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Is 'Wild Surge: Dizzy' logical?

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Comments

  • SmoothgoalSmoothgoal Member Posts: 34
    edited March 12
    Papa_Lou said:


    I definitely don't think dizzy being "uncurable" is an oversight by the developers, however.

    No offence, but i'll have do discard your opinion(for now), because you didn't get into the problem at all. All you stated only scratched the surface of what has already been discussed. I guess your view is from pure RP, but that is not 100% applicable in this case - reasons for that are in the discussion above.
    Post edited by Smoothgoal on
  • Papa_LouPapa_Lou Member Posts: 264

    Papa_Lou said:


    I definitely don't think dizzy being "uncurable" is an oversight by the developers, however.

    No offence, but I'll have to discard your opinion(for now)
    Okay lol, then why acknowledge my comment at all?

    Also, I didn't try to get into the "problem", because I don't see a problem at all. Again, my opinion, and that's exactly why I posted in the first place - to state my opinion on the subject. If you're going to discard it, that's fine, but I fail to see why you need to state that.
    ThacoBell
  • SmoothgoalSmoothgoal Member Posts: 34
    edited March 12
    Papa_Lou said:


    Okay lol, then why acknowledge my comment at all?

    Oh boy, i really didn't mean to offend you.
    Look, I didn't discard your comment, because the discussion is for that, to comment on the subject. I discarded your opinion, because it didn't had any ground. I hope you see the difference. Stating that i discard your opinion was kinda necessary as, after all, I'm trying to keep the discussion going and centered on the problem. It was also an attempt to stimulate you to actually look into it. "I didn't try to get into" and "because i don't see" are kinda self-contradictory, don't you think? You can't see if you don't look.
    Something as negligible as Dizzy(as you yourself acknowledged) can easily be an oversight(considering how many oversights/bugs the game has). So far nothing in the discussion notes that it is not one.
    Post edited by Smoothgoal on
  • SmoothgoalSmoothgoal Member Posts: 34
    edited March 13
    Papa_Lou said:

    I don't see why that opinion doesn't have any ground, as you stated.

    Ok, you reworded your statement. I guess i should do the same - especially for why i discarded your opinion.
    Dizzy being logical, in the sense not having a cure, has logic if we say its a weird form of magic. There are quite a few magic effects that are not curable.
    But then we go deeper. Why is it not blockable and why it doesn't have any counter to it? As noted by kjeron there are few other effects that can't be blocked or cured - Itchy , Hiccups, Weaken and of course Dizzy. Sex change is, sort of, curable. As discussed previously, for Dizzy, all of them can be argued to be physical, which would make sense why they can't be blocked like all other magic. In the game files they are indeed non-magical. That leaves the final question, why there is no counteraction for dizzy when there is for all other physical effects? That includes physical effects like berserker or fatigue.
    So Dizzy is the only effect that can't be cured, blocked or countered by other means. Its not a game breaker, but something is off with it. I discarded your opinion as you only covered the "cure".
    All of this is from gameplay perspective, from RP - dizzy which is can be counteracted even in real life when its either from a physical trauma or from chemical or medical source, so should be a dizzy from a phyisical or magic source. Its sounds like a minor effect. If it had fancier name that suggest its a high-tier spell which is immune to dispell(similar to how the planetars can't be unsummoned) then it would make sense, but currently - no. Its hilarious, because in RP you can go to the best healer in the world, he would be able to help you with any injury, effects like draining your IQ and intelligence or even stun(which is practically an advanced dizzy effect), but not a silly dizzy effect.
    Post edited by Smoothgoal on
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,058
    Honestly, I gave this another thought, and seriously, it makes sense for Heal to cure Dizziness.

    Why?

    Because a Heal spell removes all non-magical and most non-magical injuries (other than lost limbs) from the target, and dizziness, even if produced by magic, isn't magical in its nature: your head spins, you feel dizzy. Dizziness could be caused by anything Wild Magic produces, from t3h W1ld3st 1llus10n 3v4r to a pile of sticks hitting your head and even a Power Word: Dizziness spell (or, if your Wild Magic created an Earthquake, it'd cause me dizziness for sure because I have motion sickness or something). Considering that, Heal cures magical Blindness and several other magical debuffs, it would make sense it cured Dizziness, which even if provoked by Wild Magic, it doesn't have to be necessarily caused by it, and even in that case it would still make sense.
    JuliusBorisov
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,142
    This isn't a hyper balanced multiplayer game. Not everything has a counter and some things really are just stronger than others.
    mlnevesePapa_LouCrevsDaakJuliusBorisov
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 7,736
    ThacoBell said:

    This isn't a hyper balanced multiplayer game. Not everything has a counter and some things really are just stronger than others.

