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Half-Orcs as Strong as Hill Giants, and Comparing the STR stat to Pen and Paper AD&D

HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,644
edited November 2019 in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
I've always thought the modification to Half-Orcs to make them capable of being naturally as strong as a Hill Giant (19 Strength) was a bit amusing - I tend to be a bit old school though. I still remember from my pen and paper AD&D days back in college, how humans capped at 18/00 (Ogre Strength) and that was such a small percentile. You literally had to roll (like you do in BG Char Gen) 00 on percentile dice, however unlike BG (which I understand is a video game) you got to roll only once. So you usually had someone with a nat 18/00 every few years at best. Which made sense - given the rarity.

Then there's half orcs, which you can just put a 19 in. Crazy. And not really logical, considering being naturally as strong as an ogre while being humanoid is one thing - being naturally as strong as a giant while being that small, is something else.

2nd Ed did tend to eliminate some of the logic 1st Ed introduced though. Also gone were demihuman level limits and other stat max/minimums that made sense based on body-type (such as Elves having a max 18/75 strength).

Ah, nostalgia.


Post edited by HaHaCharade on
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Comments

  • Jirayia2Jirayia2 Member Posts: 18
    edited March 2017
    Half-orc Kensai is too strong, it should be banned right after Elven Archer.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    I think in part it is simple the fact that the system could not be too complicated to still make the game accessible to those without D&D backgrounds. A lot of players likely had never read a D&D rule book, and differentiating too much without pages of tables and explanations would have simply been confusing. Yes it doesn't make much logical sense, even accounting for in-lore self-coherence. But it sure plays more smoothly than having granularity all over one stat, with various caps and whatnot depending on class and race. Exceptional strength is confusing even as it is to players unfamiliar with the concept.
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 858
    I wonder why there's no Dexterity granularity for rogues, or wisdom granularity for priests, or intelligence granularity for arcanists...
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    Pokota said:

    I wonder why there's no Dexterity granularity for rogues, or wisdom granularity for priests, or intelligence granularity for arcanists...

    Because working out is a tough process, but being smart apparently just... you know... happens.
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,297
    Level limits for non-humans are still a part of 2nd edition.
  • TheGreatKhanTheGreatKhan Member Posts: 106
    edited March 2017
    I'm actually okay with the way the games do it. 19 strength is a good bonus, but it's not insanely beefed up.

    I don't have an old 2nd edition pen and paper book, so I gotta ask if 19 strength is some giant ogre, how insanely strong is someone with 25 strength. That's gotta be something really big. Even though in game I think it's +7 hit and +14 damage.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    TheGreatKhan said:

    I'm actually okay with the way the games do it. 19 strength is a good bonus, but it's not insanely beefed up.

    I don't have an old 2nd edition pen and paper book, so I gotta ask if 19 strength is some giant ogre, how insanely strong is someone with 25 strength. That's gotta be something really big. Even though in game I think it's +7 hit and +14 damage.

    Remember that the 1-25 range covers basically all living creatures. Including things as enormous as dragons, which through size and anatomy alone should be magnitudes stronger than humans. And dragons don't even have 25 STR a lot of the time. Does seem to suggest the scale is non-linear.
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,644
    Ammar said:

    Level limits for non-humans are still a part of 2nd edition.

    Aye but they are inflated an insane amount vs. their first edition counterparts.
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    TheGreatKhan said:

    I'm actually okay with the way the games do it. 19 strength is a good bonus, but it's not insanely beefed up.

    I don't have an old 2nd edition pen and paper book, so I gotta ask if 19 strength is some giant ogre, how insanely strong is someone with 25 strength. That's gotta be something really big. Even though in game I think it's +7 hit and +14 damage.

    At 25 strength we're talking about titan-level strength... Most god avatars didn't have this kind of
    strength..
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
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  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    mlnevese said:

    At 25 strength we're talking about titan-level strength... Most god avatars didn't have this kind of
    strength..

    Story Mode really should be renamed into Ao Mode. It granting the Aospawn 25 strength and all.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    subtledoctor said:

    If implementing exceptional strength correctly was too complicated, then the obvious move (to me, anyway) is to simply not use exceptional strength. Put STR on an integer scale from 3 to 25, like all other stats.

    (Not coincidentally, that's basically what my mod does.)

    Various possible solutions, with pros and cons. Also this is more than a decade of game development experience later. I can understand the compromise they were (apparently) originally going for back then, but I also agree that there are solutions I find better than what they came up with.
  • TheGreatKhanTheGreatKhan Member Posts: 106
    So at 25 it's definitely not linear, sounds more exponential. If the strongest a regular human can go is 18/00 I have a hard time seeing 19-25 not being a much bigger gap than 1-18.

