Finger of Death, for example.

Other spells, which offer a saving throw, are

Chill Touch
Ghoul Touch - for better chance of paralyzing
Contagion - for better chance of working
Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting - for lesser chance to inflict 1/2 damage
Wail of the Banshee - for better chance to one-shot enemies

CrevsDaak

@JuliusBorisov you forgot Skull Trap

I think this would be crazy with SCS... There are Necromancer Liches, and I've already had enough of them without a save penalty on their spells (I mean ADHW on Contingencies, ugh, and the classic triple Skull Trap SS).

What I think that should be nice is a Detect Illusion penalty when a Rogue is trying to detect a specialist Illusionist (also, so I can drop my thieving points somewhere after all my other skills are at 100), so that their kit isn't wasted in a Rogue with a broken skill that goes through SI:Divination and doesn't require a level 6 spell slot.

Raduziel

I just finished a full saga run with an Enchanter and all I can say is you'll be close to useless in ToB and the best resource in your team in BGEE + SoD. During BG2EE you'll need to be patience to cast some Doom and Greater Malison to be of any use, but nothing that you can't handle. And if you play your cards right, Fleeblemind will be a "I win" button against any spellcaster.

If you need some advice, feel free to call me. Good luck.

semiticgoddess

Enchanters are perfectly useful in ToB. They still have access to all of the best late-game spells: PFMW, Spell Immunity, Wish, Time Stop, Shapechange, Summon Planetar, Improved Alacrity, Dragon's Breath, Project Image, Imprisonment, and Horrid Wilting.

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Abi_Dalzim

JuliusBorisov said:

This is why I like enchanters. Life is so hollow.

Speaking of other schools, I vote Necromancy next. Finger of Death, for example.

Other spells, which offer a saving throw, are

Chill Touch
Ghoul Touch - for better chance of paralyzing
Contagion - for better chance of working
Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting - for lesser chance to inflict 1/2 damage
Wail of the Banshee - for better chance to one-shot enemies

You forgot Skull Trap - honestly, I think Necromancers might make better blasters than Invokers. Oh, and Horror, too, so a solid save or suck.

lunar

semiticgod said:

Enchanters are perfectly useful in ToB. They still have access to all of the best late-game spells: PFMW, Spell Immunity, Wish, Time Stop, Shapechange, Summon Planetar, Improved Alacrity, Dragon's Breath, Project Image, Imprisonment, and Horrid Wilting.

True, but it won't feel like playing an enchanter spamming planetars and wiltings here and there. It is just like any other mage. BG2 does not have high level enchantment spells, sadly.

Jaheiras_Witness

Nevertheless, a Chaos cast by an Enchanter preceded by Greater Malison has a -10 penalty to save. That is still pretty damn effective crowd control even in ToB

Raduziel

semiticgod said:

Enchanters are perfectly useful in ToB. They still have access to all of the best late-game spells: PFMW, Spell Immunity, Wish, Time Stop, Shapechange, Summon Planetar, Improved Alacrity, Dragon's Breath, Project Image, Imprisonment, and Horrid Wilting.

Yeah, but they are useful because they are wizards, not because they are Enchanters... a pure wizard would be more useful.

Abi_Dalzim

Raduziel said:

Yeah, but they are useful because they are wizards, not because they are Enchanters... a pure wizard would be more useful.

A pure wizard would have fewer spells. Still, a Diviner would do better than an Enchanter at that point, I'd say.

qwerty123456

I'm not sure what's the opening post premise. Having a saving throw is detrimental to the spell, obviously. Not having it, on the other hand, means that the spell will always work, and you don't need no synergy for that.

Abi_Dalzim

qwerty123456 said:

I'm not sure what's the opening post premise. Having a saving throw is detrimental to the spell, obviously. Not having it, on the other hand, means that the spell will always work, and you don't need no synergy for that.

Well, compare to Divination - I don't think any of their spells have a saving throw, so as a Diviner you don't benefit from a -2 to saves against your divination spells. As an Invoker or Enchanter or Necromancer, you've got a bunch of spells that offer saves - and, more importantly, will ruin your enemies' day if they fail - and the specialization makes it more likely that your enemy fails the save. The point is that while having a saving throw is detrimental, the spells that offer them often confer a big advantage if the other guy fails them. A better chance of getting your Web or Finger of Death or Hold Monster to work can win you fights that Haste or Ghost Armor or True Sight might not get you on their own.

Contemplative_Hamster

I WANT to like Enchanters and their mind control effects, but you know the old saying;

Candy is dandy, but Fireball is quicker.

So I've never gotten around to playing one, saving throw penalty or no. But now I'm intrugued.

ThacoBell

Its funny, fireball was my favorite spell the first few times through, but the longer I play the game, the less I like it.

