You really think Alianna (in TOB) would be able to lie, in front of the Solar and in the Pocket Plane? Of all the versions, that has to be the truth. Solar directly tells some of the other spirits that are summoned that they are compelled to speak.
The timeline doesn't fit, easiest thing is to just ignore it and put it down to writers not being so hung up on what is a detail than telling a story.
And essentially the story is of a Godchild who was unaware of their heritage and the prophecy, until events force them to confront and encompass that heritage and either reject it or accept it.
The SOD bit, it's a great shame as that was the best bit of SOD (IMO) but was badly executed. No need to have a quasi Romeo and Juliet suggestion, sometimes writers don't know when to shut up.
And Gorion the Harper, yeah likely that he would have anything to do with a Bhaal worshipper?
Little of this adds up. Most importantly Alianna's statement either creates a huge-ass plothole or she is not telling the truth. What she says implies that she was still alive during the Time of Troubles and that she conceived CHARNAME and died during that time, which makes no sense. The ToT takes place ten years before the events of the game, which means CHARNAME would just be 10 years old.
The game in practice plays fast-and-loose with the timeline of the Time of Troubles and the Bhaalspawn Crisis and the age of the protagonist. Notionally the Time of Troubles was 10 years earlier and the protagonist is around 20 years old, but that age is questionable for some of the playable races, and also inconsistent with several of the official portraits (not to mention user-supplied portraits). I suspect that the devs repeatedly forgot (or perhaps wantonly ignored) the canonical timeline.
It is better to assume that Alianna was speaking loosely, counting the Time of Troubles as including the run-up to that period when Bhaal was preparing for the Troubles; perhaps from the perspective of a Bhaalist, the Troubles had already begun before the generally-recognised Time, since Bhaal was forewarned. Lacking some such assumption, then yes, Alianna's story (with which Gorion agrees, please note) makes no sense.
Nevertheless, the Solar's explicit purpose in summoning various spirits in ToB is to reveal the truth to the protagonist, and in one (other) case we even see the Solar explicitly commanding truth from a reluctant spirit, so can safely suppose that all of the spirits are required by the Solar to speak truth. If there's any inconsistency with what we had previously been told, then that must have been a deception by Gorion (or now also perhaps by Madele).
The only thing I believe Gorion lied about in his letter is the part about Alianna being raped and her dying in childbirth. Note the phrasing: "as you know, she died in childbirth." Implying that this part is old news to CHARNAME. I mean, they are ~20 years old, they must have asked Gorion plenty of times by then what happened to their mum. We know that the rest of the information in the letter holds truth.
Clearly Gorion lied about what happened to Alianna, yes - she was a willing mother, and was killed by Gorion himself during the raid on the Temple. Also look at the protagonist biography for a half-orc in BG1 - "She was an orcish caravan guard, part of a larger mercenary company that operated out of Waterdeep. Through the course of his adventuring career, Gorion grew to become her close friend." - this lie must also have come from Gorion, since the protagonist couldn't have known it otherwise.
Since we know he was lying about some details, there's no particular reason to assume that he was necessarily telling the truth about other details. Since the presumable reason for the lies was to spare the protagonist from unpleasant truth, it's very plausible that the protagonist's mother being a "friend" or "lover" of Gorion is also unreliable.
For the many years during which we didn't yet have SoD, the implication of BG2:ToB was that Gorion didn't actually know Alianna at all, meeting her only when he killed her and rescued the protagonist. Until that revelation, we had never had reason to doubt what Gorion's letter had told us in BG1, so (until ToB was released) that letter was the canonical explanation. Thus BG2:ToB appears to be a retcon of the origin story which we had been led to believe in BG1 and throughout BG2:SoA.
Now, what Madele says in SoD is not necessarily about Gorion and Alianna, but who are we fooling here, who else would it be about. We know Gorion was a Harper and that Alianna was a priestess of Bhaal, so the bill fits perfectly. Gorion was in love with her, he tried to warn her about the Harper raid, but she took her faith before him.
Agreed, we're certainly intended to assume that Madele was talking about Gorion and Alianna. She doesn't name them because the writers were considering new players who hadn't yet played BG2 and therefore weren't aware of the final truth revealed in ToB.
Madele's explanation restores some truthfulness to Gorion's letter - now we know that Gorion had after all met Alianna before killing her, but secretly. This appears to be another retcon, taking the protagonist's origin story back to something closer to the original explanation, changing what ToB had led us to assume but (quite cleverly) not explicitly contradicting ToB.
Also note that Madele thinks it was "one of his allies" who killed Alianna, although we know from ToB that it was actually Gorion himself. This inconsistency, however, is easily assumed to be merely because Madele didn't realise (in the confusion of battle) who did what.
So here is my personal explanation: Alianna's information was wrong and she died ten years before the ToT.
I don't think that's tenable. That would mean that Alianna's spirit lied in the presence of the Solar, even though the Solar's whole purpose was to reveal the final truth to the protagonist, and even though the Solar could command truth from the summoned spirits. So as I said above, I reckon that we must assume that Alianna simply counted the Time of Troubles as starting earlier than when most people count it as starting.
... That would also explain as to why Bhaalspawn can't be ressurected like other people.
Though that does open up question on how Sarevok was able to come back ._.
Not only Sarevok, but even more difficult to hand-wave is that Imoen can not only be resurrected if she dies, but even remains a Bhaalspawn after resurrection (unlike Sarevok). But that's a separate issue, not connected to the question of Gorion's deception.
