Is 'Wild Surge: Dizzy' logical?

Smoothgoal

Hi guys,

I'm a bit new to the BG series and i'm currently looking at the Wild mage.

Everything in the Wild mage seems in OK for me, except that Dizzy effect. As of currently it causes 100% spell failure quite a long duration(over a turn) and its unblockable and undispellable - the only way to remove it is to wait for the full duration or do a normal rest(wish-resting doesn't seem to remove it).

It might be my inexperience in the games, but don't all status effects in the game have some sort of counter for them? I know that timestop is unblockable and undispellabe, but it makes sense to be so if its actually interpreted as an ultimate haste effect, besides it lasts only 3 rounds. Dizzy seems like something that should at least be heal-able.

For me it seems like some sort of oversight. To justify my way of thinking about it - I see that "wild surge: held" used to be also unblockable/undispellable, even though it was a clear bug instead of pure oversight, and was fixed.

What do you guys think?

Edit(Final): I don't consider the discussion needs to continue. The Dizzy does not have much sense from RP perspective. Considering that wild magic should be controlled at high levels. And if Dizzy is not magical, but physical it should be curable. But from gameplay perspective it does. There are plenty other wild surge effects that don't have a cure/block - Itchy, Hiccups, Weaken etc. There are also non wild surge effects that also don't have cure/block like fatigue or berserker. But all of those effects have clear 'counter'-effects(workarounds), like drinking a poition of strength against the -6 of Wild Surge: Weaken. So Dizzy can also be counteracted, but by hoarding scrolls/wands/other items and wisely using them in case of a Dizzy.

tbone1

I first misread that as "ditzy" and thought "Well, Neera must be unaffected".

CrevsDaak

You only have a one percent chance of getting it. I think it's ok. I mean, you get to cast spells from any school, and you get an extra spell slot per level besides being able to cast Contingencies and similar spells for a level 1 spell. Things like this from Wild Surges compensate for how powerful Wild Mages are.

Smoothgoal

CrevsDaak said:

You only have a one percent chance of getting it. I think it's ok. I mean, you get to cast spells from any school, and you get an extra spell slot per level besides being able to cast Contingencies and similar spells for a level 1 spell. Things like this from Wild Surges compensate for how powerful Wild Mages are.

Actually there is quite larger percent change, it goes go up to 10% per successful cast through NRD at TOB max level. But anyway, even if it was 50% that's not the point. It doesn't make sense(at least for me) for a spell effect(wild surge) to be non-magical unremovable effect.

Grond0

To my mind the dizzy effect is not the result of casting the wrong spell (like hold, fireball etc), but of failing part-way through a cast. The result is not magical dizziness, but physical confusion and disorientation. I suppose the developers could have allowed that to be cured by a heal spell, but I don't think the consequence is unreasonable. The wild mage can still run, fight and use magic items - that's a lot better than being held (particularly if playing solo!).

In relation to the chance of getting the dizzy effect there are 3 rolls on the whole table that give this, but 2 of those affect the spell's target rather than the caster. If we assumed that 50% of spells are targeted (as buffs) on the caster that would mean the chance of getting dizzy as the result of a standard spell would be 5% x 2% = 0.1%. If at maximum level (31) and casting through NRD then a surge will always result, but let's assume that this high level caster has improved chaos shield active (as would only be sensible if using NRD). That means that the die roll is increased by 56, leaving only the 2 rolls resulting in target dizzy as possibilities. The chance of that (again assuming 50% of spells are self-targeted) would therefore be 1%.

kjeron

Smoothgoal said:

Actually there is quite larger percent change, it goes go up to 10% per successful cast through NRD at TOB max level.

The chance for any specific Wild Surge aside from "Cast Normally" will never be more than 1%.

Smoothgoal said:

It doesn't make sense(at least for me) for a spell effect(wild surge) to be non-magical unremovable effect.

Almost every Wild Surge that doesn't reproduce an existing spell ignores resistance and is undispellable.
The effect(Dizziness) itself isn't magical, even if whatever caused it may have been. The Haste spell causes fatigue, but you cannot dispel that fatigue.

Smoothgoal

Guys, This discussion is NOT about the chance that the Dizzy effect can occur...

If you want the calculation for "UP TO 10%" here it is, it applies for self buffs only: TOB max lv 31+ chaos shield(25) + helm(15) = 71 bonus roll. Only 30 effects left, 2 dizzy effects within it. That equals to over 6% chance to occur. Add the fact that you don't always succeed with the spell and need to recast, that increases your odds to nearly 10% on average until you succeed casting a single spell that you want through NRD. But please stop discussing this.

Held doesn't count as it is immun-able.