    I actually think hyper balanced games are quite boring... All classes play in such a similar way that basically all you're choosing is how you look on screen.
    ThacoBellCrevsDaakJuliusBorisovPapa_Lou
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,142
    It depends for me. Single player or co op games, yeah not a fan of balance at the expense of "uniqueness". PVP or card games though? Yeah, balance that stuff.
    mlneveseCrevsDaak
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,058
    ThacoBell said:

    This isn't a hyper balanced multiplayer game. Not everything has a counter and some things really are just stronger than others.

    Yeah, I know... I'm just saying it makes sense lore-wise... At least to me.
    JuliusBorisov
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 314
    If we're going by lore-wise and spell descriptions, then Regeneration should really apply to a certain Avariel, Maze and Domination shouldn't end single-player runs, and Dimensional Door should be available to the PCs.

    I'll admit that Dizzy is a pretty bad condition, but it's not really any worse than, say, destroying all the gold on hand (which can be a HUGE problem in BG2), getting yourself Held, turning yourself or an ally to stone for buffs, Sunfire randomly going off around you... Not being able to cast for a turn is relatively benign, all things considered.
    JuliusBorisov
  • SmoothgoalSmoothgoal Member Posts: 34
    edited March 14
    Neverused said:

    If we're going by lore-wise and spell descriptions, then Regeneration should really apply to a certain Avariel, Maze and Domination shouldn't end single-player runs, and Dimensional Door should be available to the PCs.

    I'll admit that Dizzy is a pretty bad condition, but it's not really any worse than, say, destroying all the gold on hand (which can be a HUGE problem in BG2), getting yourself Held, turning yourself or an ally to stone for buffs, Sunfire randomly going off around you... Not being able to cast for a turn is relatively benign, all things considered.

    The Maze and Domination are known bugs by the devs, but are very hard to fix. Dim Door was a gamebreaker intentionally removed by the devs(until they can fix it). Regeneration... well yeah, just another oversight i guess,but too late to fix that one. :D
    As for the Wild surges. 90% of the gold you get is through selling items, just hoard them instead of selling, that way you'll hardly carry more than few thousand gold at a time. Held and FtS can be immuned 100% of the time with the proper spell or item usage regardless if in party or solo. Sunfire is only trouble at lower levels, but at higher levels there are plenty of ways to reduce its effectiveness to nothing. Dizzy on the other hand, especially for solo, is quite more severe as you can't do nothing against it or prevent it and it becomes much worse at higher levels when you start to use NRD.
    Post edited by Smoothgoal on
  • SmoothgoalSmoothgoal Member Posts: 34
    edited March 14
    ThacoBell said:

    This isn't a hyper balanced multiplayer game. Not everything has a counter and some things really are just stronger than others.

    I'm not sure why you guys started to discuss balance. The discussion is for bugs and oversights not balance. Anyway.
    But i have trouble with your statement about "Not everything has a counter". Other games excluded, how many effects you can count that don't have a counter in BG and then compare it to all other effects?(again, timestop excluded) Dizzy is the only one i know among the dozens of effects the game has - dizzy so far is out of place. Unless you have something that I'm missing?

    Post edited by Smoothgoal on
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,142
    Yeah, dizzy simply doesn't have a counter. Its not a bug, just another quirk of using wild magic.
  • Papa_LouPapa_Lou Member Posts: 264
    I just don't understand why dizzy needs a counter/cure/etc.

    It's just, like Thacobell said, a quirk of wild magic. It just doesn't have a workaround. As was previously mentioned, since Baldur's Gate is a single player game (especially a single player game meant to be played with a party of characters) it doesn't really need a cure or counter for every little thing. Some things are just simply one way or the other, and that's that.