Until that revelation, we had never had reason to doubt what Gorion's letter had told us in BG1, so (until ToB was released) that letter was the canonical explanation. Thus BG2:ToB appears to be a retcon of the origin story which we had been led to believe in BG1 and throughout BG2:SoA.
Dont be so sure. Sometimes storywriters make stuff up as they go along... but sometimes they have plot twists, very much on purpose...
And how do I know Lucas didnt make shit up... well, that particular shit up as he went along? Because, Darth Vader was called Darth Vader also in the first episode. And Darth Vader is only two consonants away from Dark Father.
I for one always found the official story Gorion told was a bit fishy.
If there's any inconsistency with what we had previously been told, then that must have been a deception by Gorion (or now also perhaps by Madele).
That depends on the Solars definition of truth. Truth can be viewed as the objective truth. Or truth can be viewed as a perspective; not the objective truth, but what one believes to be true, based on personal knowledge and experience.
For instance, if the soul of an average victim during the iron crisis was summoned and asked about who caused the rotten iron, they would answer that Amn did it as a ploy, plot, or false pretense to war - this common man does not know any better!
And also I just realized;
In TOB when you are confronted by mother's ghost, Sarevok turns up and says,
"He chose you not me but I was there too" (paraphrased).
The implication is that there was no reason for whom Gorion chose, it's down to luck. Or in Sarevok's case, bad luck, and he's upset about it.
"Gorion's Ward" is mentioned in the prophecies. The actual child was never important, any child taken and given that title would fulfil the prophecy (it's a title not a name or discription). Which is why Sarevok feels hard done by, it literally could have been him.
That is what Sarevok belives, yes. His truth.
However, if Gorion and Arianna had an affair, then Gorion specifically picked her child, as Gorion himself explains, because he loved her, he felt an extra responsibility toward her child!
Finally, I believe Imoen came from the same temple as Gorions ward, even if she arrived a couple of years later as someone pointed out, because her bio clearly states she just pretends to be your little sister, in reality you are roughly the same ages. Apparently, that particular temple was filled with babies* when Gorion raided it so maybe another of Gorions crew took one of the other babies, but after a couple of years realized he/she was not cut out to be a father/mother, mailed the baby to Gorion, who was to busy with his own adopted child and "asked" Winthrop if maybe he could help? Which would explain why Imoen doesnt really talk about Winthrop that much, he never loved her and she never loved him, he was more of a caretaker than a father. Fair and kind, but ultimately unloving.
(I guess the Slayer lined up all the priestesses and had a VERY busy week, before he went... on to the next temple dedicated to his glory? Maybe he didnt actually foresee his own death, he just invented that "lie" so that his priestesses would feel compelled to perform their "duty" and also build him a nifty new throne. And then when he realized, oh shit, someone really did make the "prophecy" come true he was like "Damnit!")
Well it could be that Imoen all along was surposed to the "Gorion's Ward" mentioned in the prophecies.
And the Harpers, being busybodies, decided to provide their own "Gorion's Ward" rather than leave it to chance.
Like most prophecies, coincidences and chance make them come true. Imoen, abandoned child, by chance ends up in Candlekeep with nobody aware of her heritage, goes on to fulfil the prophecy, stops the other Bhaalspawn and Faeron being wrecked.
But instead of that, the Harpers stick their oar in and provide a Bhaalspawn child because they reckon that's a better way to ensure the "Gorion's Ward" will turn out as they want them to. And of course be sympathetic to the Harpers.
So maybe Imoen can't die because she actually is the "chosen one" and the real PTB ensure that she doesn't without anybody knowing any better. Charname can die (and often does), Imoen will always show up later on?
Darth Vader was called Darth Vader also in the first episode. And Darth Vader is only two consonants away from Dark Father.
You've drifted far, far away from the galaxy topic at hand ... but this comment is entirely dependent upon an English-language assumption which is BS, since the stories of Star Wars (and Baldur's Gate) are notionally "translations" from the common language of their own scenario, not actually taking place in English.
Furthermore, if you were to suppose (equally mistakenly) that the common language was German, then "Vader" would be only one consonant away from the word for "Father" ... and if the language were Dutch, then "Vader" is already exactly the word for "Father", no letters different.
Darth Vader was called Darth Vader also in the first episode. And Darth Vader is only two consonants away from Dark Father.
... but this comment is entirely dependent upon an English-language assumption which is BS, since the stories of Star Wars (and Baldur's Gate) are notionally "translations" from the common language of their own scenario, not actually taking place in English.
'Vader' is dutch for father, just putting that out there. The name was picked on purpose, no matter what you want to believe.
If we first agree that blaming the devs for missing up the timeline is off the table, then I think we can safely assume Arianna has messed up the timeline - if I remember correctly, the pocket plane puts the witnesses under some kind of magical oath, so she MUST speak the truth.
Right, the oath, I thought about that. While highly unlikely, there is a slim possibility that the entire events in the Pocket Plane are staged. I mean, the devs defintetly did f*** that part up, that is out of question. There are a lot of lore inaccuracies throughout the series, such as Dynaheir not wearing a mask and Edwin's beard growth (the latter one is even adressed in EE). And yeah, the afformentioned part about Imoen being able to be ressurrected, which is obviously the fault of her not being originally planned to be a Bhaalspawn.
Honestly, I just wish Beamdog would go fix the timeline issue with the an update, because that bothers me to no end. But we all know how likely that is gonna happen :V (as in, not). All we can hope for is that the Blackhound is still gonna happen at some point and come up with an explanation (also, I asked Josh Sawyer [who was one of the people working on it] this in one of the Obsidian livestreams, apparently little to none of the original ideas from that project made it into any other project that came after. That means the story - how much story there may have been in the first place - could still be realized).