    Now do God's technically count as living beings on the stat scale. I can't imagine anyone taking a punch in the jaw from any God and looking too pretty afterwards.

    Anyone know any books or kits that display this information, I can't seem to google. I really want to read up how 25 rates on all the other stats as well.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    TheGreatKhan said:

    So at 25 it's definitely not linear, sounds more exponential. If the strongest a regular human can go is 18/00 I have a hard time seeing 19-25 not being a much bigger gap than 1-18.

    Now do God's technically count as living beings on the stat scale. I can't imagine anyone taking a punch in the jaw from any God and looking too pretty afterwards.

    Anyone know any books or kits that display this information, I can't seem to google. I really want to read up how 25 rates on all the other stats as well.

    I guess gods stretch the definition of "living" a bit, as do things like golems. Or undead. Fine. "Beings", then. Alive or not, organic or mechanical. You know, anything with a stat score. Gods, I love how clashing D&D with ontology...
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Lord_Tansheron said:

    I think in part it is simple the fact that the system could not be too complicated to still make the game accessible to those without D&D backgrounds. A lot of players likely had never read a D&D rule book, and differentiating too much without pages of tables and explanations would have simply been confusing. Yes it doesn't make much logical sense, even accounting for in-lore self-coherence. But it sure plays more smoothly than having granularity all over one stat, with various caps and whatnot depending on class and race. Exceptional strength is confusing even as it is to players unfamiliar with the concept.

    Like me. I've been playing BG since it came out and I STILL haven't touched pnp.
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,644
    DJKajuru said:

    Although this is a valid discussion, I believe that 3rd edition pretty much solved it by extending attribute scores to over 40 . Half orcs at 1st level were still quite strong capping at str 20, but an ancient red dragon was exponentially stronger being able to reach str 40 or more.

    3rd Edition didn't solve anything :P I just can't get into it man. For all its issues, 1st and 2nd ed will always be my favorite. But I'm biased.
  • Tad_Has_A_Cold_OliveTad_Has_A_Cold_Olive Member Posts: 183
    Considering the main character in BG is a demigod, I don't think being as strong as a giant is too outlandish in that particular case.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    If you think a half-orc with the strength of a hill giant is silly, you should see my War Hulk kit. A halfling War Hulk at level 5 is as strong as a fire giant.
  • VitorVitor Member Posts: 288
    I never knew abot this stats limitations in 1st edition. Really nice call. There is no reason for a half-orc to be naturally stronger than a Hill Giant. You're absolutely right.

    Also, it's very cool the idea of a human like Sarevok (with Str/00), being the maximum natural strength a humanoid could achieve. Even if half-orcs are generally stronger than humans, none of them would achieve the strength of an ogre, if we considere this 1st edition rule.

    I like this idea. I guess I'll edit Dorn's stats in my game to match this limitations.
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,459
    One thing I like about 5e is that stats are capped at 20 (without magic items). So a using 27 point buy to generate a regular human character they have have 16 strength at max. Then at level 4 they can get 18 strength and then at 8 they can have 20 strength. Then the improvements at 12, 16, and 20 they will either have to improve other stats or take feats.
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,938
    HaHaCharade said:

    I've always thought the modification to Half-Orcs to make them capable of being naturally as strong as a Hill Giant (19 Strength) was a bit amusing - I tend to be a bit old school though. I still remember from my pen and paper AD&D days back in college, how humans capped at 18/00 (Ogre Strength) and that was such a small percentile. You literally had to roll (like you do in BG Char Gen) 00 on percentile dice, however unlike BG (which I understand is a video game) you got to roll only once. So you usually had someone with a nat 18/00 every few years at best. Which made sense - given the rarity.

    @HaHaCharade I'm hearing you on FM there, all the way. :) (from an old schooler)
    I miss the limitations on strength for races, madegood sense to me. At least we still have halflings limited to 17.
    Just for the heck of it (from 1st ed DMG)
    Gygax equated the strength score to how much one could lift over the head. 3= 30lbs, 18= 180lbs, + 1 add. lb for ea %pt up to 18(50), +4lbs for ea %pt 18(51) to 18 (90), then +8lbs for ea %pt 18(91)-18(00).
    I think he rated orcs at 12 average.

    I always figured strict military press style as opposed to olympic style (tougher anyway to get a bigger number).

    Now don't anyone hurt themselves next time at the gym figuring out their str score ;)
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    If 18 is the maximum human strength 180 lbs seems quite low.
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