    It isn't a bug or oversight, just simply a part of the game.
    ThacoBell
  • SmoothgoalSmoothgoal Member Posts: 34
    edited March 15
    Papa_Lou said:

    I just don't understand why dizzy needs a counter/cure/etc.

    It's just, like Thacobell said, a quirk of wild magic. It just doesn't have a workaround. As was previously mentioned, since Baldur's Gate is a single player game (especially a single player game meant to be played with a party of characters) it doesn't really need a cure or counter for every little thing. Some things are just simply one way or the other, and that's that.

    It isn't a bug or oversight, just simply a part of the game.

    Well, I don't intend to enter your situation anymore.
    The facts are on the table: Lore wise, if Dizzy is a wild magic exclusive magical effect it should be controllable to some extent through wild magic, if its physical it should be controllable just like stun is. From game perspective, its out of place as the only uncounterable effect, and there are more than enough of oversights that suggest dizzy is one as well.

    So you're either again making self-contradictory statements, acknowledging that dizzy is the only uncontrollable effect in a sea of controllable effect, but saying its not an oversight. Or you're simply fine running the game however buggy it is, however flawed it is and refusing to acknowledge any of it - in which case I accept your comment, but your opinion is irrelevant for the discussion.

    So from now on, for both you and TachoBell, if you don't start putting something solid behind your arguments("just because" is not accepted anymore due to the statements above), I'll start dismissing them as troll attempts. Well, Thaco is already solidly trolling, so i expect him to continue and I'll not repeat my mistake trying to discuss anything with him, but for you... consider this comment my last attempt to make meaningful discussion with you.
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 314
    Geez, saying people are trolling for disagreeing with your statements? Might want to take it down a notch.

    The purpose behind counters is that there're counters to everything an NPC can throw at you, my main proof being the Shield of Baldurun exists solely to counter a creature's ability that's pretty darn hard to survive otherwise. Well, besides Timestop. And unless you're a Halfling, Stun. (The Sword of Arvoreen is the only thing that blocks it, iirc)

    But Dizzy can't be applied by the enemy, you have to be unlucky and roll the... 7/10000 chance, if my math's correct. And this is a kit that can potentially have positive wild surges, and can cast level 9 spells from a level 1 slot. If this were an enemy ability that could 100% shut down casting without a save, I'd agree, I think, but think of it more of one of the very small downsides to playing a Wild Mage, and drink a Potion of Invisibility next round or something.
    ThacoBellPapa_Lou
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 767
    It seems to me the only thing you want here is to have other people agree with you. @kjeron pointed to you other effects that cannot be countered and you dismissed him on the grounds these are effects that don't annoy you. Time Stop has been mentioned, you also dismissed that, for completely arbitrary reasons. Balance has been advanced as an argument (Nahal is BY FAR the most powreful spell in the game and this is at least a possible genuine drawback, even with only 1% chance to trigger) and you also dismissed that as off-topic.

    If someone is trolling here, this isn't @ThacoBell.
    NeverusedPapa_LouThacoBell
  • SmoothgoalSmoothgoal Member Posts: 34
    edited March 15
    Kurona said:

    It seems to me the only thing you want here is to have other people agree with you. @kjeron pointed to you other effects that cannot be countered and you dismissed him on the grounds these are effects that don't annoy you. Time Stop has been mentioned, you also dismissed that, for completely arbitrary reasons. Balance has been advanced as an argument (Nahal is BY FAR the most powreful spell in the game and this is at least a possible genuine drawback, even with only 1% chance to trigger) and you also dismissed that as off-topic.

    If someone is trolling here, this isn't @ThacoBell.

    Well yea maybe i overdid it a little with the troll stuff. But how to explain someone who just says "just because" without giving any meaningful backup, when there is plenty that points that is not "just because"?
    For example, your argument is meaningful with plenty of good points .
    As for the other things, Kjeron putted good statement, but still all the other effects are counterable to a degree, not that they are not annoying. The moment he mentioned haste i changed my opinion to dispel+block+diminish through other effects. I started my whole discussion with making an argument for why the timestop should have no counter, for which i can give plenty of good reasons from both RP and Game prespective. Also i don't see what balance and chance has to do with bugs/oversights. Balance is dependable on bugs or oversight, but they are not dependable on balance - noone makes bugs on purpose to balance a game, and none of us can know if its an oversight or not. So saying that its not an oversight "just because" is not really an argument.