The fatigue is a really good point, but fatigue is counter-able to a level that its practically temporary dispelled( its effects negated). While there is no ability that gives you 100% spell casting chance to counter Dizzy.

Now this is why i created this discussion. Its what I'm seeking: an argument that proves that the Dizzy effect has its place as it is or if no such argument exists - that its an oversight. Otherwise i would had put this discussion in the requests section. But so far nothing but Time Stop notes itself as an uncounter-able, which as noted in my original comment, at least makes sense from RP prespective. Now I've looked into the, Berserker effect which is also similar(not immune/dispell), but you can navigate him back to the enemy(counter the effect) and you can always disable him(another counter), it makes sense from both RP and "mechanic" point of view. Dizzy doesn't have RP explanation, and so far no "mechanic" explanation .

tbone1

I think dizziness does make roleplaying sense. At a basic level, a wild surge means that something the caster cannot control has occurred, and that there is going to be some side effect. If that side effect affects the caster's mind, that is reasonable. Intelligence is required to be a mage, higher intelligence allows higher level spells and more spellls per level, being struck in combat can disrupt a mage's concentration, ... Obviously the mind is the conduit through which the mage can access magical powers.

Now, dizziness is a fairly common side effect of medication, illnesses, chemical imbalances, neurological issues, a blow to the head, and so on in the real world. In a universe where magic occurs, and where there are side effects if a spell goes sideways, dizziness would be a sensible side effect, as would confusion, fatigue, or anything that results from a disruption of cognitive ability.

Now, the 10% chance may seem high in "game balance" terms, particularly if there is no guaranteed way to counter it. My understanding was that, at least in PnP, a Heal or Greater Restoration should remove such permanent effects in AD&Dv2

Smoothgoal

Yes Dizziness is normal by itself from RP prespective. But it also is not, because it should be heal-able, or atleast reducable, through magic. In the real world, there are plenty of ways to reduce the effects of Dizziness, and even some anti-Vertigo medications. In BG there is no ability that gives +Spell casting chance.

tbone1

Not even heal or greater restoration? Those would seem sensible choices and, though my memory isn't what it was, I am 99% certain that one of those would do the trick in PnP. However, we know that what is in PnP and in the EEs is not always the same, like wisdom affecting one' saving throw vs "mental attacks".

One would think a potion of clarity would do the trick as well. Hm, maybe an anti-dizziness mod is in order ...

Tarlugn

I think you need the skills of ballerina to manage your mobility and movement while being dizzy. What I´ve heard, being dizzy can make one fall with usually fatal consequences, unless you have some kind of education of how to do that safely, wherever that could be obtained. Perhaps dizzy means the mage is overwhelmed by powers unknown which I´d reckon to be most taxing experience.

Grond0

Smoothgoal said:

Guys, This discussion is NOT about the chance that the Dizzy effect can occur...

If you want the calculation for "UP TO 10%" here it is, it applies for self buffs only: TOB max lv 31+ chaos shield(25) + helm(15) = 71 bonus roll. Only 30 effects left, 2 dizzy effects within it. That equals to over 6% chance to occur. Add the fact that you don't always succeed with the spell and need to recast, that increases your odds to nearly 10% on average until you succeed casting a single spell that you want through NRD. But please stop discussing this.

I'm not looking to annoy you, but I think it's not unreasonable to bear in mind that others will be reading this thread as well as you - and therefore it may be helpful to clarify how the wild surge table works so that others can calculate correct probabilities if they wish to.

Whenever a wild surge occurs the game rolls a d100 in the background. That roll may be subject to modifiers, such as those you've listed above. If that is the case then any modified roll that would total more than 100 is treated as 100 in the table, i.e. casts normally. That means that if you did have a modifier of 71 then most spells would cast normally despite the surge. In vanilla BG2 it is possible to stack improved chaos shield into a chain contingency - allowing a modifier for spells cast through NRD of over 100, i.e. you can guarantee spells cast via NRD take effect normally (that's not possible in BG2EE though).

With a modifier of 71 any table result with a die roll of 71 or lower will never occur, but that does not mean that results with die rolls of 72-99 are more likely - each individual table result only has a 1% chance (other than casts normally). In the 72-99 range there are 2 results of 'target dizzy'. That means that there is a 2% chance of a surge resulting in the caster becoming dizzy if casting a spell on self and a 0% chance if casting a spell on something else.

Back on topic you were asking for other effects similar to dizzy. I think the beholder anti-magic ray is one example.

mlnevese

The dizzy effect makes a lot of sense from a RP perspective. In the Realms every caster accesses magical energy through The Weave created by the goddess Mystra. The Weave helps in shaping the magical energy, does not allow any random fluctuation or excessive power to reach the caster's mind or body. It also controls what mortal wizards can do and that's the reason no soellcaster can cast spells above the 9th level.

