Wow, bad story progression cues
SeraphX2
Member Posts: 4
So, I do all of the areas except Dragonspear Castle. When I get back to camp, I am told to go meet with Caelar, not knowing this is a conversation that will start war. My next stop was to go to Dragonspear Castle after unloading and resting. Since I was told to do something, I decided to go ahead and do it. Now, because of the way I save, I am totally locked out of a zone I didn't even get a chance to explore without going all the way back to the second bridge... That's a crap-ton of gameplay to replay. Dragonspear Castle has several key quest chains in it that I can't do with this character without going back 2 nights worth of gameplay or starting a new player.
The trigger for the next phase should have come from something in the Dragonspear Castle area, not the fact that I planted the barrel.......seriously? Or, better yet, a combination of two things of the barrel and something from the Castle. You can't guarantee the order people will do things in. I like to keep a minimum of saves so that I have to live with the consequences of certain choices, but to push me in a direction with no out because I happened to do something in a certain order, when it is such big story archs of the game seems a bit short-sighted.
The trigger for the next phase should have come from something in the Dragonspear Castle area, not the fact that I planted the barrel.......seriously? Or, better yet, a combination of two things of the barrel and something from the Castle. You can't guarantee the order people will do things in. I like to keep a minimum of saves so that I have to live with the consequences of certain choices, but to push me in a direction with no out because I happened to do something in a certain order, when it is such big story archs of the game seems a bit short-sighted.
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This would seem to be one of those consequences.
There's a reason that basic advice to CRPG players always mentions saving often.
I feel like constantly saving is cheaty or cheap. If I just save every single decision, then I'm just working the game till I get the outcome I want, not actually beating the game. What challenge is that?
When you were playing Baldur's Gate to completion for the first time, did you know about the various triggers in Chapter Six that automatically send you to the Candlekeep Gaol? How is this any different from that?
First playthrough SOD I inadvertantly went straight to the camp, hell it's at the end of the main path. They wouldn't let me in, I thought from the prompts I had to get in so attacked. Not a problem, could kill everything anyway. Then found, like the OP, masses of missed gameplay.
So played again with a walkthrough guide.
Going back to first playing BG, I wasn't online, couldn't access any playthrough guides, but never needed them to complete everything. Perhaps a few small details, but the game didn't cheat you.
In fact, probably like so many at that time, I was so keen to not finish BG, I went back to every single area just in case there was something I had missed. Cleared all the black bits. Basically, more BG, that's all I had.
All these years later, what excuse is there for designing something that misleads players and leaves them feeling cheated?
That's my main gripe and why I am so unforgiving of what is bad in SOD. Experience/knowledge is now available yet bad design, worse than nearly 20 years ago, is still being excused.
I remember entering Dragonspear Castle on my first run. I went up to the barrier, the Barrel of Bwoosh thingy took down the barrier, there was a lot of fighting, I accidentally broke the terms of the duel with Ashatiel, there was even more fighting, and eventually we spoke to Caelar. Then I went into the basement and proceeded to the endgame.
I didn't think there were any side quests left. When I went to Dragonspear Castle, I assumed that the only thing left was to finish the game, just like when you went to the Tree of Life in BG2, the Throne of Bhaal in ToB, the crystal tower in IWD, Sovngarde in Skyrim, Dagoth Ur in Morrowind, Ganon's Castle in Ocarina of Time and Link to the Past, the Wind Fish's Egg in Link's Awakening, or the final area in any game. From the beginning of the game, Dragonspear Castle was clearly supposed to be the final area, so I assumed the side quests ended there.
What quests did I miss?
A lot of us like the idea that we are very likely to miss many elements of the game in a single play through. If you are used to newer style RPGs that have obvious quests paths that practically give a neon painted path to follow, you would be well served to set those expectations aside with all the BG games. Without guides you WILL miss many little parts of the games on any given play through and for many of us that is great cuz it just leaves more to learn/explore/try in the next run through instead of shelving the game cuz everything worth doing was done in one go. If you prefer to always have the plot & where to go next, there are plenty of guides to follow.