It is better to assume that Alianna was speaking loosely
But she didn't she explicitly said: "In the Time of Troubles did Bhaal himself came to whisper in my ear. I was to give birth to one of the Children, to you." There is nothing loose about that. Alianna was alive during the ToT, she conceived CHARNAME in the same time. It is likely that she was still pregnant when Bhaal died and that CHARNAME was the last Bhaalspawn to be born at that temple, meaning the ritual was held short - if not immediatly - after birth.
Also look at the protagonist biography for a half-orc in BG1 - "She was an orcish caravan guard, part of a larger mercenary company that operated out of Waterdeep. Through the course of his adventuring career, Gorion grew to become her close friend." - this lie must also have come from Gorion, since the protagonist couldn't have known it otherwise.
Not necessarily. Sorry to go into TMI territory, but I came up with all sorts of explanations as to how my dad died when I was little, because my elders refused to tell me what had happened to him :V (Man, f*** adults.) It is very likely that CHARNAME could have done the same, that mixed with speculations and lies by other people could have easily just turned this idea into the one most likely explanation for CHARNAME to accept. When you don't get an explanation, you make your own one. *Points at the entirety of the threat*
Also, as I pointed out already, it is it perfectly possible that Alianna had led a different live before becoming a priestess. Who says she can't have been a mercenary before joining the temple or that she was working undercover as one (since, you know, Bhaal is all about assassination and all that jazz, which usually requires some matter f secrecy).
If anyone else reading this is interested, here is the section Gallowglass is refering to:
Also Madele's explanation restores some truthfulness to Gorion's letter - now we know that Gorion had after all met Alianna before killing her, but secretly. This appears to be another retcon, taking the protagonist's origin story back to something closer to the original explanation, changing what ToB had led us to assume but (quite cleverly) not explicitly contradicting ToB.
It's not a retcon because it's not a contradiction. Didn't I point this out already? People fall in love with people they shouldn't fall for all the time. Love turns people into bloody idiots. Just because he ended up killing her doesn't mean she can't have loved her.
Until that revelation, we had never had reason to doubt what Gorion's letter had told us in BG1, so (until ToB was released) that letter was the canonical explanation. Thus BG2:ToB appears to be a retcon of the origin story which we had been led to believe in BG1 and throughout BG2:SoA.
Dont be so sure. Sometimes storywriters make stuff up as they go along... but sometimes they have plot twists, very much on purpose...
If there's any inconsistency with what we had previously been told, then that must have been a deception by Gorion (or now also perhaps by Madele).
That depends on the Solars definition of truth. Truth can be viewed as the objective truth. Or truth can be viewed as a perspective; not the objective truth, but what one believes to be true, based on personal knowledge and experience.
For instance, if the soul of an average victim during the iron crisis was summoned and asked about who caused the rotten iron, they would answer that Amn did it as a ploy, plot, or false pretense to war - this common man does not know any better!
And also I just realized;
In TOB when you are confronted by mother's ghost, Sarevok turns up and says,
"He chose you not me but I was there too" (paraphrased).
The implication is that there was no reason for whom Gorion chose, it's down to luck. Or in Sarevok's case, bad luck, and he's upset about it.
"Gorion's Ward" is mentioned in the prophecies. The actual child was never important, any child taken and given that title would fulfil the prophecy (it's a title not a name or discription). Which is why Sarevok feels hard done by, it literally could have been him.
That is what Sarevok believes, yes. His truth.
However, if Gorion and Arianna had an affair, then Gorion specifically picked her child, as Gorion himself explains, because he loved her, he felt an extra responsibility toward her child!
All of this.
I hope I didn't miss anything of relevance :V
PS: We could just assume that in-game the ToT simply happened ~20 years before BG1 starts (either moving it back ten years or moving BG ten years forward), but that creates a whole new set of inconsistencies and plot-holes.
But she didn't she explicitly said: "In the Time of Troubles did Bhaal himself came to whisper in my ear. I was to give birth to one of the Children, to you." There is nothing loose about that. Alianna was alive during the ToT, she conceived CHARNAME in the same time. It is likely that she was still pregnant when Bhaal died and that CHARNAME was the last Bhaalspawn to be born at that temple, meaning the ritual was held short - if not immediatly - after birth.
I have always had the impression that some Bhaalspawns are older than others - at least the orc, the frost giant and the monk in ToB strikes me as older than twenty-five-ish (or however many years have passed since BG1 and ToB).
Remember that deities can send avatars to walk the earth whenever they so feel inclined. Bhaal foresaw his own death, and could have started making babies long before the ToT - in fact, look at the statue breaking scene in BG1 after you defeat Sarevok. There is A LOT of Bhaalspawns.
To me, the most likely is that Alianna either have messed up the timeline, misspoke or simplified - none of those would constitute a lie.
Edit: Wait, I must recant half of what I just said. I just realized there are NO Bhaalspawn younger than 20. Sorry devs, I tried my best, but you really did mess up the timeline by ten years. I stand by my statement that some Bhaalspawns are older than Gorions ward, however.
1. Fellow NPC party members are not actually epic-level powerful. The only reason they are is for game balance. In reality, only Charname is able to reach this level of power because of his divine blood. Most people in the Realms are level 5 or below, after all.
2. I play a cleric/ranger but used EEKeeper to add Use Any Item to remove blunt restrictions. My logic is to play Charname like a favored soul of sorts: Just a ranger, but also gains divine spells as he further taps into his Divine blood.