    Post edited by Smoothgoal on
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 1,998
    I'm not sure why you're pursuing this argument Smoothgoal. You've been saying that all effects except dizzy (and timestop) have some sort of counter to them, but not all of those 'counters' you're referring to are directly blocking or dispelling the effect. Instead they are work-arounds, e.g. your 'counter' to the destroy gold surge is not to carry much gold in the first place. Frankly I don't logically see any difference to the perfectly good work-arounds available for dizzy, e.g. wait the short period until it wears off, kite opponents or use items. To my mind the dizzy effect is not something unique and unusual, but fits well with other wild surges - many of which share the same characteristics of being non-magical and non-dispellable.

    I wouldn't have bothered putting the above argument though, as I'm sure you'll disagree, except that I thought I should make a point about the tone of your posts in this thread. You've been dismissive and on the verge of insulting to several posters who have simply been engaging with a topic you created. That's not going to help you if you want to continue to post on the Forums and perhaps seek help with issues in the game you come across. Part of the problem I think is that you're not aware that some people know far more about the game than you do. I have sympathy with that as one of my early posts on the Forum was made in the belief I understood more about the history of AD&D than I actually did - and I was pulled up pretty sharply by a response :D. The advantage of that is that I'm now more cautious about what I write.

    As an example of the above issue you asked earlier in the thread why @kjeron had chosen to talk about 2nd edition AD&D. The reason for that is that the Baldur's Gate games are based very heavily on the 2nd edition, though there are small influences from elsewhere as well. The vast majority of regular posters on the Forum would know the relevance of the comment about the 2nd edition - but no-one responded to your question. I suggest the reason for that was that the way the question was phrased and your previous answers in the thread meant no-one was inclined to be helpful because of the risk of getting an unwelcoming response. I'm not intending to open up a fresh dialogue here about who said what when, but just suggest you might want to consider what I've said when making future posts.
    ThacoBellPapa_Lou
  • SmoothgoalSmoothgoal Member Posts: 34
    edited March 15
    Grond0 said:

    I'm not sure why you're pursuing this argument Smoothgoal. You've been saying that all effects except dizzy (and timestop) have some sort of counter to them, but not all of those 'counters' you're referring to are directly blocking or dispelling the effect. Instead they are work-arounds, e.g. your 'counter' to the destroy gold surge is not to carry much gold in the first place. Frankly I don't logically see any difference to the perfectly good work-arounds available for dizzy, e.g. wait the short period until it wears off, kite opponents or use items. To my mind the dizzy effect is not something unique and unusual, but fits well with other wild surges - many of which share the same characteristics of being non-magical and non-dispellable.

    I wouldn't have bothered putting the above argument though, as I'm sure you'll disagree, except that I thought I should make a point about the tone of your posts in this thread. You've been dismissive and on the verge of insulting to several posters who have simply been engaging with a topic you created. That's not going to help you if you want to continue to post on the Forums and perhaps seek help with issues in the game you come across. Part of the problem I think is that you're not aware that some people know far more about the game than you do. I have sympathy with that as one of my early posts on the Forum was made in the belief I understood more about the history of AD&D than I actually did - and I was pulled up pretty sharply by a response :D. The advantage of that is that I'm now more cautious about what I write.

    As an example of the above issue you asked earlier in the thread why @kjeron had chosen to talk about 2nd edition AD&D. The reason for that is that the Baldur's Gate games are based very heavily on the 2nd edition, though there are small influences from elsewhere as well. The vast majority of regular posters on the Forum would know the relevance of the comment about the 2nd edition - but no-one responded to your question. I suggest the reason for that was that the way the question was phrased and your previous answers in the thread meant no-one was inclined to be helpful because of the risk of getting an unwelcoming response. I'm not intending to open up a fresh dialogue here about who said what when, but just suggest you might want to consider what I've said when making future posts.

    Ok, i would with a hand on my heart, say about time someone makes a good counter argument.
    Yeah.. good point on my lost of nerves... I wont try to justify, even tho i really want to.