What Wild mages can do is cast spells without the intervention of The Weave. They access and control magical energy directly allowing them to use a much more flexible kind of magic.

A wild surge occurs when a random fluctuation in magical energies happen and the wizard is unable to compensate them in time.

Now imagine what would happen to you if you had all the energy of a magic missile for instance being shaped inside your mind and it was suddenly released in your brain.

It's a miracle the wizard just gets dizzy instead of going into a coma...

Smoothgoal

Grond0 said:

Back on topic you were asking for other effects similar to dizzy. I think the beholder anti-magic ray is one example.

That is pretty interesting info for the wild surge. My field testing showed great numbers of non-successful casts so i presumed it was random between the left 30 effects. Thats cool, but still offtopic.
About the anti-magic ray. Isnt Spell Sheild effective against that? Or has it been updated and spell shield no longer protects against that?

mlnevese said:

It's a miracle the wizard just gets dizzy instead of going into a coma...

Very cool info i didn't know, I'm still new to the D&D universe. But your analysis is only on "why is dizzy possible", I don't see this explaining why Dizzy can't be countered in any way. The dizzy being uncounterable is what can be considered against RP. Even more what you say is that Dizzy was caused by unknown magical effect, why is this unknown effect unblockable?

Grond0

Smoothgoal said:

About the anti-magic ray. Isnt Spell Sheild effective against that? Or has it been updated and spell shield no longer protects against that?

Spell Shield can stop an anti-magic ray, but won't cure an existing anti-magic condition on the mage. Just like dizzy I'm not aware of any way to deal with the anti-magic condition (apart from waiting it out).

Smoothgoal

Grond0 said:

Smoothgoal said:

About the anti-magic ray. Isnt Spell Sheild effective against that? Or has it been updated and spell shield no longer protects against that?

Spell Shield can stop an anti-magic ray, but won't cure an existing anti-magic condition on the mage. Just like dizzy I'm not aware of any way to deal with the anti-magic condition (apart from waiting it out).

Yea but that's what makes them different, the ray IS blockable. Dizzy can't be blocked. To contrast: if one knows spell shield blocks dizzy, he would keep the shield up before casting NRD, so no need to bother looking for a "cure".

Grond0

I'm not sure that's such a great difference. No spellcaster is likely to keep Spell Shield up constantly, so its use is situational depending on knowing (either by meta-game knowledge or scouting) what is coming up. It's a similar situation with wild surges. If you're not in combat then becoming dizzy is not a problem; if you're already in combat then you can avoid nasty surges by not casting spells (at all if you want to be totally safe, or just not on yourself if you're particularly concerned about becoming dizzy). The game is full of situations where you not only need to use items and abilities, but also choose appropriate tactics.

Smoothgoal

Grond0 said:

No spellcaster is likely to keep Spell Shield up constantly, so its use is situational depending on knowing.

I'm not sure what causes you to think that. Well, from no-meta RP prespective... "probably" yes. But the shield has quite a fair duration and a proper use of NRD+LimWISH(+ other things against the other negative surges) will grant you potentially limitless spells for the cost of few seconds. Without shield any time you cast LimWish you risk getting dizzy. So the difference is quite noticeable . Still lets don't get too offtopic. Dizzy remains unexplained and so far seems like a (tiny) oversight of the Devs.

JuliusBorisov

Remember, if you want to create a feature request, you can always do so using Redmine.

Smoothgoal

JuliusBorisov said:

Remember, if you want to create a feature request, you can always do so using Redmine.

Was thinking about it. But i wanted to get a good grasp if the Dizzy is actually broken and worth writing a request. Will leave the topic for few more days, something might come up.

As for the request, what is the difference between that link and the tab in these forums?

JuliusBorisov

The fearure request forum category had appeared long before reporting on Redmine began. Since April, 2016, using Redmine has become a preferable way of reporting bugs and feature requests.

kjeron

Wild surges have consequences, some you can't do anything about, that is their purpose, those surges are supposed to ruin your day. It's the price for being a wild mage and access to NRD. Your asking why you can't get around checks and balances.
Within d&d, dizziness fulfills that purpose, it has no specific cure, removal, protection, or prevention. The only option is to wait it out.

Wish/Limited are open-ended, so they would be a legitimate option to add a feature request:

"I wish ... something something ... wild magic."

High WIS:
Removes all Wild Surge resources from caster.

Low WIS:
Remove&Immune to all Wild Surge Roll Bonuses (chaos shields, helm, etc...) for 1 day.