3. Khalid and Jaheira where well known to both Charname and Imoen, acting as adoptive aunt and uncle and being the ones to train Charname in the basics of combat. I also headcanon out the Jaheira romance and have her more as a mother figure, because she really ought to have stayed as such. Additionally, I have her die during the Ployer quest, giving Charname personal reason to go off on a rampage eradicating the slave trade in Athkatla.
4. In order to leave some quests for after I rescue Imoen, I headcanon that Charname needs to hunt for traces of Irenicus in the east of Amn, and that the quests in the area are looking for clues by dealing with the allies he has amassed to assault Suldenessellar. (because honestly, you can get the 15k you need to sail to Brynnlaw after one quest if you sell all your loot)
5. Because my Charname would never travel with outright evil companions, I headcanon that Viconia and Korgan are Chaotic Neutral rather than evil
6. I wish I could make a mod of this, but I like to think that Solar is actually Bhaal in disguise, and he tries to help you defeat all your siblings so you contain all the essence, and he can then consume you. I'd love it if this is revealed after defeating Melissan and he becomes the real final boss.
7. I also wish that ToB had some RotK style battles where you had to amass an army to fight against the forces of the Five while you deal with them directly. Then it gives all the NPCs not in my party something to do. I love the idea of Keldorn going out King Theoden style after leading the Order in a bid to save the citizens of Saradush from Yaga Shura.
8. To explain Imoen being able to be raised from the dead, I just assume that "dead" is more like "mortally wounded" or a KO rather than actual death.
9. I also make Carsomyr an Anduril expy for my ranger, something he receives in late BG2 as a boon from Amaunator. Despite being heroic originally, my Charname learns the hard way in SoD how he will be rewarded for it, and becomes bitter as he struggles to resist the pull of Bhaal's blood. He goes fallen ranger in BG2 as he does whatever it takes to rescue his closest friend, which leads to him becoming prideful and callous as he grows in power. When he rescues Imoen, he pursues the Imoen romance, but despite her reciprocating her inevitable regret leads to him realizing that he's been dragging all of his friends through his own personal destiny and it's done nothing but get them killed or permanently traumatized. Deciding he's taken advantage of his sibling, and realizing his dark taint has been subtly leading him towards outright becoming evil, his guilt pushes him to leave in the night and go solo, which brings him to Imnesvale and the outlying regions, where he eventually redeems his ranger status and is rewarded for it with Carsomyr.
Anyways, some of it's probably lame but I thought I'd throw in my own head canon.
I find the idea that halflings are so tiny to be ridiculous since it would make zero sense that something that can't reach above your butt can ie backstab you or do anything vs you in a battle.
To be fair there are some important arteries in the thighs that you really don't want some tiny thighstabbing bugger to sever.
As for headcanon, SoD didn't really happen. As much as I enjoyed playing it, my headcanon was already laid out about that. My interpretation of the intro to BG2 has always been that charname was going slightly bonkers after the fight with Sarevok. There had been a lot of traumatic events and strange revelations in a very short period of time after all. So charname leaves Baldur's gate and wanders alone in strange lands, slowly losing their mind and grip of reality as they try to make sense of the whole Bhaal thing.
Then the canon party finds them and tries to get charname back to their senses. And then Irenicus comes along just as charname is about to regain their sanity. Nice job there, Jon. I think it fits rather well with the darker turn BG2 took.
Which is likely having gone through BG, made a lot of money and really being fit for not much else than being an adventurer. So would carry on but less focused, oddjob here and there. And depending on character, either tried to come to terms with the heritage, was sent mad by the heritage, or tried to ignore the heritage.
As for headcanon, SoD didn't really happen. As much as I enjoyed playing it, my headcanon was already laid out about that. My interpretation of the intro to BG2 has always been that charname was going slightly bonkers after the fight with Sarevok. There had been a lot of traumatic events and strange revelations in a very short period of time after all. So charname leaves Baldur's gate and wanders alone in strange lands, slowly losing their mind and grip of reality as they try to make sense of the whole Bhaal thing.
Then the canon party finds them and tries to get charname back to their senses. And then Irenicus comes along just as charname is about to regain their sanity. Nice job there, Jon. I think it fits rather well with the darker turn BG2 took.
I feel the same way and really like the spin you put on it where Charname goes a bit bonkers. It makes a lot of sense, honestly, because both having a literal inner demon messing with you and constantly experiencing the most traumatic things one in the Realms could possibly experience, Charname should absolutely have some serious PTSD at the least.
Which is likely having gone through BG, made a lot of money and really being fit for not much else than being an adventurer. So would carry on but less focused, oddjob here and there. And depending on character, either tried to come to terms with the heritage, was sent mad by the heritage, or tried to ignore the heritage.
I really don't like that there isn't any "gap years" like you've said, and that Charname goes from Candlekeep whelp to Epic Level demi-god singlehandedly killing hordes of Beholders, Mind flayers, Drow, Giants, dragons, demons, etc. all in the span of not even 2 years.
So, likewise, I headcanon that in between each game is a significant span of years where many other things took place, and the games are just the most important parts of Charname's life, kind of like how Ezio was treated in Assassin's Creed. I want my Charname to be like, in his 30's-40's at the earliest by ToB.
Wait, I must recant half of what I just said. I just realized there are NO Bhaalspawn younger than 20. Sorry devs, I tried my best, but you really did mess up the timeline by ten years. I stand by my statement that some Bhaalspawns are older than Gorions ward, however.
Is that specifically mentioned? I do not recall that...