JumboWheat01

It is a change going to an Enchanter. Most mages in other games tend to be simple artillery, and that's what's instilled in our minds. Evokers are nice and all, but D&D magic has such a wide variety to it that you don't find in most games, you have so many ways to build a mage, whether supportive, destructive, defensive, controlling, and various combinations inbetween.

It's always fun breaking out of our mold and trying something like a mage who can't do a lick of magical damage.

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semiticgoddess

@chimaera: True in the vanilla game, but SCS and SR both change that.

lroumen

Plenty of alteration spells that require a save. To me the transmuter is the ultimate mage.

Contemplative_Hamster

As powerful as Enchanters are, in BG, unlike in PnP roleplaying or indeed in real life, you do not progress or prosper unless you slay your enemy and steal their stuff. So enchantment spells in BG just delay or micromanage the inevitable.* In which case, the impatient, can-do Invoker or Necromancer might reasonably inquire, why not eliminate the middleman, as it were?


(*Except of course Greater Malison, which facilitates and speeds up the inevitable)

Abi_Dalzim

lroumen said:

Plenty of alteration spells that require a save. To me the transmuter is the ultimate mage.

The ultimate mage is supposed to be able to combat other mages, no? Because without the Abjuration school and Dispel Magic, Breach, Pierce Magic and the like, that seems hard to do.

CrevsDaak

The Sorcerer is the ultimate Mage, guys, unless you prefer Memorization over a static set of spells in which the Wild Mage is probably the best (has access to all the spells and gets the extra spell slots).

Abi_Dalzim

I love sorcerers, but sometimes you need an arsenal of situational spells in order to defeat a specific enemy. You can make a sorcerer with just the right spells to stand down Firkraag's entire arsenal virtually indefinitely, but they'll be subotimal in most other situations if you do. That said, the ultimate "mage" is clearly a Diviner. Conjuration spells are mostly garbage, so I'd rather lose those than have to deal with the inconsistencies of wild magic.

lroumen

Abi_Dalzim said:

lroumen said:

Plenty of alteration spells that require a save. To me the transmuter is the ultimate mage.

The ultimate mage is supposed to be able to combat other mages, no? Because without the Abjuration school and Dispel Magic, Breach, Pierce Magic and the like, that seems hard to do.

not the way i play them . I rarely use those spells. Late and mid game, ruby ray is all I need as a debuff for the cooler spells to stick. Early game transmutation spells are great versus the other fodder while the mages are not very dangerous yet.

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JumboWheat01

chimaera said:

For versality, I'll take a gnomish cleric/illusionist over any mage specialist anyway.

Nothing says total versatility and power like having divine and arcane spells at your disposal.

Abi_Dalzim

chimaera said:

That's not my experience with mages. Even with SCS or Tactics a sorcerer gets enough spells to take on all challenges (I actually had more difficulties with a solo enchanter than a solo sorcerer). The useful spell selection is not that wide in BG2; plenty of spells are just meh, if not downright useless.

For versality, I'll take a gnomish cleric/illusionist over any mage specialist anyway.

Enough to defeat everything, sure. But for any given fight there's liable to be some combination of spells that can not only defeat the encounter, but completely invalidate the enemy's entire arsenal. Like my Firkraag example. As a mage, you can use Protection from Fire, Spell Immunity: Abjuration, Spell Shield, Protection From Magical Weapons and Fireshield: Blue to all but completely shut him down and laugh in his face while he hurts himself trying to hit you. Of those spells, PFMW and Spell Immunity are prefectly good picks for a sorcerer. Protection From Fire is a little situational, but not a bad level 3 pick either. Spell Shield and Fireshield are a lot harder to justify, though, since they have to compete with Spell Immunity, Breach, Improved Invisibility, Greater Malison, Stoneskin, etc. Those two are examples of spells that can come in handy for a mage with his spellbook but a sorcerer might have to pass up on. A sorcerer commits to their tactics, but a mage can't just do anything, but pretty much everything. I'm not saying that that necessarily makes the mage superior (although in P&P they are); honestly, I think the sorcerer is still the best class in the game. Still, they suffer at least somewhat for not getting more spells.

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lroumen

Do you meta game or do you take it as it comes (my preference since I cannot be bothered to remember)?

For the first it really does not matter which class you are picking. If you know what the game comes at you with you can plan spell picking or memorisation well in advance.
For the second you probably need more pruning which spells are vital and which ones useful fluff in order to always be prepared.

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elminster

Abi_Dalzim said:

qwerty123456 said:

I'm not sure what's the opening post premise. Having a saving throw is detrimental to the spell, obviously. Not having it, on the other hand, means that the spell will always work, and you don't need no synergy for that.

Well, compare to Divination - I don't think any of their spells have a saving throw

Yep. In fact even though the mage Know Alignment spell says it needs a saving throw it actually doesn't. So the one (typically pretty useless) divination spell that mages know that might have required a saving throw doesn't actually.