Smoothgoal

kjeron said:

Within d&d,

What exactly are you noting here? Your argument currently is hollow - its basically "just because" - do you have something to back it up? If not, let me remind you that Held also used to be like Dizzy, without cure or protection, now its not. Leaving Dizzy as the only wild surge you can do nothing against(and so far, the only effect i know to be that way)

JuliusBorisov said:

The fearure request forum category had appeared long before reporting on Redmine began. Since April, 2016, using Redmine has become a preferable way of reporting bugs and feature requests.

Thanks mate. Will have it in mind.

kjeron

Smoothgoal said:

What exactly are you noting here? Your argument currently is hollow - its basically "just because" - do you have something to back it up? If not, let me remind you that Held also used to be like Dizzy, without cure or protection, now its not. Leaving Dizzy as the only wild surge you can do nothing against.

Held - Hold Person, is an existing spell that the surge is duplicating, which is dispellable and resistable, and it was. It was also removable. What it was doing wrong was bypassing Immunity to Hold.

There is nothing that grants immunity to the effects caused by Dizziness, so there is nothing similar between them.

It is also not the only wild surge you can't prevent or undo without waiting it out:
Itchy (-2 attack & cast speed)
Hiccups (-1 Thac0 & attack speed)
Weaken (-6 Strength)
Sex Change
Gold destroyed
Drain item charges
Teleport Field

It is not mentioned as being cured, prevented, protected, or removed by any spells or items currently in-game, a simple text search of the dialog file can confirm that. The closest is several spells in Icewind Dale that remove intoxication, except that it is a separate mechanic entirely, and not related to the dizziness effect applied by the surge.

If you want to search through every 2nd edition d&d book for something that can cure or prevent dizziness, be my guest.

ThacoBell

If you are trying to find logic in wild magic, all you will find is disappointment.

Smoothgoal

kjeron said:

Smoothgoal said:

What exactly are you noting here? Your argument currently is hollow - its basically "just because" - do you have something to back it up? If not, let me remind you that Held also used to be like Dizzy, without cure or protection, now its not. Leaving Dizzy as the only wild surge you can do nothing against.

If you want to search through every 2nd edition d&d book for something that can cure or prevent dizziness, be my guest.

That's probably the only thing i cant comment about, since i have close to no experience with the many D&D editions. But if you want to use this as an argument, you should be quite specific, because choosing exactly 2nd edition sounds really fishy. I mean you should self answer questions like, when was the Wild mage introduced, Was dizzy exactly the same in 2nd as in BG, were there other effects that you could do nothing against, is it still the same in latest edition etc. etc.

With the risk of sounding rude(i'm sorry for which), all the WS effects you listed you can do something about: get haste/gear; use strength potions; most gold is though selling items; You can't do anything against drain item charges? sex chage? Really?...

Edit. Look, the whole reason of the discussion is to find something that "proves me wrong". If you really think that there is a solid answer in the D&D editions, please share it.

rapsam2003

I think asking if anything makes sense regarding Wild Surge is ... well, illogical. It's a feature that is supposed to defy logic most of the time.

Smoothgoal

rapsam2003 said:

I think asking if anything makes sense regarding Wild Surge is ... well, illogical. It's a feature that is supposed to defy logic most of the time.

Normally i would agree. But a game, suspectable to many bugs and oversights is not the same case. A game with a good obvious focus on every effect to have some sort of counter, this single negligible effect doesn't.

ThacoBell

Well, they aren't called "well behaved" surges.

mlnevese

ThacoBell said:

Well, they aren't called "well behaved" surges.

They would be if you were a high level wild mage with all the wild surge control spells that exists in P&P

Papa_Lou

In one of my complete playthrough, I had Neera in my party right from the moment I found her in Beregost, right up to the end of ToB. I honestly don't think I ever encountered this dizzy effect. I actually didn't even know it existed until now.

I definitely don't think dizzy being "uncurable" is an oversight by the developers, however. Just because everything else is curable, doesn't mean dizziness needs to be. I mean, this is a dizziness brought on by wild magic, not from the club of an ogre.

I should also mention that Neera got the sex change effect very near the end of ToB, and she stayed that way. If there was a way to cure it at that point, I certainly didn't find it. Granted, I didn't look specifically for a cure, because I thought it was a hilarious way to end the series, where my monk had been romancing Neera the entire time.

At the end of the day, I don't think dizziness needs a cure. Not dizziness brought on by a wild surge, at least. The entire point of a wild surge is to ruin your strategy, and that's exactly what a dizzy effect would do. If you think that's an oversight, I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard to cook up a little mod to fix it for yourself, as well as any others who feel the same. In my mind, however, "just because" is as good a reason as any when it comes to magic in a made-up universe.