Now that you say it, yeah, where is that mentioned? I just remember other players pointing out CHARNAME's canonical age, but no official sources
Well, I just kind of figure the Bhaal-Spawn city would be crawling with snooty brats, aged anywhere from 15 to 24 (if we assume Gorions Ward is 25 at the start of ToB) if Bhaal had had another ten years of planting his seed. Also during your adventures in BG1, maybe you would meet just one Bhaalspawn child* or in BG2 just one twelve year old Bhaalspawn child.
* Or perhaps not, Sarevok seems to be able to somehow sniff out other Bhaalspawns, as is seen in the introduction, and I would surmise 10 year olds are easier to kill than 20 year olds, so he could have wiped Baldurs Gate and all surrounding lands free of Bhaalspawn children. But at least 12 y o in BG2 should exist.
Edit: Oh, and also, what happens to children of Bhaalspawn, do they inherit some essence from their parents? Because this is after all a mix of the middle ages (if we look at the technology) and the renesiance (how do you spell that?) (if we look at the general blokes enlightenment), so I would expect most farmers girl Bhaalspawn to be wed at 14 and have their own hockey team at the age of 25.
Sorry I might be misinterpreting but are we asking where it says Charname is 20? If so it's in the prologue.
No I am asking where the lore is documented that all *other* Bhaalspawn are also only max in their 20s. Charname I know indeed from the first screen you see in BG1 .
I don't know how old Alaundo got, but he arrived in Candlekeep in 75 DR and BG takes place in 1368 DR. So unless Alaundo lived an unnaturally long live, it is reasonable to assume that he made the prophecy within +/-50 years of that date.
I don't know how long Bhaal has been a god either, but I do know that Tyr joined the pantheon roughly a millenium ago and is still considered a "new" god, which means most other gods - who are not documented to coming into power after that - would be older than a millenium, which would include Bhaal.
So a Bhaalspawn could theoretically be any age between ten and 1300-ish years.
Though it is of course in question wether or not Alaundo already had a reputation for making absolutely truthful prophecies.
PS: Does that mean a Bhaalspawn born in year 0 would be the equivalent of the anti-christ? >.> PPS: Abdel Adrian was born in 1343 DR which makes him 25 years old. He also lived to becoming 136 years old despite being human and not being a mage/ sorcerer. Viekang got around to be the same age.
Tell that Wizards of the Coast Also, from what I've read about Murder in Baldur's Gate ...
... you actually get the opportunity kill him off in that one, which is nice.
When I finally do run Murder in Baldur's Gate (I bought it a while back) I plan to replace Abdel with one of my own Bhaalspawn and that they're living with Aerie in Baldur's Gate with their child. I'm glad it's so easy to edit PnP stories.
I just discovered this thread. This is my kind of thing.
It's time for some False Lore!
There was a time when giant spiders were not evil. Certainly, they occasionally snatched away unsuspecting travelers and ate them, but that was just because they were hungry. Can you blame them? Other animals do that too; it's hardly a sign of malevolence.
However, over the years, the morals of spiders were much tainted by the drow. These evil elves saw the spiders that infested their underground homes not only as evil but as perfect role models. The drow became so infatuated with spiders that a few of the stupider dark elves began to worship them. And thus, Lolth, the Goddess of Spiders, started to gain power.
Lolth had already existed for a long time, as she was the patron of the many sentient spiders living throughout Toril. Since these enlightened spiders weren't usually evil, neither was Lolth. But when the foolish drow started projecting their ideas of evil onto the spiders, Lolth began to take a much eviller tone.
The now-evil Lolth decided to make the spiders of the Underdark evil as well. She turned them into bloodthirsty monsters who killed not for food but for pleasure. The drow could no longer see spiders as anything but reflections of themselves, and as time went on, more and more of them began to worship Lolth. As Lolth's power spread, she also began to taint the spiders on the surface, turning them into what they are today. Only the sentient spiders have managed to avoid becoming evil, and even they have suffered from Lolth's ascendance. When previously almost all of them had been good, they are now mostly neutral, and a few are evil.
My headcanon consists of a Bard Charname who never faces Irenicus at all but makes the acquaintance of a plane-hopping Freddie Mercury while rescuing Haer'Dalis from the Planar Prison. They decide to travel together across the multiverse spreading a mixture of camp and awesome.
Don't, how many of us just quick-cocktail through that these days?
That should be "quick-click". Damp tou autoconnect!
Shatter my illusions why don't you?
There was I, picturing BG players the world over in evening gowns and tuxedos, sipping on Martinis around the piano, while the game played in the background.
My headcanon consists of a Bard Charname who never faces Irenicus at all but makes the acquaintance of a plane-hopping Freddie Mercury while rescuing Haer'Dalis from the Planar Prison. They decide to travel together across the multiverse spreading a mixture of camp and awesome.
Comments
You really think Alianna (in TOB) would be able to lie, in front of the Solar and in the Pocket Plane?
Of all the versions, that has to be the truth.
Solar directly tells some of the other spirits that are summoned that they are compelled to speak.
The timeline doesn't fit, easiest thing is to just ignore it and put it down to writers not being so hung up on what is a detail than telling a story.
And essentially the story is of a Godchild who was unaware of their heritage and the prophecy, until events force them to confront and encompass that heritage and either reject it or accept it.
The SOD bit, it's a great shame as that was the best bit of SOD (IMO) but was badly executed. No need to have a quasi Romeo and Juliet suggestion, sometimes writers don't know when to shut up.
And Gorion the Harper, yeah likely that he would have anything to do with a Bhaal worshipper?
It is better to assume that Alianna was speaking loosely, counting the Time of Troubles as including the run-up to that period when Bhaal was preparing for the Troubles; perhaps from the perspective of a Bhaalist, the Troubles had already begun before the generally-recognised Time, since Bhaal was forewarned. Lacking some such assumption, then yes, Alianna's story (with which Gorion agrees, please note) makes no sense.