What you deem as "bad design" is your opinion, but it is not done on accident. It is the style of the games this modern day expansion is based upon and intentional. While it may not be your cup of tea, it doesn't make it a "bad game". I don't particularly like action RPGs, but that doesn't mean Diablo 2 or Titan Quests are therefore poorly designed games......just means they don't suit my tastes.
I have NEVER played with a walkthrough. I may look things up, here and there, but have never relied on the guides. Back when I was playing when they originally came out, the Internet was not as much of a thing, (even though I had access to it). Honestly, this game is a little bit out of the mold of the original BG games if you ask me. It's a good successor for sure, but they definitely did things differently, like scripted waylays, and permanently unreachable zones. Maybe I'm wrong, but you strike me as someone who got into the games when the walkthroughs were much more ubiquitous, unlike me, since you seem to not find it as big a deal to rely on them. IMO, I feel SoD has more hand-holding than any of the originals. It has little to do with my cup of tea, and more about a design choice where by forcing me into a conflict without me knowing it's a pivotal conflict, I am inadvertently locking myself out of content. Sure, I can play through again, but I was locked out of some key quests. And I never said it was a bad game; I just feel like the progression cues are a little lacking; especially at such a pivotal point in the story. Did you manage to get all the items for the merchant dude? Did you find Skie? After the meeting with Caelar and finding out I couldn't find those items for him anymore and all I had left was the Dragonspear Castle zone, I walked up to the barrier and it just sat there and the barrel did not affect anything. I killed the person guarding, and still nothing.
You state it like the design is bad as if it is fact, when really it is just personal preference. You choose a play style based on wanting to live with consequences, then get mad at the game when you actually have to deal with consequences, based on a rather narrow view of what consequences you deem acceptable. I don't know what else to say, you seem determined in your view and I shall leave ya to it.
While I certainly have no issues with using guides/forums to get more out of the game as time goes on....I don't recall mentioning that I did so or that you should do so, just pointing out there options to avoid the consequences you did not enjoy.
"If you are used to newer style RPGs that have obvious quests paths that practically give a neon painted path to follow, you would be well served to set those expectations aside with all the BG games."
Because that's a contradiction when it comes to SOD because the game is quest driven, signpost following.
No mystery, no plot twists, straightforward, "here's the baddie, lets hunt them down".
If the developers had followed your guidelines (I wish) it would indeed fit better with the other BG games.
The fact that it doesn't is it's main failing.
Which brings me back to my original point against the OP - since this sounds like it was your first time completing SoD, why are you upset about running into something unexpected? That's what repeat playthroughs are for, and if you didn't like SoD's story you can revert to the non-SoD edition (since you needed to have it to get SoD in the first place)
The "expected" way to play the game is to use these features. Electing not to do so is a conscious choice the player makes... is it so surprising that it might come back to bite you on the ass?
As to the point of the game in question: it's a set-piece confrontation with a major antagonist... to me that just screams "Save Now".
I would bet that a good chunk of players went straight to the Underdark during their first playthroughs, missing a good chunk of content without even ever knowing it. The way SoD handles it might be due to an inartful quest trigger, but missing content as a consequence of choice or play style isn't unprecedented in CRPGs or even BG as a franchise.
I am sorry that you didn't have a recent save, though. Given the new rolling quicksave system, the best bet is to do a hard save for every four quicksaves if you want to really cover your bases.
Granted, depending on the kind of character I'm playing, I still skip the Sahuagin city sometimes. In fact, I think I've only ever been there once out of my three saga runs.
As for SoA. I'm sure many only did one of the three dungeons and missed out on all the nice stuff more than once and that's basically right after the sunken city really. How long did it take some to realize they could do all three? The story presents it like a choose one scenario.
And if you don't see that as good design you at least have to see how it was there before. There are many examples where advancing a plotline locks you out of other possibilities in the original game.
I understand the "playing with a limited number of saves to experience consequence", I do the same and there are many games I end with basically a quicksave and 2 to 3 other saves. (Including Tyranny, Tides of Numenera as recent exemples) and I miss out on stuff and then I play it again once i've spoiled myself with all the possibilities I missed. OP may have forgotten how time consuming exploring ALL the content is and was.
By the time that Saradush comes along I did not know that you could miss them however. I was well trained to scour by then.