    To start with "you're not aware that some people know far more about the game than you do". I'm perfectly aware of this and is what i seek. Saying that i find selecting 2nd "fishy" is, because i didn't see wild mage being a thing back then - i see that it appeared at edition 3.5, i allowed to be corrected if i was wrong, and still do. Wild stuff seems pretty "new".

    To go back to the Dizzy.
    Gold is permanent and its most importantly non-combat, so its counter is easy. Similar, a Dizzy out of combat is easy to 'counter' - just rest. Combat of course is different. Sure running away is always an option, but this is practically 'out of combat' counter. I already considered that kind of counter, before creating the discussion or considering the other effects like fatigue. You got a good point on the items, which is indeed a in-combat counter. But my knowledge eludes me here how it can actually be a counter. Sure you can kite melee enemies and even sling them to death, but what about enemies with ranged attacks, litches or other magic immune creatures? Am i missing something?
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 767

    To go back to the Dizzy.
    Gold is permanent and its most importantly non-combat, so its counter is easy. Similar, a Dizzy out of combat is easy to 'counter' - just rest. Combat of course is different. Sure running away is always an option, but this is practically 'out of combat' counter. I already considered that kind of counter, before creating the discussion or considering the other effects like fatigue. You got a good point on the items, which is indeed a in-combat counter. But my knowledge eludes me here how it can actually be a counter. Sure you can kite melee enemies and even sling them to death, but what about enemies with ranged attacks, litches or other magic immune creatures? Am i missing something?

    Wands and scrolls are still usable under spell failure. It's generally a good idea to stock up on them with any mage just in case and for a wild mage it's even more important. You can even take the Scribe Scrolls HLA eventually if you want to make sure your wild mage always has something to do.

    Really wild mage isn't designed to be the ultimate powergaming class, even if NRD ended up being obscenely powerful. It's really made to have fun and deal with the consequences of the surges; if you're trying to bend the surges to be always manageable you're going to be really frustrated. Sure, high level and (Improved) Chaos Shield make it easier to rely on NRD in tough situations but it's never a sure thing (bar bugs like the old stacking of Chaos Shields in Sequencers). Some effects are just here to screw you up.
    ThacoBell
  • SmoothgoalSmoothgoal Member Posts: 34
    edited March 15
    To be honest in my opinion, despite dizzy i consider the wild mage to be way too overpowered at high level compared other casters like sorcerer, because of his ridiculous offensive power of NRD, Limwish and proper timing. The "no spell limit" should be removed from NRD. My opinion tho.

    Anyway. Its definitely the scrolls i was misunderstanding - that they are able to be consumed and casted. Proper scroll hoarding and timed usage is a clear counter to the dizzy's spell failure. I wonder why no one noted it so far in the discussion, instead of going for comments from the type "just because".

    So as a conclusion. Dizzy might not make sense RP wise, but it surely has logic gameplay wise.
    Kurona said:

    You can even take the Scribe Scrolls HLA eventually if you want to make sure your wild mage always has something to do.

    But this is something i still don't understand, scribing HLA scrolls? I see that you can scribe lower level scrolls with the thief HLA, but i don't see it being able to scribe HLAs. Can you give me some more info? For me the discussion is over, but i would really appreciate it.
    Post edited by Smoothgoal on
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 767

    Kurona said:

    You can even take the Scribe Scrolls HLA eventually if you want to make sure your wild mage always has something to do.

    But this is something i still don't understand, scribing HLA scrolls? I see that you can scribe lower level scrolls, but nowhere near HLA. Can you give me some more info?
    I mean the HLA "Scribe Scrolls" that allow you to create mid-level scrolls. You can't make scrolls out of the 10th level spells, this would be really overpowered XD

    They're just mid-level but they can still be useful.
  • SmoothgoalSmoothgoal Member Posts: 34
    edited March 15
    Ok then I think there is nothing more to discuss when there are enough facts. I guess a special thanks is in order as a conclusion:
    @Grond0 for clearing out the Dizzy chance and for the pointing for Dizzy's countermeasure.
    @kjeron for pointing out all effects that are neither blockable nor curable.
    @Kurona for finalizing some points of the discussion.
    @mlnevese for the RP insight.
    Thank you guys for contributing to the discussion.

    Fist comment edited accordingly.

    If anyone would want to continue with the discussion. Please feel free to do so.
    mlneveseGrond0
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