Nevertheless, the Solar's explicit purpose in summoning various spirits in ToB is to reveal the truth to the protagonist, and in one (other) case we even see the Solar explicitly commanding truth from a reluctant spirit, so can safely suppose that all of the spirits are required by the Solar to speak truth. If there's any inconsistency with what we had previously been told, then that must have been a deception by Gorion (or now also perhaps by Madele). Clearly Gorion lied about what happened to Alianna, yes - she was a willing mother, and was killed by Gorion himself during the raid on the Temple. Also look at the protagonist biography for a half-orc in BG1 - "She was an orcish caravan guard, part of a larger mercenary company that operated out of Waterdeep. Through the course of his adventuring career, Gorion grew to become her close friend." - this lie must also have come from Gorion, since the protagonist couldn't have known it otherwise.
Since we know he was lying about some details, there's no particular reason to assume that he was necessarily telling the truth about other details. Since the presumable reason for the lies was to spare the protagonist from unpleasant truth, it's very plausible that the protagonist's mother being a "friend" or "lover" of Gorion is also unreliable.
For the many years during which we didn't yet have SoD, the implication of BG2:ToB was that Gorion didn't actually know Alianna at all, meeting her only when he killed her and rescued the protagonist. Until that revelation, we had never had reason to doubt what Gorion's letter had told us in BG1, so (until ToB was released) that letter was the canonical explanation. Thus BG2:ToB appears to be a retcon of the origin story which we had been led to believe in BG1 and throughout BG2:SoA. Agreed, we're certainly intended to assume that Madele was talking about Gorion and Alianna. She doesn't name them because the writers were considering new players who hadn't yet played BG2 and therefore weren't aware of the final truth revealed in ToB.
Madele's explanation restores some truthfulness to Gorion's letter - now we know that Gorion had after all met Alianna before killing her, but secretly. This appears to be another retcon, taking the protagonist's origin story back to something closer to the original explanation, changing what ToB had led us to assume but (quite cleverly) not explicitly contradicting ToB.
Also note that Madele thinks it was "one of his allies" who killed Alianna, although we know from ToB that it was actually Gorion himself. This inconsistency, however, is easily assumed to be merely because Madele didn't realise (in the confusion of battle) who did what. I don't think that's tenable. That would mean that Alianna's spirit lied in the presence of the Solar, even though the Solar's whole purpose was to reveal the final truth to the protagonist, and even though the Solar could command truth from the summoned spirits. So as I said above, I reckon that we must assume that Alianna simply counted the Time of Troubles as starting earlier than when most people count it as starting. Not only Sarevok, but even more difficult to hand-wave is that Imoen can not only be resurrected if she dies, but even remains a Bhaalspawn after resurrection (unlike Sarevok). But that's a separate issue, not connected to the question of Gorion's deception.
Dont be so sure. Sometimes storywriters make stuff up as they go along... but sometimes they have plot twists, very much on purpose...
And how do I know Lucas didnt make shit up... well, that particular shit up as he went along?
Because, Darth Vader was called Darth Vader also in the first episode. And Darth Vader is only two consonants away from Dark Father.
I for one always found the official story Gorion told was a bit fishy.
That depends on the Solars definition of truth. Truth can be viewed as the objective truth. Or truth can be viewed as a perspective; not the objective truth, but what one believes to be true, based on personal knowledge and experience.
For instance, if the soul of an average victim during the iron crisis was summoned and asked about who caused the rotten iron, they would answer that Amn did it as a ploy, plot, or false pretense to war - this common man does not know any better!
And also I just realized;
"He chose you not me but I was there too" (paraphrased).
The implication is that there was no reason for whom Gorion chose, it's down to luck. Or in Sarevok's case, bad luck, and he's upset about it.
"Gorion's Ward" is mentioned in the prophecies.
The actual child was never important, any child taken and given that title would fulfil the prophecy (it's a title not a name or discription).
Which is why Sarevok feels hard done by, it literally could have been him.
That is what Sarevok belives, yes. His truth.
However, if Gorion and Arianna had an affair, then Gorion specifically picked her child, as Gorion himself explains, because he loved her, he felt an extra responsibility toward her child!
Finally, I believe Imoen came from the same temple as Gorions ward, even if she arrived a couple of years later as someone pointed out, because her bio clearly states she just pretends to be your little sister, in reality you are roughly the same ages. Apparently, that particular temple was filled with babies* when Gorion raided it so maybe another of Gorions crew took one of the other babies, but after a couple of years realized he/she was not cut out to be a father/mother, mailed the baby to Gorion, who was to busy with his own adopted child and "asked" Winthrop if maybe he could help? Which would explain why Imoen doesnt really talk about Winthrop that much, he never loved her and she never loved him, he was more of a caretaker than a father. Fair and kind, but ultimately unloving.
(I guess the Slayer lined up all the priestesses and had a VERY busy week, before he went... on to the next temple dedicated to his glory? Maybe he didnt actually foresee his own death, he just invented that "lie" so that his priestesses would feel compelled to perform their "duty" and also build him a nifty new throne. And then when he realized, oh shit, someone really did make the "prophecy" come true he was like "Damnit!")
Well it could be that Imoen all along was surposed to the "Gorion's Ward" mentioned in the prophecies.
And the Harpers, being busybodies, decided to provide their own "Gorion's Ward" rather than leave it to chance.
Like most prophecies, coincidences and chance make them come true. Imoen, abandoned child, by chance ends up in Candlekeep with nobody aware of her heritage, goes on to fulfil the prophecy, stops the other Bhaalspawn and Faeron being wrecked.
But instead of that, the Harpers stick their oar in and provide a Bhaalspawn child because they reckon that's a better way to ensure the "Gorion's Ward" will turn out as they want them to.
And of course be sympathetic to the Harpers.
So maybe Imoen can't die because she actually is the "chosen one" and the real PTB ensure that she doesn't without anybody knowing any better.
Charname can die (and often does), Imoen will always show up later on?
galaxytopic at hand ... but this comment is entirely dependent upon an English-language assumption which is BS, since the stories of Star Wars (and Baldur's Gate) are notionally "translations" from the common language of their own scenario, not actually taking place in English.Furthermore, if you were to suppose (equally mistakenly) that the common language was German, then "Vader" would be only one consonant away from the word for "Father" ... and if the language were Dutch, then "Vader" is already exactly the word for "Father", no letters different.
The name was picked on purpose, no matter what you want to believe.
Back on topic: Right, the oath, I thought about that. While highly unlikely, there is a slim possibility that the entire events in the Pocket Plane are staged. I mean, the devs defintetly did f*** that part up, that is out of question. There are a lot of lore inaccuracies throughout the series, such as Dynaheir not wearing a mask and Edwin's beard growth (the latter one is even adressed in EE). And yeah, the afformentioned part about Imoen being able to be ressurrected, which is obviously the fault of her not being originally planned to be a Bhaalspawn.
Honestly, I just wish Beamdog would go fix the timeline issue with the an update, because that bothers me to no end. But we all know how likely that is gonna happen :V (as in, not). All we can hope for is that the Blackhound is still gonna happen at some point and come up with an explanation (also, I asked Josh Sawyer [who was one of the people working on it] this in one of the Obsidian livestreams, apparently little to none of the original ideas from that project made it into any other project that came after. That means the story - how much story there may have been in the first place - could still be realized).
But she didn't she explicitly said: "In the Time of Troubles did Bhaal himself came to whisper in my ear. I was to give birth to one of the Children, to you." There is nothing loose about that. Alianna was alive during the ToT, she conceived CHARNAME in the same time. It is likely that she was still pregnant when Bhaal died and that CHARNAME was the last Bhaalspawn to be born at that temple, meaning the ritual was held short - if not immediatly - after birth.
Not necessarily. Sorry to go into TMI territory, but I came up with all sorts of explanations as to how my dad died when I was little, because my elders refused to tell me what had happened to him :V (Man, f*** adults.) It is very likely that CHARNAME could have done the same, that mixed with speculations and lies by other people could have easily just turned this idea into the one most likely explanation for CHARNAME to accept. When you don't get an explanation, you make your own one. *Points at the entirety of the threat*
Also, as I pointed out already, it is it perfectly possible that Alianna had led a different live before becoming a priestess. Who says she can't have been a mercenary before joining the temple or that she was working undercover as one (since, you know, Bhaal is all about assassination and all that jazz, which usually requires some matter f secrecy).
If anyone else reading this is interested, here is the section Gallowglass is refering to:
It's not a retcon because it's not a contradiction. Didn't I point this out already? People fall in love with people they shouldn't fall for all the time. Love turns people into bloody idiots. Just because he ended up killing her doesn't mean she can't have loved her.
All of this.
I hope I didn't miss anything of relevance :V
PS: We could just assume that in-game the ToT simply happened ~20 years before BG1 starts (either moving it back ten years or moving BG ten years forward), but that creates a whole new set of inconsistencies and plot-holes.
The time of troubles lasted one year.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_Troubles_(Forgotten_Realms)
I have always had the impression that some Bhaalspawns are older than others - at least the orc, the frost giant and the monk in ToB strikes me as older than twenty-five-ish (or however many years have passed since BG1 and ToB).
Remember that deities can send avatars to walk the earth whenever they so feel inclined. Bhaal foresaw his own death, and could have started making babies long before the ToT - in fact, look at the statue breaking scene in BG1 after you defeat Sarevok. There is A LOT of Bhaalspawns.
To me, the most likely is that Alianna either have messed up the timeline, misspoke or simplified - none of those would constitute a lie.
Edit: Wait, I must recant half of what I just said. I just realized there are NO Bhaalspawn younger than 20. Sorry devs, I tried my best, but you really did mess up the timeline by ten years. I stand by my statement that some Bhaalspawns are older than Gorions ward, however.
1. Fellow NPC party members are not actually epic-level powerful. The only reason they are is for game balance. In reality, only Charname is able to reach this level of power because of his divine blood. Most people in the Realms are level 5 or below, after all.
2. I play a cleric/ranger but used EEKeeper to add Use Any Item to remove blunt restrictions. My logic is to play Charname like a favored soul of sorts: Just a ranger, but also gains divine spells as he further taps into his Divine blood.
3. Khalid and Jaheira where well known to both Charname and Imoen, acting as adoptive aunt and uncle and being the ones to train Charname in the basics of combat. I also headcanon out the Jaheira romance and have her more as a mother figure, because she really ought to have stayed as such. Additionally, I have her die during the Ployer quest, giving Charname personal reason to go off on a rampage eradicating the slave trade in Athkatla.
4. In order to leave some quests for after I rescue Imoen, I headcanon that Charname needs to hunt for traces of Irenicus in the east of Amn, and that the quests in the area are looking for clues by dealing with the allies he has amassed to assault Suldenessellar. (because honestly, you can get the 15k you need to sail to Brynnlaw after one quest if you sell all your loot)
5. Because my Charname would never travel with outright evil companions, I headcanon that Viconia and Korgan are Chaotic Neutral rather than evil
6. I wish I could make a mod of this, but I like to think that Solar is actually Bhaal in disguise, and he tries to help you defeat all your siblings so you contain all the essence, and he can then consume you. I'd love it if this is revealed after defeating Melissan and he becomes the real final boss.
7. I also wish that ToB had some RotK style battles where you had to amass an army to fight against the forces of the Five while you deal with them directly. Then it gives all the NPCs not in my party something to do. I love the idea of Keldorn going out King Theoden style after leading the Order in a bid to save the citizens of Saradush from Yaga Shura.
8. To explain Imoen being able to be raised from the dead, I just assume that "dead" is more like "mortally wounded" or a KO rather than actual death.
9. I also make Carsomyr an Anduril expy for my ranger, something he receives in late BG2 as a boon from Amaunator. Despite being heroic originally, my Charname learns the hard way in SoD how he will be rewarded for it, and becomes bitter as he struggles to resist the pull of Bhaal's blood. He goes fallen ranger in BG2 as he does whatever it takes to rescue his closest friend, which leads to him becoming prideful and callous as he grows in power. When he rescues Imoen, he pursues the Imoen romance, but despite her reciprocating her inevitable regret leads to him realizing that he's been dragging all of his friends through his own personal destiny and it's done nothing but get them killed or permanently traumatized. Deciding he's taken advantage of his sibling, and realizing his dark taint has been subtly leading him towards outright becoming evil, his guilt pushes him to leave in the night and go solo, which brings him to Imnesvale and the outlying regions, where he eventually redeems his ranger status and is rewarded for it with Carsomyr.
Anyways, some of it's probably lame but I thought I'd throw in my own head canon.
As for headcanon, SoD didn't really happen. As much as I enjoyed playing it, my headcanon was already laid out about that. My interpretation of the intro to BG2 has always been that charname was going slightly bonkers after the fight with Sarevok. There had been a lot of traumatic events and strange revelations in a very short period of time after all. So charname leaves Baldur's gate and wanders alone in strange lands, slowly losing their mind and grip of reality as they try to make sense of the whole Bhaal thing.
Then the canon party finds them and tries to get charname back to their senses. And then Irenicus comes along just as charname is about to regain their sanity. Nice job there, Jon. I think it fits rather well with the darker turn BG2 took.
I prefer a version of your headcannon as well.
Basically, Charname takes a "Gap Year".
Which is likely having gone through BG, made a lot of money and really being fit for not much else than being an adventurer. So would carry on but less focused, oddjob here and there. And depending on character, either tried to come to terms with the heritage, was sent mad by the heritage, or tried to ignore the heritage.
* Or perhaps not, Sarevok seems to be able to somehow sniff out other Bhaalspawns, as is seen in the introduction, and I would surmise 10 year olds are easier to kill than 20 year olds, so he could have wiped Baldurs Gate and all surrounding lands free of Bhaalspawn children. But at least 12 y o in BG2 should exist.
Edit: Oh, and also, what happens to children of Bhaalspawn, do they inherit some essence from their parents? Because this is after all a mix of the middle ages (if we look at the technology) and the renesiance (how do you spell that?) (if we look at the general blokes enlightenment), so I would expect most farmers girl Bhaalspawn to be wed at 14 and have their own hockey team at the age of 25.
Charname I know indeed from the first screen you see in BG1
I don't know how long Bhaal has been a god either, but I do know that Tyr joined the pantheon roughly a millenium ago and is still considered a "new" god, which means most other gods - who are not documented to coming into power after that - would be older than a millenium, which would include Bhaal.
So a Bhaalspawn could theoretically be any age between ten and 1300-ish years.
Though it is of course in question wether or not Alaundo already had a reputation for making absolutely truthful prophecies.
PS: Does that mean a Bhaalspawn born in year 0 would be the equivalent of the anti-christ? >.>
PPS: Abdel Adrian was born in 1343 DR which makes him 25 years old. He also lived to becoming 136 years old despite being human and not being a mage/ sorcerer. Viekang got around to be the same age.
Also, from what I've read about Murder in Baldur's Gate ...
It's time for some False Lore!
There was a time when giant spiders were not evil. Certainly, they occasionally snatched away unsuspecting travelers and ate them, but that was just because they were hungry. Can you blame them? Other animals do that too; it's hardly a sign of malevolence.
However, over the years, the morals of spiders were much tainted by the drow. These evil elves saw the spiders that infested their underground homes not only as evil but as perfect role models. The drow became so infatuated with spiders that a few of the stupider dark elves began to worship them. And thus, Lolth, the Goddess of Spiders, started to gain power.
Lolth had already existed for a long time, as she was the patron of the many sentient spiders living throughout Toril. Since these enlightened spiders weren't usually evil, neither was Lolth. But when the foolish drow started projecting their ideas of evil onto the spiders, Lolth began to take a much eviller tone.
The now-evil Lolth decided to make the spiders of the Underdark evil as well. She turned them into bloodthirsty monsters who killed not for food but for pleasure. The drow could no longer see spiders as anything but reflections of themselves, and as time went on, more and more of them began to worship Lolth. As Lolth's power spread, she also began to taint the spiders on the surface, turning them into what they are today. Only the sentient spiders have managed to avoid becoming evil, and even they have suffered from Lolth's ascendance. When previously almost all of them had been good, they are now mostly neutral, and a few are evil.
It's fabulous.
Shatter my illusions why don't you?
There was I, picturing BG players the world over in evening gowns and tuxedos, sipping on Martinis around the piano, while the game played in the background.